Would an illegal immigrant, be an outsider?

[CyberThread]

So lets say,I smuggled my wife and myself into Mechanus (breaking planar immigration laws), and then while their we had "fun".


Now this resulting "fun " (See:BOEF) makes her take, and she has a baby in her womb, and the baby goes the 9 months, and out pops a half elf. Now as this baby was conceived and given birth on mechanus, would it have outsider status?

[BRC]

So lets say,I smuggled my wife and myself into Mechanus (breaking planar immigration laws), and then while their we had "fun".


Now this resulting "fun " (See:BOEF) makes her take, and she has a baby in her womb, and the baby goes the 9 months, and out pops a half elf. Now as this baby was conceived and given birth on mechanus, would it have outsider status?

Not unless your baby was mutated by magic radiation or something.

[Nettlekid]

Outsiders are biologically Outsiders, like they all have common traits about them that make them described as such. I think it's fluffed as being made of the planar material that they come from. So no, the baby is still of the Material Plane and all the traits that are due such a creature. It, and you, and your wife, WOULD all have the Extraplanar subtype, which means that you're not on your native plane, and so spells like Banishment or Gate can affect you.

...Actually, would the baby's native plane be Mechanus, and so on the Material Plane it has the Extraplanar subtype?

[TuggyNE]

Outsiders are biologically Outsiders, like they all have common traits about them that make them described as such. I think it's fluffed as being made of the planar material that they come from.

Yeah, Outsiders are more fundamentally different from Humanoids than Elves are from Dwarves. You can't just give birth in another area and get an Outsider out of the deal.


...Actually, would the baby's native plane be Mechanus, and so on the Material Plane it has the Extraplanar subtype?

Probably.

[137beth]

Yea, it would be Extraplanar on the material plane, but it wouldn't be an outsider (unless the parents were outsiders, presumably...)

[Kuulvheysoon]

...Actually, would the baby's native plane be Mechanus, and so on the Material Plane it has the Extraplanar subtype?

That's.... actually along the same lines that I was thinking - that they resulting baby would be a Humanoid [human, extraplanar] on the Prime.

[Nettlekid]

That's.... actually along the same lines that I was thinking - that they resulting baby would be a Humanoid [human, extraplanar] on the Prime.

I bet you there's some way to abuse that in a build. I don't know how, but because it's there, there must be something you can do. I've often thought that the best way to take out an Astral Projection Wizard would be to summon his real body using Gate, which can target any Extraplanar, assuming he stashed his body in some pocket plane. But can Extraplanar be an advantage?

[FearlessGnome]

Hm... Pick a plane where only weak/non-PC races live, and then have extremely juiced up and indiscriminate Banishment spells as part of your defences? I mean it's not the most exciting thing, but...

Also, Craft Contingency (Something really bad happens) Banishment on self?

[Emperor Tippy]

I bet you there's some way to abuse that in a build. I don't know how, but because it's there, there must be something you can do. I've often thought that the best way to take out an Astral Projection Wizard would be to summon his real body using Gate, which can target any Extraplanar, assuming he stashed his body in some pocket plane. But can Extraplanar be an advantage?

There is. You use Teleport Through Time to go back to before you were born. You Mindrape your parents a day or so after your birth to get complete copies of their memories. You Teleport Through Time back 9 months and use Genesis to create a super happy fun time plane. You kidnap your parents and bring them to super happy fun time plane to ensure that you are conceived and born there. Then you bring your family back to the Prime and again use Mind Rape to put the origional memories in their heads.

Now you are native to super happy fun time plane and can thus bring Super Happy Fun Time plane with you everywhere via Planar Bubble.

[FearlessGnome]

That wouldn't work, though. There are far too many sperm involved for you to be able to be sure that the right one enters the egg after you make them conceive under different circumstances. The new kid might have the desired trait, but the original you does not get to retroactively change their [Extraplanar] tag.

[Raven777]

That wouldn't work, though. There are far too many sperm involved for you to be able to be sure that the right one enters the egg after you make them conceive under different circumstances. The new kid might have the desired trait, but the original you does not get to retroactively change their [Extraplanar] tag.

Make that part of the backstory then. His character is actually the New Him.

[Sith_Happens]

There is. You use Teleport Through Time to go back to before you were born. You Mindrape your parents a day or so after your birth to get complete copies of their memories. You Teleport Through Time back 9 months and use Genesis to create a super happy fun time plane. You kidnap your parents and bring them to super happy fun time plane to ensure that you are conceived and born there. Then you bring your family back to the Prime and again use Mind Rape to put the origional memories in their heads.

Now you are native to super happy fun time plane and can thus bring Super Happy Fun Time plane with you everywhere via Planar Bubble.

That seems practically guaranteed to end up with You being retroactively replaced by Other Potential Child of Your Parents.

[Phelix-Mu]

Or be even more trouble for the DM:

Go back to your own, newly [extraplanar] youth, and true mind switch yourself into that body. Now you grew up always being you, complete with [extraplanar] and all the mindscrew that a DM can ask for from just a handful of spells.

EDIT: I can see the backstory now....

"I was always me; even before I was me, I had come back to make them make me become me. The circle is unbroken."

*mind explodes*

DOUBLE EDIT: I think the DM now is required by all that is holy the game to make a BBEG whose goal is to go back and interrupt the cycle before John Connor the character in question gets this whole self-fulfilling prophecy concept off the ground.

[Arcanist]

That wouldn't work, though. There are far too many sperm involved for you to be able to be sure that the right one enters the egg after you make them conceive under different circumstances. The new kid might have the desired trait, but the original you does not get to retroactively change their [Extraplanar] tag.

Because of the wording of TTT, it would work because you will invariably be born. Your appearance might change, but you will ultimately be born with the exact same ability scores, class levels, skills, spells known, whatever. TTT allows this to prevent paradoxes from occurring.

[AMFV]

That's.... actually along the same lines that I was thinking - that they resulting baby would be a Humanoid [human, extraplanar] on the Prime.

Perhaps the Dingo banished your baby...

[KillianHawkeye]

That seems practically guaranteed to end up with You being retroactively replaced by Other Potential Child of Your Parents.

Plot Twist: It's exactly the same, except for being the opposite gender. :smalleek:

[Xuldarinar]

A human is born.

What all can change this human strictly based upon the location of their conception, development, and/or birth?





Also:

Lets say for sake of argument an individual's race is native to the Material plane.
They were conceived on (Plane A).
Their parents spend the vast majority of the following months until just before birth on (Plane B).
They are finally born on (Plane C).
They are raised on (Plane D).

What planes are they not (Extraplanar) on?

[Mnemnosyne]

In 2nd Edition Planescape, there was an inherent distinction between Primes and Planars based on what plane they were born on; a human born on the Prime was inherently different than a human born on any other plane, and each had a few advantages and disadvantages based on that. It should be noted that it didn't matter which other plane; there were really only two possible conditions: born on the Prime, or born anywhere else.

To my knowledge, no such distinction has ever entered the rules in 3.5; all humans, even if born on another plane, are, at least by RAW, considered native to the Prime Material. The RAW on the extraplanar subtype says "Creatures not labeled as extraplanar are natives of the Material Plane, and they gain the extraplanar subtype if they leave the Material Plane." and there is no mention of where the creature was born affecting it.

[nedz]

Plot Twist: It's exactly the same, except for being the opposite gender. :smalleek:

Yes, and the next time around the loop it gets changed again, and the next time around the loop ... . Welcome to Schroedinger Gender.

[hamishspence]

To my knowledge, no such distinction has ever entered the rules in 3.5; all humans, even if born on another plane, are, at least by RAW, considered native to the Prime Material. The RAW on the extraplanar subtype says "Creatures not labeled as extraplanar are natives of the Material Plane, and they gain the extraplanar subtype if they leave the Material Plane." and there is no mention of where the creature was born affecting it.

Isn't that what templates like Fiendish Creature, Celestial Creature, and so on, are for- to represent populations that have lived on the outer planes so long, that the Planes in question have changed them?

[Xuldarinar]

Isn't that what templates like Fiendish Creature, Celestial Creature, and so on, are for- to represent populations that have lived on the outer planes so long, that the Planes in question have changed them?

Well, the question is how long does that take?


1 generation? 2? 5? 10? 20?


On the plane of shadow, how many generations does it take before dark humans start being born, or shadow humans?

On an evil (or good) aligned plane, how many generations does it take before fiendish (or celestial) humans start being born?

[Fable Wright]

Well, the question is how long does that take?


1 generation? 2? 5? 10? 20?


On the plane of shadow, how many generations does it take before dark humans start being born, or shadow humans?

On an evil (or good) aligned plane, how many generations does it take before fiendish (or celestial) humans start being born?

According to afroakuma, resident planar expert of the forums:



Question: How many generations has a group of animals or people to live in another Plane before they get the Celestial/Fiendish/Axiomatic/Chaotic/Air/Fire/Water/Earth/Whatever template?
If they're not breeding with elemental creatures? It takes outside influence to make that happen. Now, the Extraplanar subtype hits the first new generation.

[Psyren]

...Actually, would the baby's native plane be Mechanus, and so on the Material Plane it has the Extraplanar subtype?

I would say no - Mechanus is not the native plane for any humanoids, thus they would be extraplanar even if conceived there. It would be just like a Devil being born on Earth - it would always truly belong to Hell.

[killem2]

That seems practically guaranteed to end up with You being retroactively replaced by Other Potential Child of Your Parents.

You are't thinking 4th dimensionally Marty.

[Nettlekid]

I would say no - Mechanus is not the native plane for any humanoids, thus they would be extraplanar even if conceived there. It would be just like a Devil being born on Earth - it would always truly belong to Hell.

I don't think a Devil CAN be born on the Material Plane, since they seem to be produced from the planar matter of their home plane. The distinction you're making seems more like a matter of a Native Outsider versus a regular Outsider, like an Aasimar born on the Material Plane.

I guess it boils down to: What defines a plane as a creature's home plane? Where it's born? Where its species originated?

[mindwarper10]

I always took it as where the species originated...but this topic is really getting me thinking...

[shadow_archmagi]

I'd have a field day with this as a GM. I'd definitely allow the child to be planetouched, and have bizarre traits. She would always feel the call of the wild to order.

[Xuldarinar]

I don't think a Devil CAN be born on the Material Plane, since they seem to be produced from the planar matter of their home plane. The distinction you're making seems more like a matter of a Native Outsider versus a regular Outsider, like an Aasimar born on the Material Plane.

I guess it boils down to: What defines a plane as a creature's home plane? Where it's born? Where its species originated?

They might be able to be born on the Material plane, although… I have to bring up Kythons. Though they are occasionally referred to earth-bound demons, they are not specific as to the type(s) of fiends that resulted in them, only that they tried to reproduce by magical means, and the result was a vile race of aberrations.

Outsider (native), that does bring up some things..

Two fiends or celestials settle on the material plane. They have a child who is raised on that plane. Is the child Outsider (native) while on the material plane (in addition to their other subtypes)?

We can argue most plane touched are born onto the material plane, same with half-fiends, half-celestials, act, and that is why they have the (native) subtype as outsiders.

[TuggyNE]

Two fiends or celestials settle on the material plane. They have a child who is raised on that plane. Is the child Outsider (native) while on the material plane (in addition to their other subtypes)?

Nope. [Native] is something else again; it means, not that the creature's home plane is X, but that an Outsider (specifically) has an altered biology more characteristic of Material Plane residents. [Native] only applies to Outsiders, but it and [extraplanar] (or the absence of [extraplanar]) are two quite different things. You can have a creature, even an Outsider, that's native to the Material without being [native].

[Nettlekid]

Nope. [Native] is something else again; it means, not that the creature's home plane is X, but that an Outsider (specifically) has an altered biology more characteristic of Material Plane residents. [Native] only applies to Outsiders, but it and [extraplanar] (or the absence of [extraplanar]) are two quite different things. You can have a creature, even an Outsider, that's native to the Material without being [native].

Is an Aasimar, an Outsider [Native], born on the Material Plane, Extraplanar?

[Phelix-Mu]

The whole problem (or awesome plot hook) that I see with [extraplanar] being assigned with place of birth is as follows.

1.) Fiend kidnaps woman.

2.) Fiend kidnaps man.

3.) Woman is made pregnant (or the fiend can skip directly to this step by kidnapping pregnant woman).

4.) Fiend brings pregnant woman to some dark plane of evil (take your pick), where she gives birth.

5.) Kidnapped people returned home, possibly without knowledge of what has transpired (sounds like a case of mindrape).

6.) Fiend arrives some years later, and threatens to banish the child unless the woman guesses that its name is Rumpelstiltskin sells her soul to the fiend.

Hmm. Well, I'm not sure it's a problem, but this seems infinitely exploitable from an outsider's perspective.

[TuggyNE]

Is an Aasimar, an Outsider [Native], born on the Material Plane, Extraplanar?

Whenever it's not on the Material Plane, yes. Why?

[Nettlekid]

Whenever it's not on the Material Plane, yes. Why?

No, on the Material Plane. Because it's an Outsider. So it...is from another plane even though it was born here? Like a human would be "from" the Material Plane even though they were born on Mechanus?

[Xuldarinar]

No, on the Material Plane. Because it's an Outsider. So it...is from another plane even though it was born here? Like a human would be "from" the Material Plane even though they were born on Mechanus?

The outsider type is more of what they are made of/what they represent, and not where they are from. (Extraplanar) says they weren't born on the plane they are currently on.

Now, if a tiefling is born on a plane other than the material, they just have the native subtype on that plane. If they come to the material plane, they are Medium Outsider (extraplanar, native).

[TuggyNE]

No, on the Material Plane. Because it's an Outsider. So it...is from another plane even though it was born here? Like a human would be "from" the Material Plane even though they were born on Mechanus?

Outsider is not where you're from, any more than Humanoid, Giant, or even Aberration.

Outsider is what you are.

[Nettlekid]

Outsider is not where you're from, any more than Humanoid, Giant, or even Aberration.

Outsider is what you are.

That I know. What I mean is that, what makes an Outsider Native? Is it if it's born on the Material Plane? Because Aasimars and the like can still be Banished, can't they?

[Xuldarinar]

That I know. What I mean is that, what makes an Outsider Native? Is it if it's born on the Material Plane? Because Aasimars and the like can still be Banished, can't they?

Well, lets look at what some creatures that are Outsider (native):


Planetouched, Half-Celestials, Half-Farspawn, Half-Fiends, Unholy Scion..


They are all at least half of a species native to the material plane and are typically born there. Now, I know of no example of any such creature being born on another plane, so I do not know if the native trait would be absent. I will note that cambion [children of tanar'ri fathers and planetouched mothers, or half-fiend mothers] are Outsider (chaotic, evil, extraplanar), and under cambion it says:


Environment: Cambions inhabit the Infinite Layers of the Abyss, though some also walk the areas of the Material Plane where they were born.

[TuggyNE]

That I know. What I mean is that, what makes an Outsider Native?

It's the way they're bred. What makes a half-elf a half-elf?


Because Aasimars and the like can still be Banished, can't they?

Only if they're extraplanar at the moment. Banishment doesn't care whether you're an Outsider, [native], or anything else: it looks for exactly one thing, and that thing is the [extraplanar] tag.

Again: [native] and [extraplanar] are two entirely different things; the presence or absence of one has no bearing on the presence or absence of the other.

[hamishspence]

The outsider type is more of what they are made of/what they represent, and not where they are from. (Extraplanar) says they weren't born on the plane they are currently on.

Now, if a tiefling is born on a plane other than the material, they just have the native subtype on that plane. If they come to the material plane, they are Medium Outsider (extraplanar, native).

That would make sense- given that Waterdeep: City of Splendours has an aasimar hero that's native to a city on Selune's Outer Plane - and he has the extraplanar subtype when encountered on the Material Plane.

It doesn't mention his Native subtype- but it makes sense for him to retain it.

[Czin]

I don't think a Devil CAN be born on the Material Plane, since they seem to be produced from the planar matter of their home plane. The distinction you're making seems more like a matter of a Native Outsider versus a regular Outsider, like an Aasimar born on the Material Plane.

I guess it boils down to: What defines a plane as a creature's home plane? Where it's born? Where its species originated?

Some devils are capable of sexual reproduction with their own kind, primarily Erinyes/Pleasure devils and Unique devils.

[Phelix-Mu]

The whole matter is highly complicated by the fact that outsiders have this whole highly-magical biology going on. They can really reproduce with just about anything, anytime they want, producing offspring if they want, possibly not passing on their heritage if they so desire, changing shapes just to make the specifics of giving birth terribly complicated, and otherwise befuddling players and DMs alike with silly [tags].

Given their lifespan and really unearthly abilities, I really wouldn't put too much beyond them. If they want to have babies over yonder, fine, good. Assume they manage it somehow.

[native] was just kind of a silly idea, IMHO. The results of trying to make outsiders into non-outsiders are like the results of adding [living] to constructs, but without all the goodness of warforged.

Which Outsiders[native] aren't going to be affected by a general move to lesser planetouched and that whole optional rule?

[Czin]

The whole matter is highly complicated by the fact that outsiders have this whole highly-magical biology going on. They can really reproduce with just about anything, anytime they want, producing offspring if they want, possibly not passing on their heritage if they so desire, changing shapes just to make the specifics of giving birth terribly complicated, and otherwise befuddling players and DMs alike with silly [tags].

Given their lifespan and really unearthly abilities, I really wouldn't put too much beyond them. If they want to have babies over yonder, fine, good. Assume they manage it somehow.

[native] was just kind of a silly idea, IMHO. The results of trying to make outsiders into non-outsiders are like the results of adding [living] to constructs, but without all the goodness of warforged.

Which Outsiders[native] aren't going to be affected by a general move to lesser planetouched and that whole optional rule?
Going by the Fiendish Codexes, while the power to impregnate is near universal among fiends at least, the power to be impregnated is actually something of a rarity.

[Bogardan_Mage]

I would say no - Mechanus is not the native plane for any humanoids, thus they would be extraplanar even if conceived there. It would be just like a Devil being born on Earth - it would always truly belong to Hell.
By that logic you could pop into a Githzerai monastery and Banish everyone inside; they aren't technically from Limbo even if they've all lived their entire lives there.