Why Wisdom, Not Charisma, For Will?

[Lorick]

Why does Wisdom give the bonus to will saving throws instead of Charisma? Or, perhaps the overarching question I have is whether I understand these abilities or not.
Charisma represents ones sense of self, and force of personality. SRD says "Any creature capable of telling the difference between itself and things that are not itself has at least 1 point of Charisma." So at its very core, Charisma is about personal perception, while Wisdom is outside perception.
It stands to reason, then, that willpower should be governed by Charisma. Why is does Wisdom give the bonus instead?

[Fates]

Frankly, I'm with you on this- I don't think it makes much sense, and I can't truly fathom the thought process that lead to wisdom being chosen. There does exist the Force of Personality feat, which allows charisma to be used rather than wisdom for will saves. In my campaign, I borrow from 4e and allow players to use wisdom or charisma on will saves, dexterity or intelligence on reflex saves, and constitution or strength on fortitude saves. It's hardly a perfect system, but my players are fairly low-op so it doesn't cause much trouble.

[thethird]

It is unfair to quote the SRD on Charisma but not on Wisdom, so let me fix that.

Wisdom (Wis) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm)
Wisdom describes a character's willpower [...]

You might want to look into the force of personality feat from compete adventurer.

[Sayt]

To be honest, Wis and Cha have a lot of messy conflation.

To my perspective, Cha was the ability to project your will onto other people, through the Social Skills (Or existences, a la Sorcerer and Bard spells.), whereas wisdom represents not only your perception of external stimuli, but also your ability to self-perceive, and also the internal, rather than external, force of personality. In a way, I think of Cha as being the Mind's Strength, and Wis as the Mind's Con.

It is, of course, subjective, however.

[Lorick]

In a way, I think of Cha as being the Mind's Strength, and Wis as the Mind's Con.

It is, of course, subjective, however.

Funny you should say that, I've always thought of CHA as Mental Strength, WIS as DEX (alertness being akin to reflexes) and INT as CON (being the overall reserve you draw on).
I also see Willpower as Mental Strength, hence the question.

[BWR]

Speaking as someone has met more than one charismatic person with no backbone to speak of, I think it very fitting that Will saves are not keyed off Charisma.

[SimonMoon6]

This has bugged me for a long time. If I were in charge, I'd take all the "mental strength" parts out of willpower, put it into Charisma, and then we could get rid of the silly Wisdom stat completely, replacing it with a Perception stat.

[Keneth]

Do you use Strength for you Fortitude saves? Then why would you use Charisma for your Will saves?

Cha to Str, Int to Dex, Wis to Con.

[The Viscount]

Please note that Force of personality only substitutes Cha for Wis for mind affecting will saves. This is still a good number, but there are still will saves that you will have to make based on Wis.

As for why Wis is for will saves instead of Cha, I have both an in-game and out-of-game way of thinking about it.

In-game, Wisdom is a measure of (in addition to willpower as mentioned above) common sense and perception. When you make a will save against an illusion, you are realizing the little flaws, how it clashes against the background, etc. When you make your save to resist a charm spell, you realize it is not sensible that the man you just met is your closest friend. Willpower fills in for the others.

As for the out-of-game reason, because wisdom needed a reason to be important. All the abilities affect some skill or another, but wisdom only comes in there and in will saves for your non-caster non-monk character. Cha isn't substituted because Cha isn't needed for anything on a basic sheet, though you can make it apply to the most things with some effort. Wis needed to be needed like the other states so people couldn't safely dump it like Cha.

[The Insanity]

It is unfair to quote the SRD on Charisma but not on Wisdom, so let me fix that.

Wisdom (Wis) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm)
Wisdom describes a character's willpower [...]
Obviously, it says so because by RAW Wisdom governs Will, duh. His point is that by the ability description it makes more sense for Charisma to govern Will. I agree with that and have houseruled it so a while ago.


You might want to look into the force of personality feat from compete adventurer.
It only works on mind-affecting spells and abilities.


Do you use Strength for you Fortitude saves? Then why would you use Charisma for your Will saves?
It makes more sense.


As for the out-of-game reason, because wisdom needed a reason to be important. All the abilities affect some skill or another, but wisdom only comes in there and in will saves for your non-caster non-monk character. Cha isn't substituted because Cha isn't needed for anything on a basic sheet, though you can make it apply to the most things with some effort. Wis needed to be needed like the other states so people couldn't safely dump it like Cha.
I prefer Charisma to be important.

[Cambrian]

To use a real world example: there are numerous examples of rockstars that just drip with personality (Charisma) but struggle or have struggled for long periods with substance addiction (Wisdom).

There are some overlaps between all 3 of INT, WIS, and CHA but ultimately Wisdom for WILL saves is the right choice.

[Keneth]

It makes more sense.

It makes virtually no sense to me. Being charismatic gives you no domain over your willpower, just like being physically strong doesn't make it any easier to fight off disease.

Wisdom makes at least some sense, though admittedly not quite as much as one would like.

[TuggyNE]

Vadskye had a homebrew thread about this, in which much discussion was had by all.

Personally, I consider the perceptiveness and clarity of instinct given by Wisdom more important than the ability to press one's decisions given by Charisma; Wis defines your will, and Cha carries it out.


Obviously, it says so because by RAW Wisdom governs Will, duh. His point is that by the ability description it makes more sense for Charisma to govern Will.

… and so we should fix the parts of the ability descriptions that disagree with that?

Right, that makes sense! :smalltongue:

[Alberic Strein]

To use a real world example: there are numerous examples of rockstars that just drip with personality (Charisma) but struggle or have struggled for long periods with substance addiction (Wisdom).

There are some overlaps between all 3 of INT, WIS, and CHA but ultimately Wisdom for WILL saves is the right choice.

To be fair, the save DC against drugs is pretty epic.

More seriously though, charisma as we use it in common language and the ability "charisma" in the rules are not the same things. In the real world, you can consider a rockstar charismatic.

In d&d a sorcerer can bend/break/enforce the laws of nature. Because he wills it. And nature knows better than to talk back.

Anyway, I agree with what was previously said, but most with Simon. I think Wisdom does waaaay too much and Charisma not enough.

Wisdom is force of will + acuity + savvyness + intuition + common sense (well, adventurers typically don't have any, but in theory it does that)

Charisma is social skills + a dash of mental fortitude

Put the mental willpower with the strength of character in charisma and let the rest in wisdom to even things out.

Personally, I like to let will based saved be done with charisma.

Wisdom is understanding that something is off by intuition and the ability to see every little bit that isn't how it should be.

Charisma would be having such strength of character that the spell does not manage to "imprint" it's image on the would-be-victim's mind.

[CIDE]

All the above comments in support of wis staying for will make me wonder once again why UMD is Cha. Makes absolutely no @$# %$# !@#$%$%#@!@!$# sense to me. Even if people have tried backing that up before.

[Jack_Simth]

To be fair, the value of the various stats for a commoner is out of balance.
Str: Melee Attack, Damage, carrying Capacity.
Dex: Ranged Attack, AC, Reflex Saves, Initiative
Con: HP, Fort saves
Int: Skill Points
Wis: Will saves
Cha: -

If we move, say, Initiative to Wisdom (seeing things in time) and Will saves to Charisma (knowing yourself in addition to others), then Charisma stops being a near-universal dump stat.

[The Insanity]

It makes virtually no sense to me.
It makes more than enough sense to me.


Being charismatic gives you no domain over your willpower, just like being physically strong doesn't make it any easier to fight off disease.
Making analogies between physical and mental stats is all fine and dandy, but is in the end kinda irrelevant, because if Cha is the mental Str then why do Clerics and Wizards and Favored Souls and Beguilers, etc. not use Cha for DCs like Sorcs, hm?


… and so we should fix the parts of the ability descriptions that disagree with that?

Right, that makes sense! :smalltongue:
No. Wisdom's description says it describes a character's willpower because they already decided that by the rules Wisdom governs Will, not the other way around.

[Alberic Strein]

All the above comments in support of wis staying for will make me wonder once again why UMD is Cha. Makes absolutely no @$# %$# !@#$%$%#@!@!$# sense to me. Even if people have tried backing that up before.

Same as the laws of nature, really.

"Okay you damn rod of restoration, you're going to work and you're going to work NOW !"

And the little b*tch knew better than to talk back.

Charisma represents your ability to force your will on the world. A normal human can only do it through "language" (even not vocal). Magic releases those limitations.


Ps : I approve of Jack Smith's array.

[CIDE]

Same as the laws of nature, really.

"Okay you damn rod of restoration, you're going to work and you're going to work NOW !"

And the little b*tch knew better than to talk back.

Charisma represents your ability to force your will on the world. A normal human can only do it through "language" (even not vocal). Magic releases those limitations.


Ps : I approve of Jack Smith's array.


That still doesn't make sense and we're not saying "Popo!" to the wind in our hand. We aren't charming the wand either. It's an inanimate object that should be forced to do its thing by willpower. Why would having a good and likable personality have anything to do with forcing an inanimate object to do something? Does that mean a 60 in Cha means I could make the rocks move out of my way 'cause I'm a smooth talker?

[JaronK]

Mental - Physical

Wisdom - Constitution
Charisma - Strength
Intelligence - Dexterity.

Wisdom is your ability to mentally resist things you don't like, while constitution is your ability to physically resist them. Charisma is your ability to directly influence the world mentally, while Strength is your ability to directly influence the world physically. Makes sense?

JaronK

[TuggyNE]

That still doesn't make sense and we're not saying "Popo!" to the wind in our hand. We aren't charming the wand either. It's an inanimate object that should be forced to do its thing by willpower. Why would having a good and likable personality have anything to do with forcing an inanimate object to do something? Does that mean a 60 in Cha means I could make the rocks move out of my way 'cause I'm a smooth talker?

It's not about a likeable personality, it's about a strong, forcible personality.

[Winter_Wolf]

I see wisdom as being able to recognize when something isn't right; i.e. you know BS when you see/hear it.

I see charisma as being able to convince other people of things regardless of whether it's a good idea, logical, or even true; i.e. being good at BSing people.

Plenty of people are great at convincing others to do things against their better judgement or common sense, but themselves are exemplars of poor judgement.

And that's how I see wisdom as a better choice for influencing Will saves than charisma.

[Lorick]

Mental - Physical

Wisdom - Constitution
Charisma - Strength
Intelligence - Dexterity.

Wisdom is your ability to mentally resist things you don't like, while constitution is your ability to physically resist them. Charisma is your ability to directly influence the world mentally, while Strength is your ability to directly influence the world physically. Makes sense?

JaronK

Wisdom is much more about perception of things around you. The dividing point between having Wisdom and not having it is being able to distinguish your surroundings from yourself.
Also, the Mental to Physical analogy falls, because its much easier for us to define physical things than mental things. You define Willpower as resisting bad things, while I could call it pushing through bad things (CHA/STR, a single burst, like sprinting or jumping) or avoiding bad things (INT/DEX, like having Slippery Mind suggests).
Lastly, I don't see the Intelligence - Dexterity parallel you draw.

[Raimun]

Charisma is the main stat used for social situations. If a character has a high Cha, he knows which strings to pull when dealing with people. They find his personality reassuring, imposing, trustworthy or whatever is the impression he is trying to make. This doesn't have that much to do with willpower.

For example, if you are trying to bluff someone, no amount of willpower is going to help you with that. You need to sound trustworthy. That has more to do with how you present yourself, how your sound resonates, what facts (if any) you are bringing up, etc. In a word, guile.

The same is true with Diplomacy and even Intimidate. No amount of just willing it can make people like you more or fear you. You have to "know" how people tick and use that "knowledge" in that situation to your advantage.

Like many people have pointed out, there are lots of charismatic people with little willpower.

Besides, Charisma is not bad stat. Sure, you can't (usually) swing your sword better with it but that's not how you use it anyway.

[Milo v3]

That still doesn't make sense and we're not saying "Popo!" to the wind in our hand. We aren't charming the wand either. It's an inanimate object that should be forced to do its thing by willpower. Why would having a good and likable personality have anything to do with forcing an inanimate object to do something? Does that mean a 60 in Cha means I could make the rocks move out of my way 'cause I'm a smooth talker?

Firstly, MAGIC ITEM :smallbiggrin:
Secondly, sorcerer needs 16 charisma to cast Move Earth not 60. :smalltongue:

[Alberic Strein]

That still doesn't make sense and we're not saying "Popo!" to the wind in our hand. We aren't charming the wand either. It's an inanimate object that should be forced to do its thing by willpower. Why would having a good and likable personality have anything to do with forcing an inanimate object to do something? Does that mean a 60 in Cha means I could make the rocks move out of my way 'cause I'm a smooth talker?

Words is one of the ways to communicate and is consequently a prefered medium between your mind and the rest of the world, but it's not the only way to. Also, charisma is not limited to being "likable". It's the part of you that makes the world dance to your tune.

Yeah, you convince that bandit that you're way more likable that the rest of his friends and that he would live happier (and longer) as your cohort.

You also convince the raging bear to chill the hell out.

You also convince the fiend that since your focus is charisma, odds are you're a sorcerer and that it is in his best interests to NOT piss you off if he doesn't want to taste the equivalent of 10 nuclear warheads.

You also convince the scrying spell that you're actually a very respectable noble from a very well known family, and without uttering a single word.

You also convince anyone ever that you're sincere.

So, UMD ? UMD ranks teach you the "language" of magic items, so yeah, once "communication" is established ? You convince the magic inside that rod to do your bidding like it would do for a mage.

Being a sorcerer teaches you the language of the world. IE Magic. So yeah, eventually, you open your hand and convince the wind to do whatever you want it to. And it better damn enjoy being called "popo".

PS : One of my very first interpretations of UMD was that it was a sort bluff check

"If I'm a mage? Of COURSE I'm a mage! The activation word? You don't need no activation word."

[Ravens_cry]

Whatever you call them, I am glad the two stats are distinct. I bet we can all imagine a successful politician who tends to fold when in actual dangerous situations, or a stolid, grumpy type with a mind of granite.

[AmberVael]

In my campaign, I borrow from 4e and allow players to use wisdom or charisma on will saves, dexterity or intelligence on reflex saves, and constitution or strength on fortitude saves.

I'm a fan of this too, especially since how characters approach problems and challenges can be quite divergent. An ascetic monk might resist an illusion through insight, wisdom, and perception, while the larger than life badass hero (http://beneaththetangles.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/kamina.jpg) might resist through sheer force of personality. Your paper thin lies aren't reality enough for this much awesome! :smalltongue:

[The Insanity]

For example, if you are trying to bluff someone, no amount of willpower is going to help you with that.
You impose the power of your will on them. Thus, Willpower.


Sure, you can't (usually) swing your sword better with it but that's not how you use it anyway.
No one is saying that, so I don't know what's your point.

[Alberic Strein]

Whatever you call them, I am glad the two stats are distinct. I bet we can all imagine a successful politician who tends to fold when in actual dangerous situations, or a stolid, grumpy type with a mind of granite.

True, but as a game, I don't think that's necessary. A skilled politician that would serve for a social encounter would need to have a good sense motive/will save anyway. Since you can't put points in every stat, having one be way less useful than the others is bad.

Actually, I almost find that your examples work better this CHA as WILL.

The solid grumpy type can simply never have put a point in diplomacy, so a high cha would do with his mind of granite AND the intimidation powers that come with it. The silent and stubborn types can be quite fearful.

The politician, actually, can have a relatively low CHA, he doesn't have a strong personnality. However, he got skill focus : Diplomacy and Bluff and put all his skills points in them to have them maxed out for his level. He is not particularly charismatic, but a strong orator.

[Raimun]

You impose the power of your will on them. Thus, Willpower.

It doesn't work that way.

That's like claiming sword fighting is done with willpower, because you are imposing your will on them, your will being that they are hit by your sword.

[The Insanity]

It doesn't work that way.
Except it works exactly that way and silly hyperbole doesn't change that.

[Raimun]

Except it works exactly that way and silly hyperbole doesn't change that.

Let me get this straight, you are actually now proving my point?

[The Insanity]

Um, no? What gave you that idea? What even is your point? Do you have one?

[Fiery Diamond]

It's not about a likeable personality, it's about a strong, forcible personality.

Except "strong, forcible personality" has absolutely nothing to do with charisma in the real world, and if that is what's meant by Charisma is the game, then it should also be tied to mental defense: offense is the best defense and all that jazz, ESPECIALLY when it comes to mental stuff.

Note: that wasn't directed at you.

[JaronK]

Insanity, he pointed out that you're using "Willpower" wrong. It doesn't mean "ability to impose your will on others." Claiming that the ability to impose your will on others through force of personality is willpower is the same as claiming that the ability to impose your will on others through force of arms is willpower... both are nonsensical. Then you seemed to agree with this.

JaronK

[Alberic Strein]

Except "strong, forcible personality" has absolutely nothing to do with charisma in the real world, and if that is what's meant by Charisma is the game, then it should also be tied to mental defense: offense is the best defense and all that jazz, ESPECIALLY when it comes to mental stuff.

My point exactly.

When some thug tries to intimidate you, it's not about sensing the motive or intuitively understanding something, it's about strength of personality (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Charisma), refusing to take that crap from him, and confronting him with your own intimidation to have him back the hell off (litteraly, if you're a wizard and in a bad mood)

Charisma as a stat is not "charisma" as we understand it in common language.

[JaronK]

Imagine a used car salesman being threatened by a physically superior opponent. He may have plenty of ability to get charismatic, but panic in such a situation.

Now imagine the standard strong, silent type. Nobody pushes him around. But that doesn't mean he can sell you a car.

JaronK

[The Insanity]

Insanity, he pointed out that you're using "Willpower" wrong. It doesn't mean "ability to impose your will on others."
By what definition?
I understand that by RAW in D&D Willpower is a defensive thing. But for me there's no difference between the power of will to defend your mind and the power of will to impose it on someone else.Will is Will. So I use Cha as both an offensive thing and a defensive thing.


Imagine a used car salesman being threatened by a physically superior opponent. He may have plenty of ability to get charismatic, but panic in such a situation.

Now imagine the standard strong, silent type. Nobody pushes him around. But that doesn't mean he can sell you a car.

JaronK
D&D doesn't have to (and often does not) correspond to reality that good. In RL charismatic people don't have to be strong-willed. In (my) D&D games they are. Just like a master craftsman is tougher and better at fighting (higher ranks mean higher level mean higher hp and BaB and saves).

[Stux]

for me there's no difference between the power of will to defend your mind and the power of will to impose it on someone else

contradicts


In RL charismatic people don't have to be strong-willed.


In (my) D&D games they are.

Awesome, good for you. That isn't how the game works for everyone else though. For most people, as the rules were designed, ability to 'defend' mentally and ability to 'attack' mentally are different, with some people being better at one than the other. As people have already illustrated with excellent examples this is something that you can clearly see in real life personality types. Sure there are things that the game doesn't model about the real world, but that isn't at all a reason to remove a nuance of real life that it DOES model.

[Alberic Strein]

Imagine a used car salesman being threatened by a physically superior opponent. He may have plenty of ability to get charismatic, but panic in such a situation.

Now imagine the standard strong, silent type. Nobody pushes him around. But that doesn't mean he can sell you a car.

JaronK

I stand by my previous point : The car salesman is not being charismatic, he is using diplomacy (or bluff, double check the car). Diplomacy is made better with a high CHA score, but can function (quite well) without.

The strong silent type gives off the vibe "I know what I think, and I'm not moving." that, and I'm trying not to play on words here, is exactly what strength of personalty is! He just doesn't have a single rank in diplomacy, meaning that yeah, car selling is not his forte. Staring you down? Not back down when you pressure him? That he can do easily.

Again, the strong silent type I can see with a good charisma score, but no ranks in diplomacy, and the car seller with a not-so-stellar charisma that is good at his job.

Actually, the car seller is doing his job in your example... So wouldn't he make a wisdom based test and not a charisma based one ?

[The Insanity]

contradicts
Um... how? You know that I was talking about will in the game, not RL, right?


That isn't how the game works for everyone else though.
Err, I don't care? You do realize that we are talking about a potential houserule here? A houserule that I made to my game and am just trying to explain why?

[Stux]

Err, you do realize that we are talking about a potential houserule here? A houserule that I made to my game and am just trying to explain why?

Totally. However:


JaronK pointed out examples of how someone could be good at imposing their will but not defending against the will of others. Or vice versa.
Your response was that yes, in real life someone can be charismatic but not have strength of will.
You also acknowledge that D&D does not model everything about real life totally accurately, which is true.
But you then use point 3 as justification for implementing a house rule that only serves to move away from point 2.


This makes no sense. There is absolutely no reason to make the way that D&D models social interaction less nuanced and accurate simply because it is not perfectly nuanced and accurate. Surely this house rule makes that worse?

[Thanatosia]

You might want to look into the force of personality feat from compete adventurer.
It only works on mind-affecting spells and abilities.
Is there anything that provokes a will save that isn't mind-affecting?

[The Insanity]

JaronK pointed out examples of how someone could be good at imposing their will but not defending against the will of others. Or vice versa.
Which are based on RL. This is D&D.


Your response was that yes, in real life someone can be charismatic but not have strength of will.
So?


You also acknowledge that D&D does not model everything about real life totally accurately, which is true.
Yeah.


But you then use point 3 as justification for implementing a house rule that only serves to move away from point 2.
Yes. So?


This makes no sense. There is absolutely no reason to make the way that D&D models social interaction less nuanced and accurate simply because it is not perfectly nuanced and accurate.
There is a reason - it makes more sense to me.


Surely this house rule makes that worse?
Maybe it does. So?


Is there anything that provokes a will save that isn't mind-affecting?
I won't give you examples, because I'm too lazy (and someone probably will do it for me), but I know there are some.

[CyberThread]

they both start with w

[ben-zayb]

Aren't we done (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=280482) with this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32568) already (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166992)? :smallbiggrin:


Mental - Physical

Wisdom - Constitution
Charisma - Strength
Intelligence - Dexterity.

Wisdom is your ability to mentally resist things you don't like, while constitution is your ability to physically resist them. Charisma is your ability to directly influence the world mentally, while Strength is your ability to directly influence the world physically. Makes sense?

JaronK
Basically this. A thousand times. Another neat point of view for stats explanation is here in NWoD (http://wiki.white-wolf.com/worldofdarkness/index.php?title=Attributes_%28World_of_Darkness%29 ), although it further separates Mental and Social, the latter of which I believe is the reason why some people may categorize "D&D Charisma" with "Composure". Some would argue that "Composure" and "Resolve" is Wisdom, though YMMV.

[Alberic Strein]

Totally. However:


JaronK pointed out examples of how someone could be good at imposing their will but not defending against the will of others. Or vice versa.
Your response was that yes, in real life someone can be charismatic but not have strength of will.
You also acknowledge that D&D does not model everything about real life totally accurately, which is true.
But you then use point 3 as justification for implementing a house rule that only serves to move away from point 2.


This makes no sense. There is absolutely no reason to make the way that D&D models social interaction less nuanced and accurate simply because it is not perfectly nuanced and accurate. Surely this house rule makes that worse?

Because CHA is completely useless.

And because the two abilities overlap and yet CHA gets nothing, it is supposed to be the "strength of your personalty" but it is not. WIS is. So, since taking that away from CHA would be kicking the dog, why not take the bit overlapping away from WIS to give it to CHA ?

Social encounters remain nuanced, since your class has a pretty big say in your will save, among others and CHA stops being the absolute dump stat.

[ben-zayb]

Because CHA is completely useless.

And because the two abilities overlap and yet CHA gets nothing, it is supposed to be the "strength of your personalty" but it is not. WIS is. So, since taking that away from CHA would be kicking the dog, why not take the bit overlapping away from WIS to give it to CHA ?

Social encounters remain nuanced, since your class has a pretty big say in your will save, among others and CHA stops being the absolute dump stat.

If the main complaint for Will Save not being Cha is that Cha doesn't get enough benefits, then maybe a fair compromise (House Rule, mind you) would be to have Will Save keyed to Cha, but remove shenanigans like Divine Grace, Dark Blessing, Unholy Toughness, Marshal minor aura, and all other miscellaneous Cha to everything stuff, because then these will shaft the other stats.

[AMFV]

Because CHA is completely useless.

And because the two abilities overlap and yet CHA gets nothing, it is supposed to be the "strength of your personalty" but it is not. WIS is. So, since taking that away from CHA would be kicking the dog, why not take the bit overlapping away from WIS to give it to CHA ?

Social encounters remain nuanced, since your class has a pretty big say in your will save, among others and CHA stops being the absolute dump stat.

Charisma is hardly completely useless. If you check X Stat to Y Bonus, you will find that it is the stat that is the easiest to add to any check. Charisma may be useless if you're playing a Wizard, or a stock Fighter, but it is certainly not useful.

Just because not everybody gets equal use out of something does not make it useless, in fact several builds have been made using Charisma as a primary stat for even melee fighters, since it's easy to substitute in.

Lastly, if you'll check some of the various handbooks, many of them advice dumping Wisdom (for characters with high will saves, since having better social skills trumps a +1 to your save when you already have +9 naturally, and probably more), Intelligence (For characters with a Charisma Dependance, such as Paladins, or who don't need skill points, such as many fighter types that don't intend to use expertise.), Dexterity (If wearing heavy armor, although generally negatives there are bad.), Strength (The mailman guide explicitely recommends having a 3 in this stat, so for casters this is probably the most dumpable state, whereas Charisma is still useful). As you can see there are scenarios where dumping every stat can occur with of course the exception of Con.... Unless you're playing an Undead...

[Cerussite]

The way I see it, it should a bit of both: a character with strong intuition and perception (represented by wis) would be able to see more easily through an illusion, for example, but a character with a strong personality would resist a compulsion more strongly. There are good arguments for both, but these arguments usually fail when considering specific applications of some will saves.

[TuggyNE]

Imagine a used car salesman being threatened by a physically superior opponent. He may have plenty of ability to get charismatic, but panic in such a situation.

To be quite honest, I'd say the main reason for difficulty in this case is the panic, which D&D does not well account for (under the hypothesis that adventurers don't just randomly panic under stress). If he actually applied his Cha score rather than just self-casting confusion/cause fear (:smalltongue:), he'd be able to do considerably better.


Is there anything that provokes a will save that isn't mind-affecting?

Sure, lots. Inflict critical wounds, for one. Plane shift, for another. Banishment. Slow. Bestow curse, chill touch, glitterdust, holy smite, imprisonment, disjunction, magic jar, (lesser/greater) planar binding, telekinesis, speak with dead, soul bind.

That's in Core.

[Alberic Strein]

Charisma may be useless if you're playing a Wizard, or a stock Fighter, but it is certainly not useful.

That. One thousand times that.

More seriously, yes, saying that CHA was useless was me going overboard.

However, isn't CHA so easy to add to any check... Because it relates to extremely few checks ? It doesn't factor in your saves, in your initiative, etc, etc, etc... Unless you're a CHA based caster or a Face, the only one thing CHA ever does for you is UMD (which is mighty useful)

Yes, any stat can be dumped, and once you know the tricks, you can eventually make CHA an important stat for many parts of your character.

But out of the box, CHA is the one and only ability that does NOTHING on your character sheet (for most classes). Compared to other abilities, just how often is CHA dumped ? I might not be very experienced, but I have to say that I believe it is a bit more. And what of medium-low optimization levels when you don't know, or when you can't use every source book, just how useful is CHA compared to the others abilities ? Not for a specific build, but most times ?

Yes, CHA can be (thank god) mighty useful. But isn't it way harder to make it so than the other ability scores? And doesn't it require quite an investment? Couldn't that poor stat get some love? Some love in line with the very fluff of the ability?

[AMFV]

That. One thousand times that.

More seriously, yes, saying that CHA was useless was me going overboard.

However, isn't CHA so easy to add to any check... Because it relates to extremely few checks ? It doesn't factor in your saves, in your initiative, etc, etc, etc... Unless you're a CHA based caster or a Face, the only one thing CHA ever does for you is UMD (which is mighty useful)

Yes, any stat can be dumped, and once you know the tricks, you can eventually make CHA an important stat for many parts of your character.

But out of the box, CHA is the one and only ability that does NOTHING on your character sheet (for most classes). Compared to other abilities, just how often is CHA dumped ? I might not be very experienced, but I have to say that I believe it is a bit more. And what of medium-low optimization levels when you don't know, or when you can't use every source book, just how useful is CHA compared to the others abilities ? Not for a specific build, but most times ?

Yes, CHA can be (thank god) mighty useful. But isn't it way harder to make it so than the other ability scores? And doesn't it require quite an investment? Couldn't that poor stat get some love? Some love in line with the very fluff of the ability?

Wow, that's what I get for not proofreading. Not a high enough Wisdom and ranks in spot apparently.

Well Cha does most of the social skills which are incredibly abusable. Cha is incredibly useful for Clerics and Paladins, and mandatory for Sorcerers and Bards. So that's 4 out of 11 of the core classes that CANNOT in the latter cases and SHOULD NOT in the former dump Charisma, that should be fine for a low OP group. Wisdom gets 5 out of 11 (Druids, Clerics, Monks, Paladins, and Rangers), so 4 out of 11 ain't bad. On the other hand, Int has only two (Rogues and Wizards), possibly three if you make an argument for trip fighters.

So in a low OP party you should see roughly 80% of party members drop int (possibly less if they love them skill points), whereas roughly 60% should drop Charisma. So I don't see what the issue is here, provided there's a good distribution of classes, there should be at least one or two characters that don't dump Charisma.

[Alberic Strein]

Wow, that's what I get for not proofreading. Not a high enough Wisdom and ranks in spot apparently.

Well Cha does most of the social skills which are incredibly abusable. Cha is incredibly useful for Clerics and Paladins, and mandatory for Sorcerers and Bards. So that's 4 out of 11 of the core classes that CANNOT in the latter cases and SHOULD NOT in the former dump Charisma, that should be fine for a low OP group. Wisdom gets 5 out of 11 (Druids, Clerics, Monks, Paladins, and Rangers), so 4 out of 11 ain't bad. On the other hand, Int has only two (Rogues and Wizards), possibly three if you make an argument for trip fighters.

So in a low OP party you should see roughly 80% of party members drop int (possibly less if they love them skill points), whereas roughly 60% should drop Charisma. So I don't see what the issue is here, provided there's a good distribution of classes, there should be at least one or two characters that don't dump Charisma.

It might be my definition of "dump" that is faulty. Can you consider getting a 10 in an ability a dump ? Is getting 1 skill point per level a thing ? Is it possible to gain 0 skill point per level ?

I was under the (possibly wrong impression) that out of the 6 classes that can dump CHA, they could dump it real, real low, while getting 8 or less in INT was rarer.

[AMFV]

It might be my definition of "dump" that is faulty. Can you consider getting a 10 in an ability a dump ? Is getting 1 skill point per level a thing ? Is it possible to gain 0 skill point per level ?

I was under the (possibly wrong impression) that out of the 6 classes that can dump CHA, they could dump it real, real low, while getting 8 or less in INT was rarer.

You always gain at least one skill point per level. So theoretically you could dump int down to the nether regions with few negative consequences. Also certain builds can go without any skills at all.

I personally never dump Int though, as can be shown by having to look up the rule on skill points, but that's only because I consider myself to be smart and don't like to roleplay dumber characters.

But yes Thog (Our Barbarian) with an Int of 4 will still get 1 skill point which he can invest into jump. And our Bard, the dumb but handsome Elan, can dump his int down to 3, being a human bard he will still gain 3 skill points per level, which is enough for several things.

I would consider a ten to be a dump if it's your lowest stat, although I tend to roll unusually high, I've had several characters where my lowest stat was a 12 in recent memory. But really no stat is less dumpable than any other, I recently have rolled up a character with an 8 in Con, on account of the whole undead thing.

Out of my last 5 characters I have only dumped Charisma on one of them, if that's any indication of it's likeliness to be dumped.

[Blueiji]

To be honest, Wis and Cha have a lot of messy conflation.

To my perspective, Cha was the ability to project your will onto other people, through the Social Skills (Or existences, a la Sorcerer and Bard spells.), whereas wisdom represents not only your perception of external stimuli, but also your ability to self-perceive, and also the internal, rather than external, force of personality. In a way, I think of Cha as being the Mind's Strength, and Wis as the Mind's Con.

It is, of course, subjective, however.

This is exactly how I think of it. With the inclusion of INT and DEX as "finesse" ability scores of the mental and physical realms, respectively.

[ben-zayb]

The way I see it, it should a bit of both: a character with strong intuition and perception (represented by wis) would be able to see more easily through an illusion, for example, but a character with a strong personality would resist a compulsion more strongly. There are good arguments for both, but these arguments usually fail when considering specific applications of some will saves.
I think whe designer's concept of strong personality (high Cha) in this case only indicates he has more "Social Presence", in that he has ways to be a little more compelling and convincing towards people. Basically, he's a smooth guy.

Some of these guys still can crack under pressure when things don't go their way, like when someone more influential is stealing his thunder or worse, even affecting him. We see this all the time in pop culture and even in real life. This is where Composure (the social half of Willpower) comes in. People with high composure can keep their emotions in check despite the situation. These people rarely panic, and these people rarely succumb to peer pressure.

The purely mental half of Willpower is resolve, or one's level of determination in meeting his aims/goals. Again, my interpretation is largely based off NWoD's attribute system, only because they managed IMO to represent Willpower as both an emotional and mental concept.

[Cambrian]

Really some fault for dumping being prevalent falls on the DM allowing it. I'm not suggesting that a should not allow a character to be made with a dump stat; I'm suggesting DMs should punish characters for having abysmally low stats.

A low intelligence fighter shouldn't be allowed to come up with brilliant plans and in just the same way a low Charisma character shouldn't find their social interactions unaffected. The key here is this should apply for whether dice are rolled or not.


More on topic: if WILL saves were based off of Cha then Will would be even more limited than Cha is now. What would a fighter gain out of Wis other than a Perception check bonus? Sense Motive is nice, but so is Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate, and especially UMD.

[Raimun]

I don't see why characters with high Wisdom should be weak willed.

I have not read or seen any fiction where the foolish people (low Wis) have strong willpower. They all crack down under the pressure or find it hard to go on. Do note that even very intelligent people can be fools and the reverse is also true.

The fact of the matter is that just as Str doesn't determine your Fort save, Charisma doesn't determine your Will save. Those are the functions of Con and Wis. Just like with physical stats, mental fortitude is different from mental strength.

Let's observe the stats that don't grant any bonuses to saves: Str, Int and Cha. None of them have reactionary functions. If you are using these stats, you are trying to make something happen, not trying to prevent something from happening.

When you have to make a save, you are being reactionary. Your body is trying to shake off the punishment. Your reflexes are trying get you away from the harm's way. Your will is trying regain control of yourself.

Just as you can't rip off the poison in your veins with your raw strength, you can't sweet talk, intimidate or bluff yourself out of mind control.

'Yourself' is the key here. You are trying to regain control of yourself, not of someone else. Hence, Wisdom, not Charisma for Will saves.

Now, I can agree with the 4e edition Fort-Ref-Will-system but only because of game balance view, not that I find it makes always sense, basically your character can choose which one to use:

Str or Con to Fort
Dex or Int to Ref
Wis or Cha to Will

[Theafroscotsman]

Ive always thought that wisdom was a measure of how mentally stable you are, or how well you understand things, or how deep your insight is into things. It makes sense to me that having a lot of wisdom means that you are able to understand or "realize and detect" the world around you, making it difficult for harmful or disruptive mind altering and illusion spells to have an effect on you.
Charisma only really applies for social situations, for example, convincing someone something, or trying to draw information from places.

Just my opinion.

[Stux]

Because CHA is completely useless.

And because the two abilities overlap and yet CHA gets nothing, it is supposed to be the "strength of your personalty" but it is not. WIS is. So, since taking that away from CHA would be kicking the dog, why not take the bit overlapping away from WIS to give it to CHA ?

Social encounters remain nuanced, since your class has a pretty big say in your will save, among others and CHA stops being the absolute dump stat.

Now this is a reasonable argument. Not one I totally agree with, but I understand the position.

Perhaps the issue is the name 'Will Save'? Things you make a will save against generally aren't things to do with willpower in the traditional sense. Rather they are usually about perceiving what is real. Which very much makes sense to be connected to wisdom in my mind.

As for charisma being underpowered: well it does add to diplomacy. Which is a pretty crazy good skill without some DM fiat.

[Czin]

Wisdom and Charisma unfortunately are stats that represent too many things at once to get that nice rounded six stats.

That being said, a High Charisma but low Wisdom person would be like that girl in school who tends to get what she wants and the school orbits around her, but is herself, quite easily influenced.

Disregarding the muddled questions of physical appearance and perception.