gestalt sorcadin help

[pyromanser244]

I've got a gestalt campaign coming up and I'm toying with different builds. I've looked at sorcadin builds online but they're all built for normal play so I'm not sure how best to take advantage of the gestalt.

thus far I've looked at a build like this (I'm going with a dragon theme on this one) :

paladin 4 / battledancer 1 / dragon disciple 10 / master of the unseen hand 5
sorcerer 5 / abjurant champion 5 / other stuff


this seems a bit rough to me but the idea is simply to make room for the spell augmenting classes without loosing caster levels. thing is I'm fairly certain there are better ways to do this but I'm coming up blank. so am I way off base here? are there better classes or PrCs I'm over looking? how would you build this character?

[Fax Celestis]

You can't PrC on both sides of a gestalt at the same time.

Simple, straightforward recommendation: Sorcerer 20//Paladin 2/Duskblade 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Dragon Disciple 10, with Sherem-Lar and Sherezem-Lar Sorcery (Ghostwalk; both 1st-level feats that make your eyes green, and each increases your effective CHA by +2 for determining spell DCs and bonus spells/day; Sherezem-Lar Sorcery requires Sherem-Lar Sorcery). You get a fat stack of ability mods, passives from all over the place, arcane channeling for gishy smiting, your standard AbjCham goodness, and your draconic theme remains intact. You'll end up with spellcasting as Sorc 20 and Duskblade 8 (and bonus spells peppered throughout one or both as you choose).

[rockdeworld]

I'm going to give WhamBamSam a plug here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=303204) and suggest that instead of Dragon Disciple, you have Steel Dragon HD/LA on one side of the gestalt. Since you have Paladin on the other side, you can easily enter Abjurant Champion too. Battledancer is fine if you want to spend a level to get Cha to AC (which is only +4-+6 without cheese, since gishes can't just focus on Cha), but it doesn't provide much else. Do you want Master of the Unseen hand? It's not bad if you have spellcasting on the other side, but if you're not attached to it, I recommend something more like this:
Paladin 2/Crusader 3/Abjurant Champion 3/Eldritch Knight 2/Abjurant Champion 2/Ruby Knight Vindicator 8//Steel Dragon* HD 4/Cloistered Cleric 1/Jade Pheonix Mage 10/Eldritch Knight 5
*With Loredrake, and with LA Buyoff factored in.
That gives you 20 BAB, 19th level Sorcerer casting, IL 18 with 1 9th level maneuver, and 7th level cleric casting.

Edit: Well I'll be. Fax Celestis is right about PrCs in gestalt, and your DM probably won't let you get away with what I've posted. In that case, I'd recommend something more like this:
Paladin 2/Crusader 4/Sorcerer 2/Crusader 5/Sorcerer 1/Crusader 6//Steel Dragon* HD 4/Sorcerer 1/Jade Pheonix Mage 10/Abjurant Champion 5
*With Loredrake, and with LA Buyoff factored in.
That still gives you 20 BAB, 19th level Sorcerer casting, IL 17 with 1 9th level maneuver, but without the tricks of RVW or free Knowledge Devotion from Cloistered Cleric.

[pyromanser244]

thanks for the point about PrCs. I'll keep it in mind.

master of the unseen hand is something I've always wanted to play with but can only really work in gestalt. it's just part of my D&D bucket list. it could go on another character with no real problem.

I'm a little surprised how many maneuvers you fit in there. that would give me some more options...... now I have some thinking to do.

[rockdeworld]

master of the unseen hand is something I've always wanted to play with but can only really work in gestalt. it's just part of my D&D bucket list. it could go on another character with no real problem.
That can still work then, it just drops your max JPM level to 9:
Paladin 2/Sorcerer 1/Crusader 3/Sorcerer 1/Crusader 3/Sorcerer 5/Crusader 1/Sorcerer 1/Crusader 4//Steel Dragon HD 4/Sorcerer 1/Abjurant Champion 1/Jade Pheonix Mage 4/Master of the Unseen Hand 5/JPM 5

This build gets level 20 sorcerer casting, still has IL 17 and a 9th level maneuver thanks to JPM, and-

[Xuldarinar]

Jade Phoenix mage isn't necessarily legal in gestalt because:




A gestalt character can't combine two prestige classes at any level, although it's okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you're using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what's already a high-powered variant. Because it's possible for gestalt characters to qualify for prestige classes earlier than normal, the DM is entirely justified in toughening the prerequisites of a prestige class so it's available only after 5th level, even for gestalt characters.



That is something that should be avoided unless/until the DM has said it is ok. Keep that in mind.


I will suggest, if you use more than 1 arcane spellcasting class in a build, dipping into spellthief and taking the master spell thief feat. Arcane spellcaster levels then all stack for caster levels, casting is permitted in at least light armor (Throw on battle caster to allow for at least medium armor for all arcane spells) and the steal spell wouldn't hurt to have. Perhaps 1st level to better capitalize on the skill points.

[Gadora]

One nice thing about a gestalt sorcadin is that you might be able to find room for a level or three of marshal. Motivate Dexterity would get your charisma to your entire party's initiative, while Determined Caster could be a very useful thing to have in your toolbox, depending on how often you run into SR.

[Oscredwin]

Jade Phoenix mage isn't necessarily legal in gestalt because:

[QUOTE]A gestalt character can't combine two prestige classes at any level, although it's okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you're using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what's already a high-powered variant. Because it's possible for gestalt characters to qualify for prestige classes earlier than normal, the DM is entirely justified in toughening the prerequisites of a prestige class so it's available only after 5th level, even for gestalt characters

That is something that should be avoided unless/until the DM has said it is ok. Keep that in mind.
/QUOTE]

This is where I like to point out that gastalt rules recommend custom "super" PrCs that take up both sides of the character. For Jade Phoenix Mage I would think increase the HD to d8, give it full casting, a good well save, and 4 skill points per level.

That's a little on the weak side (compare to straight crusader/sorcerer levels, the HD goes from d10 to d8, and you're trading crusader class features for JPM ones, and losing disciplines). Anyway, this is an option that often gets neglected.

[Xuldarinar]

No argument what so ever. Personally, speaking of that, I would love to see some people home brewing classes and PrCs specifically designed for gestalt campaigns, taking up both sides.