How do I nerf... Myself?

[Atsull]

I'm currently playing a campaign with a few of my friends. we've just finished our 3rd adventure, and I feel rather guilty. I'm a Cleric, playing a homebrew race called a Tauren (Brutally ripped off from WoW).

But here's the real problem: I have a strength and constitution modifier of +5.

I have more HP than out group's fighter, and I'm using a Greataxe, a weapon which easily trumps the other players weapons, a Greatsword and a quarterstaff (For the sorcerer). My damage even trumps the sorceror's spells. Because of this, I feel like I'm stealing all the experience (Our DM awards XP based on damage dealt to a now-dead enemy). I've tried hanging back and using nothing but my horrible 2nd level cleric spells, but the sorceror almost died and the fighter wasn't much better. How do I give my fellow players a chance to actually fight without watching them die?

[Juntao112]

Have the sorcerer cast buffing spells on the fighter.

[Atsull]

Have the sorcerer cast buffing spells on the fighter.

Should I hang back and guard the sorceror?

[Alberic Strein]

...Buff spells ?

...Maneuvers ?

Spend a few turns buffing the fighter to hell and back, and have him wreak avoc while you trip/sunder/disarm enemies ?

You will still get attention, so damage will still be directed at you (good!) you will deal less damage(good!) and the fighter will look awesome for at least a couple more levels (heh, you're doing what you can!)

[Atsull]

...Buff spells ?

...Maneuvers ?

Spend a few turns buffing the fighter to hell and back, and have him wreak avoc while you trip/sunder/disarm enemies ?

You will still get attention, so damage will still be directed at you (good!) you will deal less damage(good!) and the fighter will look awesome for at least a couple more levels (heh, you're doing what you can!)

Great. I've also tried Grappling enemies and throwing them at the fighter who stabs them while they're on the ground.

[eggynack]

I'm currently playing a campaign with a few of my friends. we've just finished our 3rd adventure, and I feel rather guilty. I'm a Cleric, playing a homebrew race called a Tauren (Brutally ripped off from WoW).

But here's the real problem: I have a strength and constitution modifier of +5.

I have more HP than out group's fighter, and I'm using a Greataxe, a weapon which easily trumps the other players weapons, a Greatsword and a quarterstaff (For the sorcerer). My damage even trumps the sorceror's spells. Because of this, I feel like I'm stealing all the experience (Our DM awards XP based on damage dealt to a now-dead enemy). I've tried hanging back and using nothing but my horrible 2nd level cleric spells, but the sorceror almost died and the fighter wasn't much better. How do I give my fellow players a chance to actually fight without watching them die?
A greataxe isn't better than a greatsword. Just saying. More importantly, you should try to get your DM to get rid of that weird XP rule. It just causes a bunch of problems, like not rewarding all manners of dealing with encounters equally, and enforcing competition within the party. He's incentivizing you doing your best to deal all the damage yourself, because anything else would be against your best interests. The same goes for the sorcerer, who would normally be at his best tossing out battlefield control spells, but is stuck trying to beat things up with a stick for some reason. It really seems to be the source of a lot of these problems.

[Alberic Strein]

Nice!

Could be better though : Grapple a foe, then bull rush the fighter as he bull rushes you.

For bonus points, have the warning cry for said maneuver be :

"What screams then goes squick? YOU!"

[limejuicepowder]

Like others said, focusing on a more supportive role is a good place to start, though I feel your pain on the cleric spell list (I really don't like clerics).

I'd also talk to the DM about his awful damage dealt = xp system. This discourages the finer points of combat (party unity and tactics) in favor of a free-for-all, rocket tag combat. It also means the more powerful characters gain levels faster, making the gap even bigger. Terrible terrible idea.

[Psyren]

(Our DM awards XP based on damage dealt to a now-dead enemy).

Your DM should know that this is a terrible idea; damage is perhaps the least useful thing to do in a fight. With a system like this, nobody will want to control, buff, debuff, heal or even summon anything. It encourages everyone to just run in and DPS with no thought for working together, tactics, or variation.

[Atsull]

A greataxe isn't better than a greatsword. Just saying. More importantly, you should try to get your DM to get rid of that weird XP rule. It just causes a bunch of problems, like not rewarding all manners of dealing with encounters equally, and enforcing competition within the party. He's incentivizing you doing your best to deal all the damage yourself, because anything else would be against your best interests. The same goes for the sorcerer, who would normally be at his best tossing out battlefield control spells, but is stuck trying to beat things up with a stick for some reason. It really seems to be the source of a lot of these problems.

The sorcerer gains Xp for his spells. I'm mostly worried about the fighter.

[eggynack]

The sorcerer gains Xp for his spells. I'm mostly worried about the fighter.
What does it mean for the sorcerer to gain XP from his spells? How much XP does he get for casting a grease, both if the enemy falls, and if he doesn't fall? Do you folks just kinda make an estimate of what the theoretical damage dealing of a grease is? What happens if you cast a buff spell on the fighter? How does this stuff get counted? These issues aren't even the whole point. As limejuicepowder noted, it's a system that makes powerful characters more powerful, and weaker characters even weaker. You get a whole positive feedback loop dealy. To some extent, you and the sorcerer should probably be doing things that make the fighter better at his job, like casting BFC's, and buffing him to high heaven. Your DM has constructed a situation where that route is actively discouraged, which magnifies the problems inherent in the system. You should try to make this not be so.

[The Insanity]

I'm a Cleric, playing a homebrew race called a Tauren
This here might be the source of your problems.


What does it mean for the sorcerer to gain XP from his spells?
I think he means that the Sorc is a blaster.

[eggynack]

I think he means that the Sorc is a blaster.
Sure, that's what it might mean, but it's just indicative of deeper issues. For example, if the sorcerer and fighter are feeling overshadowed, then the sorcerer should eventually cast something like haste on the fighter. That would be one theoretical solution to this problem, and it'd work out reasonably well. However, the sorcerer will never do that, because he doesn't gain XP from doing so. Many of the solutions to this problem are inaccessible because of XP being tied to damage.

[Alberic Strein]

The sorcerer gains Xp for his spells. I'm mostly worried about the fighter.

Step 1 : Make his life easier (flanking, maneuvers, catching aggro, battlefield control)
Step 2 : Make his life awesome (buffs/debuffs)
Step 3 : Make his life prolonged (healing [healing is not the best course of action in a fight, but hey, you want to nerf yourserlf])
Step 4 : Call him your best bud
Step 5 : Pay him a drink
Step 6 : Make him feel special
Step 7 : Give him lease to ask you through code words to cast specific spells on him

Long story short :
Step 1 See posts, will try to find some specifics
Step 2 Be a bro / his wingman from time to time

[TaiLiu]

This here might be the source of your problems.
Indeed. The races are poorly balanced already; a homebrew race may be even worse.

[The Insanity]

Sure, that's what it might mean, but it's just indicative of deeper issues. For example, if the sorcerer and fighter are feeling overshadowed, then the sorcerer should eventually cast something like haste on the fighter. That would be one theoretical solution to this problem, and it'd work out reasonably well. However, the sorcerer will never do that, because he doesn't gain XP from doing so. Many of the solutions to this problem are inaccessible because of XP being tied to damage.
Hey, I didn't say there's no issue. I just pointed out what might have been meant.

[eggynack]

Hey, I didn't say there's no issue. I just pointed out what might have been meant.
Fair enough. I've gotta wonder if that's actually what's happening, though it's a path that makes some sense given our knowledge.

[The Insanity]

He did say that his damage trumps the Sorcerer's spells, so it's save to assume that the Sorcerer's spells are (mostly) blasting spells.

[Benthesquid]

Step One: Suggest to your DM that they use an XP system which better reflects the fact that different party members fill different roles in combat, not all of which are direct damage.

Step Two: Repeat Step One as necessary.

Step Three: Maybe play a martial character yourself.

[3Power]

(Our DM awards XP based on damage dealt to a now-dead enemy). This is your actual problem. The tauren may not be an issue depending on its level adjustment and what level the party is at.

[elonin]

That system of individual xp flies straight in the face of what the game is about. In other games you would get individual awards but everyone had different things their class could get points for. for example the thief would get points for doing thief skill checks and damage. wizards would get points for doing wizard things (not just in combat). Heck the guy leaping over a crevase got xp for the difficulty of the attempted check.

[Asteron]

I'm currently playing a campaign with a few of my friends. we've just finished our 3rd adventure, and I feel rather guilty. I'm a Cleric, playing a homebrew race called a Tauren (Brutally ripped off from WoW).

But here's the real problem: I have a strength and constitution modifier of +5.

I have more HP than out group's fighter, and I'm using a Greataxe, a weapon which easily trumps the other players weapons, a Greatsword and a quarterstaff (For the sorcerer). My damage even trumps the sorceror's spells. Because of this, I feel like I'm stealing all the experience (Our DM awards XP based on damage dealt to a now-dead enemy). I've tried hanging back and using nothing but my horrible 2nd level cleric spells, but the sorceror almost died and the fighter wasn't much better. How do I give my fellow players a chance to actually fight without watching them die?

1) I'm baffled at how you are so much better than the fighter. Based on your comment about having 2nd level spells, I put you at level 3-4. You are a point of BAB behind him. He should have at least an 18 in strength. That makes your attack bonus the same (barring buff spells on yourself). You should have a +7 to damage compared to his +6. That difference should be mitigated some by the difference in damage dice (average damage on 1d12 is 6.5 while 2d6 is 7.) Unless he his just making bad decisions, he should be nearly as good at combat as you, not completely overshadowed. **Note that these are assumptions based on the info provided. There could be other info not included that makes this point inaccurate.**

2) As far as races go, it seems like you pretty much have a Minotaur. I don't know what sort of stat bumps this homebrew gives, but this race should probably be at least +1. See if your DM will allow the fighter to rebuild using a Goliath from Races of Stone without the level adjustment to try to match you. It gives +4 to strength and +2 to CON and powerful build. That should help him keep up.

3) In addition to inquiring about the fighter rebuilding using the Goliath, see if the DM will allow him to be a Warblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2). He may balk at allowing the Tome of Battle, of you may not have access to it so it may not available. It's a great book, however, so it is definitely worth the buy (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0786939222/ref=tmm_hrd_used_olp_sr?ie=UTF8&condition=used&sr=&qid=). WotC may have even released it in pdf form to buy, but I'm not sure about that. Don't believe the arguments that it is broken. It is different, not broken.

4) As others have said, talk to your DM about getting rid of that awful XP rule.

[Coidzor]

A greataxe isn't better than a greatsword. Just saying.

More importantly, you should try to get your DM to get rid of that weird XP rule. It just causes a bunch of problems, like not rewarding all manners of dealing with encounters equally, and enforcing competition within the party. He's incentivizing you doing your best to deal all the damage yourself, because anything else would be against your best interests. The same goes for the sorcerer, who would normally be at his best tossing out battlefield control spells, but is stuck trying to beat things up with a stick for some reason. It really seems to be the source of a lot of these problems.

Second (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OemNp6hgX4).

Sorry, I hit the buzzer so many times to second this that it broke.


For bonus points, have the warning cry for said maneuver be :

"What screams then goes squick? YOU!"

Squick (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Squick)? :smalleek:

[Scumbaggery]

Your DM should know that this is a terrible idea; damage is perhaps the least useful thing to do in a fight. With a system like this, nobody will want to control, buff, debuff, heal or even summon anything. It encourages everyone to just run in and DPS with no thought for working together, tactics, or variation.

I agree with this statement. There have been plenty of times where we have won fights because of sheer control vs. damage

[animewatcha]

Is the xp awarded based on how many hitpoints of damage are done to an enemy total? Percentage in accordance to who did what ( you get half the xp for dealing 50% of creatures hitpoints in damage )?

[NichG]

It sounds like you may just be making more mechanically-sound choices than the player of the Fighter, both in character building and in actual play (given that when you held back, they started to get slaughtered by the encounters).

The real problem is that at this point the DM may be expecting a certain level of power from you and will be aiming encounters to challenge the party with you having that level of power. So if you hold back, people start having trouble, which just further underscores the disparity if the other two notice you holding back.

Instead, see if you can make the others stronger.

[Coidzor]

Indeed. The races are poorly balanced already; a homebrew race may be even worse.

It definitely can play a role, but playing a cleric well is going to overshadow a Fighter anyway, CoDzilla isn't just idle chatter. It's most likely a combination of factors, heavily influenced by the DM's houserule on XP awards if it is as bad as we're understanding it to be based upon what has been said of it so far.


OP: The Tier System (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=658.0) may help you all understand some of what you're running into, though without knowing more information about your character, the other players' characters, and what you all actually do before and during combat, it's hard to say how much is what *you're* doing so much as what they're *not* doing.

[Alberic Strein]

Squick (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Squick)? :smalleek:

"Imagine if you please, a sandwich. With two burly, manly, sweaty slices of bread vigorously embracing each other... You're the bacon."

Believe me, the enemy will go squick faster than a request on /b/.

[ericgrau]

I don't like holding back. Part of the fun of the game is the challenge. Normally I'd say only select options which are in line with the amount of power that your group uses and optimize within those bounds, but you're using homebrew. So instead I'll say that your race doesn't have enough LA for your particular gaming group. Talk to the DM honestly and say you think it needs 1 or 2 more LA. Probably 2 more LA unless this is a minor problem. There, simple, and you can move on.

And differing experience points encourages problems like this. Ask for evenly shared experience as long as each person was in the fight and did anything (whether hurting a monster or helping an ally). The sorcerer in particular can use battlefield control, mass debuff, status effect buff and other supportive spells which are better than single target damage spells. Area damage is likewise good crowd control. Like WoW cc, go for disables and mass spells not pure dps.

[Feint's End]

A greataxe isn't better than a greatsword.

Not quite true ... we prooved in another thread that the dps of the greataxe is higher assuming some .... lets call them unlikely circumstances :smallbiggrin:.

As for op:
Aside from the terrible, terrible, terrible (but srsly .... terrible) exp system you are using there is another problem. You picked similar roles. While the sorceror might not outdamage you (tbh casters will never reach the dmg of melees ... at least not single target) he can still laugh when 20 goblins turn to ashes if he hits them with a fireball.

The problem is ... if you play a buff focused cleric with nice physical stats, buff yourself and wade into battle ... well lets just say the fighter will never catch up to your damage. Even worse .... the difference will get bigger and bigger.

In other words ... he build his char to deal damage single target and melee .... you build your char to deal damage single target and melee BUT you can buff, cc, heal and generally solve every problem ever encountered.

My suggestion?
First drop the exp system ... as mentioned it is a terrible way of playing the game and supporting different character roles (besides ... what if you are an ubercharger and deal a few hundred damage? instalevelup?).

Second ... one of you guys should change roles. Your current setup won't work for long even if you stay that way. One way is for you to focusing on buffing and debuffing more than on damage and for the fighter to change into a warblade. Heck ... you could even stay the way you are, but just don't try to maximize for melee dps instead see it as something you do when you don't buff, debuff and heal. Eventually the warblade will catch up and overshadow you in damage. And everybody is happy then ... the sorceror can blast, you can buff, heal AND smack faces and the warblade can smack faces the best.

[eggynack]

Not quite true ... we prooved in another thread that the dps of the greataxe is higher assuming some .... lets call them unlikely circumstances :smallbiggrin:.

Yeah, that was fun stuff. I always like it when problems can be solved with pure logic and math. Still, I'm saying that greatswords are better than greataxes, rather than better in all circumstances. More specifically, I'm refuting the idea that the greataxe "easily trumps" the greatsword.

[ericgrau]

Speaking of which... I have a javascript I wrote to calculate melee build effectiveness based on stats: ability scores, natural armor, save bonuses, and any other attack roll/AC/save/hp/damage bonuses. If you give me the tauren's stats I could calculate an LA based on core builds. Then you adjust up or down based on the number of special abilities the tauren has, then you adjust down if your group optimizes well.

The script calculates damage-before-death based on average monster stats, assuming 75% of attacks are physical, 25% are save-based and some rough assumptions about how well which save types disable you. I can keep readjusting LA until damage-before-death is near the best PHB melee, the dwarf. By stats anyway: +2 con, -2 only to cha and +2 to saves are nice. Ya I know in core water orc is even better, and so is orc and a couple other MM races for that matter. And the script doesn't consider things like move speed nor a pile of minor special abilities.

[Kerilstrasz]

Just a thought...
If you are not very attached on the Tauren, talk with your Dm.
Explain him that due to poor choice of race you feel bad stealing some of the fun and ask for his help to change your race to smthing more suitable.
Maybe he can have a NPC curse you in race change, or an "on purpose" backfired wish, that your Dm will provide just for that purpose.

[Feint's End]

Yeah, that was fun stuff. I always like it when problems can be solved with pure logic and math. Still, I'm saying that greatswords are better than greataxes, rather than better in all circumstances. More specifically, I'm refuting the idea that the greataxe "easily trumps" the greatsword.

Yes ofc I absolutely agree with you on this one. Probably I should change the colour to blue :smallcool:

[Ansem]

Problem is, he's a fighter.....
You should never play a straight fighter unless you need the feats for PrC or multiclass.
So he should dip a few levels in Barbarian and them aim for a PrC if he wants to remain melee. It's either this and he becomes a viable melee combatant again, on par with the rest or he'll suck forever by staying fighter, a boring underpowered class.

[ericgrau]

He's casting level 2 spells and is in a low optimization group... all this stuff about class goes out the window and doesn't apply yet. People gotta stop obsessing over tier, it isn't healthy. Especially when talking about casual games rather than TO (or rather than something in between TO and casual). This isn't about versatility and tricks, he's hitting too hard and surviving too easily because his stats are too high. That's as "low tier" as it gets.

I once accidentally went too far and got fighter banned for being OP. At epic level. It's all relative to group.