Ways to optimize a net?

[CyberThread]

So curious, how an you optimize the use of a net, if your build uses it allot?

[Darrin]

So curious, how an you optimize the use of a net, if your build uses it allot?

First, ask your DM if the Dex penalty from multiple sources of "entanglement" stack. If three nets incur a -12 Dex penalty, that can immobilize most dragons. If your DM says that won't work because they're from the same source, ask him about net + lasso + tanglefoot bag + web spell + entangling exhalation + etc. If at least three of those count as separate "sources" that stack... immobilized enemy = ready for coup de grace.

From a recent post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16094742&postcount=12):

TWF Net-and-Trident: This build uses a weapon style feat to get a second 5' step after throwing a net, triggering Skirmish damage. It's a bit too tight on feats, though, so you have to use the Planar Ranger variant (Planar Handbook) to get Knowledge: the Planes 8, which allows you to take the Planar Touchstone feat and grab EWP:Net + WF:Net from the War domain power. If your character's religion might be a sticking point, you can choose to worship Istus (Living Greyhawk Deities 2.0), Sotillion (Living Greyhawk Deities 2.0), or Marduk (Sandstorm), all of whom have Favored Weapon: Net.

Race: Human, Azurin, Strongheart Halfing, Frostblood Orc/Half-Orc
1) Ranger 1. Feat: Travel Devotion, Bonus: Weapon Focus Trident, Bonus: Track
2) Ranger 2. Bonus: TWF
3) Scout 1. Feat: Quickdraw. Skirmish 1d6
4) Scout 2. Skirmish 1d6.
5) Scout 3. Skirmish 1d6AC+1
6) Scout 4. Feat: Swift Hunter. Bonus: Planar Touchstone -> War Domain (Net). Skirmish 2d6AC+1.
7) Ranger 3. Bonus: Endurance. Skirmish 2d6AC+2
8) Exotic Weapon Master 1. Close-Quarters Ranged Combat.
9) Ranger 4. Feat: Net and Trident Style
10) Ranger 5. Skirmish 3d6AC+2
11) Ranger 6. Bonus: Imp. TWF
12) Highland Stalker 1. Feat: Oversize TWF
13) Highland Stalker 2. Skirmish 4d6AC+2
14) Ranger 7. Skirmish 4d6AC+3
15) Ranger 8. Feat: Improved Skirmish
16) Ranger 9. Skirmish 5d6AC+3/7d6AC+5
17) Ranger 10.
18) Ranger 11. Feat: Travel Devotion (x2). Bonus: Gr. TWF. Skirmish 6d6AC+4/8d6AC+6
19) Ranger 12.
20) Ranger 13. Skirmish 7d6AC+4/9d6AC+6


And here's some thoughts on nets from an older thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11113990):

Make the nets out of aurorum (BoED, full-round action to reform) or riverine (immune to normal damage, thus unbreakable).

Razor nets do 1d6 damage (medium size) whenever the target attempts to escape or break free. EWP: Net also applies to razor nets. Aurorum razor nets should be reformable (+4000 GP per net), but check if your DM will allow riverine (2000 GP/lb, 6 lb net = +12000 GP).

Grippli (Dragon #262) treat nets and bolas as martial weapons, although they are small-sized. Unlike lassos, nets are very size-dependent, but you can offset that with Strongarm Bracers or just sucking up the offsize-weapon penalty (ranged touch attacks are usually easier to hit with, particularly since touch AC tends to go DOWN as CR goes UP).

Aquatic Elves are probably the ideal race for this style, since they gain proficiency with nets and tridents as racial bonus feats. Add the Amphibious template for -2 Dex and you can get rid of the annoying "can only breath air for 1 hour per point of Con" restriction, although this leaves you with Int -2 as your only attribute mods.

Buy a Collar of Perpetual Attendance (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c) and give your unseen servant standing orders to manage your nets: reform any broken aurorum nets, pick up any unattended nets, fold them (takes 4 rounds), bring them back to you, stuff them back into your pack, etc.

You can add augment crystals to the nets. Least Crystal of Return (300 GP, MIC p. 65) can be attached to any masterwork net to allow you to draw it as a free action without blowing a feat on Quickdraw. If the net gets destroyed, shrug and pick up your augment crystal, attach it to another masterwork net later.

Crystal of Energy Assault is somewhat trickier, since the net itself doesn't do damage, and the razor net only does damage when the target attempts to escape/break the net. You may be able to get around this by making the net out of an exotic material, such as Hizagkuur (+1500 GP, Magic of Faerun p. 179, +1 electrical and +1 fire damage on each hit), Rimefire Ice (+750 GP, Frostburn p. 80, +1 cold damage per round of contact) or Stygian Ice (+6000 GP, Frostburn p. 81, +1d6 cold damage per round of contact). However, it's not clear if any of those materials can be used to make something as flexible as a net/razor net, which will require some negotiation with the DM. It also prevents you from using aurorum or riverine, which may be the only decent way to repair or prevent a magical net from being broken.

Phoenix Ash Threat crystal works well enough if you want the net to do *some* kind of damage and don't care if it happens on the next round. I'm not entirely sure what happens if the target is immobilized, staggered, or otherwise unable to escape... common sense should say they keep burning, but RAW suggests that they only take damage on the round after the weapon hits, and unless the target is actively attempting to escape from a razor net every round, a net only "hits" on the round you throw it. A razor net will get at least two "hits" (once when you throw, and at least once more when the target escapes/breaks out). For a lesser crystal, this is 3 damage per hit, but that requires at least a +1 weapon, which could get pretty expensive if your nets aren't made out of aurorum.

Truedeath Crystal might have some interesting possibilities, particularly against something like zombies that can't take full-round actions and thus can't escape. It's not clear if the +1d6 damage is per hit or just by contact, but if the latter, then a Lesser Truedeath vs. incorporeal undead could work very nicely, since incorporeal creatures can't break the net (no Str score).

Nets and lassos are ideal for setting up a Blister Oil Bomb (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168100) (15 GP for 1d8 applications, Races of Stone p. 159). The Fort save DC 15 is still hopelessly low, but add Sovereign Glue (2400 GP, DMG) and the target will eventually blow a Fort save.

Spell Storing is the ideal enchantment for a net, and an easy way to add damage to the attack. Even easier is a Glyph Seal or Greater Glyph Seal (1000/4000 GP, MIC p. 161). Set the trigger to "anyone other than me who touches the net" and you can get around the "must be a targeted spell" restriction for Spell Storing. Plus, unlike an augment crystal the Glyph Seal doesn't require a particular enhancement bonus on the weapon, and if the net gets broken/destroyed, you can just pick up the Glyph Seal and attach it to another net later. Hmm... let's start with:

Masterwork net, 320 GP
Least Crystal of Return, 300 GP
Glyph Seal, 1000 GP
Total: 1620 GP

Wand of make whole, 750 GP (1st level spell via Balance domain) until you can afford an Aurorum razor net:

Masterwork razor net, 350 GP
Aurorum, 4000 GP
Least Crystal of Return, 300 GP
Glyph Seal, 1000 GP
Greater Glyph Seal, 4000 GP (who says you can't have both?)
+2 enhancement, 8000 GP (+1 weapon, Spell Storing)
Total: 17650 GP

[CyberThread]

Frostblood orc?

and what about seakin that get free proficiency for the item?

[Darrin]

Frostblood orc?


From Dragon Magic. They get Endurance as a bonus feat, but in the text it says if they gain Endurance later (such as through a class ability), they can take any bonus feat they qualify for instead.

There's an optimization trick you may be able to use with Dragonborn of Bahumat. Normally, when a creature goes through the Ritual of Rebirth, they lose almost all of their original racial abilities, including bonus feats. However, while Frostblood Orcs/Half-Orcs lose Endurance as a racial bonus feat, they keep the other bonus feat they got from, for example, taking three levels of Ranger. If you already know you're going to take at least three levels of Ranger, then this is essentially the same as getting a bonus feat as a Human or Strongheart Halfling. Only you get to keep it if you go Dragonborn. And it can also come in handy if you need to grab a particular bonus feat early, but couldn't qualify for it at 1st level, such as: Sword of the Arcane Order, Superior Unarmed Strike, or Improved Natural Attack.


and what about seakin that get free proficiency for the item?

Huh. Missed them for some reason. Yes, that would work, although you still have to make sure you get submerged at least once a week. However, you don't really get ahead on feats: a Sea Kin proficient with nets still gets the same amount of feats as a Human that has to spend his bonus feat on EWP: Net.

[Person_Man]

A net is generally a waste of an action against mooks (just kill them) and is most useful against spellcasters and boss enemies (which presumably will either try to move away from you if you don't kill them in one turn, and/or will take multiple turns to kill).

Darrin's advice is solid as always.

I would add that it's not that hard to deal Dex penalty/damage from a variety of different sources:

Shivering Touch (Frostburn pg. 104):No Save, 3rd level spell, deals 3d6 Dex damage.
Net (SRD): Touch Attack to Entangle (-4 penalty to Dex). But note that nets, razor nets, and lasso can't effect creatures more then one size category different then you.
Razor Net (Dragon Comp p. 115):Touch Attack to Entangle.
Lasso (BoED p. 34): Touch Attack to Entangle.
Quick Draw (SRD): Needed for making a full attack with thrown weapons.
Spell Storing Weapon (SRD): Useful for delivering spells with weapons, like a net.
Tanglefoot Bag (SRD): Ref Save or Entangled.
Smiting Spell (PHBII):Useful for delivering spells with weapons.
Entangle (SRD): Ref Save or Entangled.
Briar Web (Com Div p 156): Cler 3/Dru 2/Ran 2: Ref Save or Entangled + 1d6 poison Dex damage.
Entangling Spell (Champ of Ruin): +2 LA, any creature damaged by an energy spell is also Entangled for 1 round, No Save.
Touch of Fatigue: Fort Save or Fatigued. Enemy who is already Fatigued becomes Exhausted.
Ray of Exhaustion: Touch Attack makes enemy Exhausted. Successful Fort Save still leaves you Fatigued.
Dragonborn (Races of Dragon): +0 LA race with Ref Save breath weapon.
Entangling Exhalation (Races of Dragon p 101): Breath weapon Entangles.
Quicken Breath (Draconomicon p 73): Quickens breath weapon.
Entangling Ectoplasm (SRD): Touch Attack Entangles.
Ghost template (SRD, +5 LA): Horrific Appearance deals 1d4 Str, Dex, and Con damage
Corrupting Touch (Ghostwalk): Touch Attack deals 1d4 Dex damage.
Empowered Ability Damage (Libris Mortis, reqs incorporeal undead type): Ability damage deals +50% damage.
Rope of Entanglement (SRD): No Save or attack roll, Entangles.
Poison: Many poisons deal Dex damage.
Poison Master (Comp Scoundrel): Poison deals +1 ability damage per die.
Touch of Golden Ice (BoED): Evil enemies hit with unarmed or natural attacks must Save (DC 14 Fort) or take 1d6 Dex damage.
Wild Shape/Alter Self/Polymorph: Turn into something that deals Dex damage, like a Giant Centipede or Scorpion Folk or Ettercap, and/or have one as an animal companion or cohort or whatnot.
Death Blow (Comp Advent p 106): Coup de Grace as a Standard Action.

[Fitz10019]

net + lasso + tanglefoot bag + web spell + entangling exhalation + etc.

Animate Rope is a 1st-level-spell that could be cast on stronger things, as long as they're rope-like.