[PF/3.X] No spellcasting - what benefit

[The Insanity]

I want to give my players that don't want to play casters the option to forsake the ability to cast spells/manifest powers (something like the Karsite's racial ability) in exchange for a benefit that would bring them at least a little closer in power to Tier 1-2, but I'm drawing a blank on what could be considered a good enough replacement for the potential to wield the ultimate power. Note, I'm not trying to make Tier 1-2 martials or anything like that. I'm just giving more power to lower Tiers.
I was considering giving them a higher pointbuy at character creation (like JaronK is suggesting in his Tier System thread), but I'm not sure how much higher would be enough, without being too much.
Or maybe you guys have better ideas?

[13_CBS]

Is the Tome of Battle an option? That book contains a lot of things for melee non-spellcasters to do that can neatly decrease the gap between casters and non-casters.

[The Insanity]

To be clear - I'm not asking for build advice. I'm asking for suggestions on a fair benefit for giving up casting/manifesting.

[13_CBS]

Well, I was just wondering if allowing your players access to the Warblade, Crusader, and Swordsage classes and the Maneuvers found within Tome of Battle was viable: if one of your players wants to play an offensively-oriented melee character, perhaps he could try a Warblade and enjoy Tier 3 goodness, and so forth. Maneuvers often replicate certain things that only spells could do previously, so I figured giving your players some Maneuvers might help.

[The Insanity]

Again, that's not the topic of this thread.
Allowing better classes really isn't a benefit, because they already are allowed and it's not even a solution, because not every of my players might want to play a ToB class (for whatever reason).
I'm looking for a benefit that can be added equally to any (non-casting) PC, regardless of class.
I don't mean to be rude, but I'm not sure if I can be any more clearer than that. I wasn't, sorry.

[Psyren]

He's saying you can add maneuvers to them, independently of the classes themselves. So you have, say, a rogue, and give it some free Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw maneuvers, or a monk with free Setting Sun and Diamond Mind maneuvers.

Failing that, giving them soulmelds (or just the abilities granted by the soulmelds without the actual soulmelds) is an idea.

[The Insanity]

Okay, but tacking on other class's features isn't exactly what I'm looking for.
Apparently I'm having trouble with communicating my goals, so let me change my approach.

How much higher pointbuy would you give such a "Spellless" character (lets say the standard is 15 points)?
Or what template would you give, for free, to this "Spellless" character (remember that the point is to give every non-casting PC the same thing, but fairly equally beneficial to all of them, whether it's a Fighter or Rogue or Monk)?

[nyjastul69]

Okay, but tacking on other class's features isn't exactly what I'm looking for.

How much higher pointbuy would you give such a "Spellless" character?

More ability points won't close the gap much, if at all. What level characters are being considered?

[The Insanity]

There's no level yet. I'm making houserules/homebrew for future games.

This doesn't really have to close the gap, I'm just trying to give a reasonably fair benefit. I see that my first post wasn't worded clearly, for which I apologize. I'm going to edit it.

A thing I was thinking about was to give them the benefits of the Advanced template plus a template-ified Karsite, which would mean: +4 to all abilities (+6 to Con and Cha), Spell Resistance that heals and some other minor benefits from Karsite (well, minus human traits of course).

[ArcturusV]

Well, as a baseline consider things like the "Spellless Variants" from Complete Warrior... which give the effect of a 1/day 4 points to a stat or so. And no one in the right mind would ever suggest that you ditch even relatively minor casting like that of a Ranger or a Paladin to pick up that (Among a few other minor abilities of less note).

So you know at the very least that +4 to a stat isn't worth giving up spellcasting. There's at least a baseline of comparison.

It MIGHT be worth considering giving them free LA? That can solve some of the problems that usually come up with the lack of magic. So giving someone who wants to play a Fighter a free 3 LA for the Devil Blooded Template... yeah. Maybe. DR, Flight, Natural Weapons, various "devil abilities", Natural Armor that equals character level, sure.

But as interesting as that might be, it doesn't really fit a lot of character concepts. It's not like you can tack Half-Ogre Demonblooded Vampire on something that you wanted to play as a more or less human fighter of legend. Well, could maybe, depending on the legend. But yeah.

So yeah, 4 stat points won't do it. That in a point buy is a big swing, as you're talking 4 points to a primary stat, so something like +16 over your standard point buy. Taking extra feats might be a thing... but eh. I'm kinda leery about that. There's a reason no one takes Fighter to 20 (But might consider Ranger to that point, or Paladin), bonus feats aren't a good return on investment.

Honestly probably your easiest, best bet is to up the Skill Points on spellless classes that are sucking on skill points. I mean... a Fighter. He's a swordsman who has to live with his wits and his training. No magic tricks, no fancy super power rages or anything to Hulk Smash. He should have more than 2 skill points per level. Upping it to 6? Sounds like a good deal and it will at least help some schmuck fighter who doesn't have magic have enough points to play around with to do stuff out of Stabbery.

[theIrkin]

wealth in the form of magic items for combat (can't be sold because the DM says so) could also help to even the playing field, if that's your concern. but it also comes down to the players (i.e. how optimized they are, and whether your spellcaster wants to outshine your melee characters)

[The Insanity]

It MIGHT be worth considering giving them free LA? That can solve some of the problems that usually come up with the lack of magic. So giving someone who wants to play a Fighter a free 3 LA for the Devil Blooded Template... yeah. Maybe. DR, Flight, Natural Weapons, various "devil abilities", Natural Armor that equals character level, sure.
Having some templates isn't a problem, because refluffing is a thing, but this might mean one player getting a better benefit than another, which I want to avoid. I don't want any complaints about unfairness (mind you, I'm not playing with complainers, I'm simply trying to make this fair).


Honestly probably your easiest, best bet is to up the Skill Points on spellless classes that are sucking on skill points. I mean... a Fighter. He's a swordsman who has to live with his wits and his training. No magic tricks, no fancy super power rages or anything to Hulk Smash. He should have more than 2 skill points per level. Upping it to 6? Sounds like a good deal and it will at least help some schmuck fighter who doesn't have magic have enough points to play around with to do stuff out of Stabbery.
This would mean I had to customize each benefit for each PC, which is not something I want to do. As stated, I'm looking for a fair benefit, regardless of class.
You don't have to overthink this. I already did make some houserules to empower weaker classes and I'm a reasonable DM who allows most things, so ToB and stuff is available. I'm just trying to find a good benefit to counteract this "template's" restriction, is all.

[Cerussite]

Okay, but tacking on other class's features isn't exactly what I'm looking for.
Apparently I'm having trouble with communicating my goals, so let me change my approach.

How much higher pointbuy would you give such a "Spellless" character (lets say the standard is 15 points)?
Or what template would you give, for free, to this "Spellless" character (remember that the point is to give every non-casting PC the same thing, but fairly equally beneficial to all of them, whether it's a Fighter or Rogue or Monk)?

You can get a 50 point buy, and a fighter is still completely lacking in the ability to do anything outside combat and he still can't touch a flying opponent, while a 24 point buy wizard can do both of these if he wants to. Templates are also weak in that respect unless you're minmaxing IME (which isn't too much in the case of templates, admittedly).

Maneuvers are very useful for any melee class, and help close the gap a lot more than spiffy templates.

[The Insanity]

Maneuvers are very useful for any melee class, and help close the gap a lot more than spiffy templates.
That's nice, but I already said this isn't what I'm looking for.

[ArcturusV]

You're... not really going to find it. I mean what a Barbarian needs, and what a Fighter needs, and what a Rogue needs, are three vastly different things. There is no one universal benefit you could give them... except... maybe triple wealth compared to other classes? That's just spellless in core, and already such divergent needs that you're not going to find one easy fix. The Rogue wants stealth benefits, defeating things like Scent, Mindsight, Arcane Sight, etc. The barbarian generally wants things like strict damage boosts, size, strength, con to rage longer, pounce, etc. Fighters want bonuses to their combat maneuvers, trippery, bull rushing, etc. Something that makes those extra fighter feats more effective as they are, by nature, going to go for combat tricks.

But yeah. Just core and you're not really having a simple universal fix. Doesn't exist... except maybe throwing a buttload more money at them.

[The Insanity]

But I'm not looking for an universal fix... just a reasonably fair benefit... :smallfrown:

If you can't think of an idea then maybe at least give your opinion on mine.

[Psyren]

Check out Super Genius Games' archetype packages. You can swap out the spellcasting from one class for a set of class features from another (for example, a Bard could drop its spellcasting in exchange for a rogue's sneak attack and trap sense) or from one of their own brand new set of packages. It's a bit tough to wrap your head around at first but there are a ton of options to choose from, so hopefully something will spark an idea. You can find them all on the PFSRD.

[ArcturusV]

Well, fix, benefit, same thing in my mind. I mean you're giving them something in reference to them being weaker for not having magic.

A thing to watch out for? If you make the benefit too good? Someone will go Monk 1, Druid 19 or something. Particularly if you're starting above level 1.

Oh, forgot monk in my read earlier. That's... an unholy mess of things that it needs.

But it'd have to be better than 4 points in your primary stats in point buy. And even then it probably won't be good enough. So I don't think enhanced point buy is really the solution. It's nice for halfcasters like MAD Paladins and Rangers... or really the ultra "I need all stats" Monk... but probably not all that hot for something like a Fighter who is relatively dual stat dependent, Strength and Con, who cares about the rest? Maybe 13 Dex and Int for feat requirements.

[The Insanity]

Check out Super Genius Games' archetype packages. You can swap out the spellcasting from one class for a set of class features from another (for example, a Bard could drop its spellcasting in exchange for a rogue's sneak attack and trap sense) or from one of their own brand new set of packages. It's a bit tough to wrap your head around at first but there are a ton of options to choose from, so hopefully something will spark an idea. You can find them all on the PFSRD.
... not the point... :smallsigh:
I'm making a template - that gives up spellcasting/manifesting - looking for benefit in place of the spellcasting/manifesting.


Someone will go Monk 1, Druid 19 or something. Particularly if you're starting above level 1.
No, they won't. They gave up spellcasting/manifesting, remember?

Any class could use more points. With, for example, a +4 to all abilities they can easily dump those that they don't need (and still have them at a decent number) and heighten those they do.

[Psyren]

To replace spells you either need:

- Items that replicate those spells
- Class/Racial Features that replicate those spells

That's it. The game isn't balanced any other way. Numerical bonuses will h
help, but they only go so far - they don't let you counter debilitating conditions, or grant you new movement modes, or increase your action economy, or prevent/negate the actions of your enemies etc.

[Coidzor]

Well, you could open up this homebrew combat subsystem (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217700) to those who forego casting completely, in addition to other options.

The only other things that come to mind are throwing them some Incarnum love or giving them an inherent progression on the "necessary"/"expected" magical item bonuses so they can spend their wealth instead on cool toys, like a vow of poverty fix without the poverty.


Check out Super Genius Games' archetype packages. You can swap out the spellcasting from one class for a set of class features from another (for example, a Bard could drop its spellcasting in exchange for a rogue's sneak attack and trap sense) or from one of their own brand new set of packages. It's a bit tough to wrap your head around at first but there are a ton of options to choose from, so hopefully something will spark an idea. You can find them all on the PFSRD.

Ooo, neato.


He's saying you can add maneuvers to them, independently of the classes themselves. So you have, say, a rogue, and give it some free Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw maneuvers, or a monk with free Setting Sun and Diamond Mind maneuvers.

Maybe let them take a martial adept ACF of their class(es) without the usual trade-offs?

[The Insanity]

To replace spells
That's the thing, though. I'm not trying to replicate spells. I made them go away. It doesn't make sense to just give them right back in a different form.

Vow of Poverty? What/where is that? Is it that feat in BoED? I guess it could work. Maybe tweaked a little...

[Psyren]

That's the thing, though. I'm not trying to replicate spells. I made them go away. It doesn't make sense to just give them right back in a different form.

That depends on the monsters you're going to use; past a certain CR, the game starts assuming you have various effects at your disposal. Those wights for instance are going to assume you picked up Restoration somewhere, the gorgon will assume you have flesh to stone/break enchantment, lycanthropes will assume you have remove curse, dragons assume you'll have ways to resist fear/energy etc.

[The Insanity]

That depends on the monsters you're going to use; past a certain CR, the game starts assuming you have various effects at your disposal. Those wights for instance are going to assume you picked up Restoration somewhere, the gorgon will assume you have flesh to stone/break enchantment, lycanthropes will assume you have remove curse, dragons assume you'll have ways to resist fear/energy etc.
Ehm... They will have those effects (probably). If one of the players takes a casting class.

[3WhiteFox3]

... not the point... :smallsigh:
I'm making a template - that gives up spellcasting/manifesting - looking for benefit in place of the spellcasting/manifesting

That's the problem, under no circumstance is losing spellcasting/manifesting and gaining anything less than that a benefit. It is always a detriment.

The other problem is that the full casting classes (with the possible exception of the druid) don't have enough class features without spellcasting to be remotely playable. So if you were going to do this anyway, you'd have to remake the classes to even make them playable.

Now Paladin/Ranger? I don't know, even they rely on their spellcasting to keep up with the other non-casting classes. Since they are low-tier anyway, maybe just give them some bigger numbers on their class abilities (they'd need to be very big if you wanted them to be tier 4) maybe something like 5 times the number daily smites for the Paladin and boosts to things like Lay On Hands; another idea would be to give them specific abilities that mimic spells but are directly from the forces of good and act as daily-use supernatural abilities that are fixed. For the ranger you could give them a full animal companion and/or drop casting for Wildshape (as a druid, not as a wildshape ranger). This will still probably smart compared to actual spells, but it'd be something at least.

[The Insanity]

That's the problem, under no circumstance is losing spellcasting/manifesting and gaining anything less than that a benefit. It is always a detriment.
When you don't have spellcasting then it is a benefit.


The other problem is that the full casting classes (with the possible exception of the druid) don't have enough class features without spellcasting to be remotely playable. So if you were going to do this anyway, you'd have to remake the classes to even make them playable.
I beg to differ. But that's not really the point. It's geared towards those PCs that don't want to play a spellcasting class.

[Maginomicon]

There is no bandaid to the problem. It can only be solved by attacking it from various angles.

To accomplish what you want to do, you need to do two things:

Enable mundanes to hit binary defenses (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1533.0) (or things similar to binary defenses) far more often.
Force non-mundanes to hit gradual defenses (or things similar to gradual defenses) far more often.


Further, it would help a lot to:

Give mundanes an actual leg-up.
Allow all mundanes access to non-mundane-like abilities.
Make extremely powerful and/or versatile non-mundane abilities take longer in practice to acquire or use.
Make casters more inherently vulnerable.


How I personally did these things was by combining the following implementations together (in order):

Called Shots (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=300755) (gives mundanes the most access to a new kind of binary defense)
"Save" Points (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=306961) (makes the most common binary defenses become gradual defenses)
...and then...
Allow all pure-mundanes to gestalt. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282484) (gives mundanes an actual leg-up)
Use the SRD's Incantation system (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm) with divine Incantations and psionic-equivalent Communals (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=299864) (gives mundanes access to non-mundane abilities)
"Charged" Incantations/Communals (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307549) (makes powerful/versatile non-mundane effects take more time to acquire and use)
Casters become innately vulnerable to fatigue/exhaustion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287954)

[Red Rubber Band]

Well you have to have spell casting to lose it. So yes, it is always a detriment.

As has been mentioned before, there's no real "blanket buff" you can give people -that hasn't been mentioned already in this thread- that will empower non-casters enough throughout the entirety of their adventuring career.

[The Insanity]

Well you have to have spell casting to lose it. So yes, it is always a detriment.
Uh, no.

You take a Fighter. He has no spells. He takes this "Spellless" template. He gave up the ability to acquire/cast/manifest spells/powers.

See?


There is no bandaid to the problem.
There's only one problem and none of your suggestions address it.

[IronFist]

You mentioned the karsite abilities. Why don't you use exactly that?

[Red Rubber Band]

Uh, no.

You take a Fighter. He has no spells. He takes this "Spellless" template. He gave up the ability to acquire/cast/manifest spells/powers.

See?

Again, you're not losing spell casting. You're giving up your ability to, in the future, cast spells.
It's semantics, but it was also started by such.


There's only one problem and none of your suggestions address it.

I've seen it be addressed a few times in this thread. Maybe read back over the thread.

[The Insanity]

You mentioned the karsite abilities. Why don't you use exactly that?
For what? You can't possibly mean for the benefit.


Again, you're not losing spell casting. You're giving up your ability to, in the future, cast spells.
Um... that was the point from the very beginning?


I've seen it be addressed a few times in this thread. Maybe read back over the thread.
Yeah, a few. Uh, so? I said "none of your suggestions address it" in response to Maginomicon's big list.
If you're here just to argue semantics and not help then please, just don't.

[DeAnno]

Gestalting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm)? Ie: If you give up your ability to cast spells you get to be gestalt?

It helps address the versatility concern a bit at least. It sort of incorporates most of the solutions mentioned, in that a Rogue could gestalt with Warblade if he wanted maneuvers, or gestalt with Totemist if he wanted incarnum, or gestalt with Fighter if he didn't care much and just wanted to be simple (and at least he'd get something he wanted/understood).

[Maginomicon]

There's only one problem and none of your suggestions address it.If you honestly think there's only one problem, then you're naive, misinformed, or both.

In my main campaign setting, I have a "no spells" homebrew template. People who take this LA+0 template can never cast spells in the traditional sense. That's exactly what you're looking for, right? Here's the thing though. It's not good enough. You have to provide an alternative direction by attacking the issue on both a mechanical level and on a fluff level. I attacked it mechanically through what I described above PLUS some minor unique mechanical benefits, and I attacked it in fluff by making spellcasting taboo and feared by the general populace along with giving the template the fluff material to make it socially advantageous.

If you can't give them power or versatility, you can give them campaign-specific benefits that socially outweigh the losses.

[The Insanity]

Gestalting is already allowed. And it's not something you would get from a template.


If you honestly think there's only one problem, then you're naive, misinformed, or both.
Please, lets not be rude, okay? I simply want a benefit for a template. You're making a bigger deal out of it then it needs to be. :smallannoyed:

[IronFist]

For what? You can't possibly mean for the benefit.

Uh, why not?

[The Insanity]

They're hardly worth it even without giving up spellcasting. I'm considering them plus the Advanced template, and people are saying it's not enough.

[Maginomicon]

Please, lets not be rude, okay? I simply want a benefit for a template. You're making a bigger deal out of it then it needs to be. :smallannoyed:
While my words may have been somewhat brash, it's not rude to state an observation of likelihood.

Countless discussions have taken place for years on-end (D&D 3.5 is now over 10 years old) grappling with the notion of non-mundanes being more powerful and more versatile than mundanes, and the short/sweet answer is there is no band-aid to solve the problem. This is relevant here because "a template that would give mundanes a suitable benefit for losing access to spellcasting/manifesting" is intrinsically an attempt to put a band-aid on that specific issue (even if only unintentionally).

If you want to make an argument that that's not what you're not trying to do, then by all means express that and defend it. From what you've said so far though, the scope of what you're asking for is far more complicated than a simple template could do alone.

[IronFist]

They're hardly worth it even without giving up spellcasting. I'm considering them plus the Advanced template, and people are saying it's not enough.

Of course it's not enough. Nothing short of spells will be enough, because you're giving up spells.

[The Insanity]

I want to give my players that don't want to play casters the option to forsake the ability to cast spells/manifest powers (something like the Karsite's racial ability) in exchange for a benefit that would bring them at least a little closer in power to Tier 1-2, but I'm drawing a blank on what could be considered a good enough replacement for the potential to wield the ultimate power. Note, I'm not trying to make Tier 1-2 martials or anything like that. I'm just giving more power to lower Tiers.
I was considering giving them a higher pointbuy at character creation (like JaronK is suggesting in his Tier System thread), but I'm not sure how much higher would be enough, without being too much.
Or maybe you guys have better ideas?

There's no level yet. I'm making houserules/homebrew for future games.

This doesn't really have to close the gap, I'm just trying to give a reasonably fair benefit. I see that my first post wasn't worded clearly, for which I apologize. I'm going to edit it.

A thing I was thinking about was to give them the benefits of the Advanced template plus a template-ified Karsite, which would mean: +4 to all abilities (+6 to Con and Cha), Spell Resistance that heals and some other minor benefits from Karsite (well, minus human traits of course).


That's the thing, though. I'm not trying to replicate spells. I made them go away. It doesn't make sense to just give them right back in a different form.

Vow of Poverty? What/where is that? Is it that feat in BoED? I guess it could work. Maybe tweaked a little...
Here are the relevant parts.


Of course it's not enough. Nothing short of spells will be enough, because you're giving up spells.
Well, in no way am I trying to match the spellcasting. So maybe they're overreacting?

[IronFist]

Well, in no way am I trying to match the spellcasting. So maybe they're overreacting?
Probably. Thing is, you're giving anyone that does not cast spells a freebie, right? Those can't be offensive/utility abilities because they would not apply equally to all noncaster classes (unless you use a big pile of options). What you can do is give static modifier and/or defensive abilities, because those apply to everyone.
No, it's not as powerful as spells. But it's something. I guess that's as far as you'll get with this idea.

Not that I would do anything even remotely similar to this in my games, anyway.

[The Insanity]

JaronK suggests giving higher pointbuy to lower Tiered classes. I'm making it an actual template. That way a player can't start the game with a Rogue with 40 pb and then multiclass into a Cleric. I'm not saying he does it intentionally as a cheat. He simply makes a commitment for a benefit, clear and simple. No backsies.

[Curmudgeon]

Here's what I use. As others have pointed out, it's only a start.

Adjust the points available for point buy (points used to buy stats, as per DMG page 169) based on the Tier System for Classes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266559):

15 point buy (This is where the Wizard is.)
22 point buy
28 point buy
32 point buy
40 point buy (This is where the Monk is.)
You might try 50 here, but this tier is pretty hopeless.
This assumes you're going to start in your primary class. If you change the primary class in later levels you'd retroactively lose points if necessary, but would never retroactively gain points.

[13_CBS]

Here are the relevant parts.


Alright, I apologize for being obtuse here, Insanity, but just so I'm understanding you 100% (because I appear to have failed to do so last time :smallfrown:):

You want some kind of thing--a template, more stats, something--to give to players who are playing non-spellcasting classes, who will also never multiclass into a spellcasting class, so that the gap between them and spellcasting classes is at least a little diminished.

Is this correct? If so...

What about the Feral template from Savage Species? It's a template that gives you a bunch of stuff like a speed boost, natural armor boost, natural weapons, and special attacks (Improved Grab, Pounce, etc.) as the creature goes up in HD. It also grants scaling Darkvision and Fast Healing. Strangely, it's also only LA +1 :smallconfused: Perhaps you could use this, or modify it to your tastes.

I think a modified "Warforged-ish" template might also help. In case you are unfamiliar with them, Warforged are a playable magical robot race from the Eberron setting books. The parts you might want to scavenge are...

Built-in armor (basically acts like Leather Armor that you can't take off--feel free to modify this however you want)
Immunity to certain things like sleep-effects, paralysis, nausea, poison, exhaustion, etc.
Automatic stabilization when at less than 0 hitpoints
Natural Slam attack

Again, apologies for the misunderstandings. :smallfrown: I hope this will help.

[Coidzor]

Aside from increasing their defenses, giving extra movement options, and gaining special qualities and attacks ala Feral or tacking on something like Incarnum... Maybe increase the number of skillpoints they have (though, I'd recommend pumping up all of the 2+int classes to the 4+int tier anyway) and possibly the number of skilltricks they can have.

I suppose you could give out some bonus feats at 1st level and then every 4 or 5 or 6 HD or allow bonus traits/expanded flexibility in selecting traits.

[Gorfnod]

PERFECT SOLUTION INCOMING!!!!

Drolyt's Vow of Poverty Fix
(http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140428)

This quote is used as a variant to improve lower tiers, primarily non-casters.


To make martial classes more useful, give all tier 4, 5, and 6 classes without spellcasting this feat as a bonus feat, but take away the restrictions. They can have as many items as they want and they can have magic items. In other words they get all the benefits, but aren't actually taking a vow of poverty. They lose this feat if they multiclass as a spellcaster or martial adept.

I added the bolded part for this particular situation.

[johnbragg]

Something I haven't thought through very much at all, or I'd be tossing them out in Homebrew:


Option 1. When characters with the "Mundane Hero" template reach +6 BAB, they roll double damage dice on all their attacks. When they reach +12 BAB, triple damage dice. If it's some sort of special attack roll that doesn't do damage, maybe add the weapon damage die to the d20 attack roll.

Do high HD monsters get the same benefit? If so, it boosts their CRs. If not, does it lower their CRs? I dunno.

Option 2: "The Stuff of Legends" Go through the spell lists, and very, very carefully select dontsayspells that could sorta-kinda-logically be effects of just being a huge heroic badass. STuff like Divine Power, True STrike, Bulls' Strength, Cats Grace, Bears Endurance, CLW/Lesser Vigor once a day. Haste once a day? Maybe Rogues could use this to turn Invisible while hiding once a day.

Or maybe the mundane could cast Dispel MAgic with a weapon strike.

The only other way to narrow the gap between the Thor/Iron Man/Hulk classes and the Hawkeye/Captain America/Agent Coulson classes is to limit the spellcasters.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

For what you want there's a simple, easy to apply, straightforward fix that has been used to some success before;

Levels 1-4: no change
Levels 5-8: for every 2 levels of non-high-tier, a character gets an extra level of non-high-tier. Skills, BAB, ability increases, feats and the like increase normally at the extra levels.
Levels 9-13: for every level of non-high-tier, a character gets an extra level of non-high-tier.
Levels 14-20: for every level of non-high-tier, a character gets two extra levels of non-high-tier. Epic feats and classes can be used if applicable.
Special: High tiers are either tiers 1-3, or all full casters. In the case of classes that progress spellcasting at half levels or give limited-access casting like Beguiler, Shadowcaster, count them as high tier at even levels and low tier at odd levels. When considering multiclass characters, always count their level progression at the most beneficial order regardless of what the actual order is.


For example at ECL 20 the arcane caster would have 20 levels, the divine caster again 20 levels, the Beguiler-like casters would have 20 levels plus 10 more levels of noncasters, and the full noncasters would have 41 levels.


NOTES
1) This should balance combats against optimized monsters. A Phrenic Elder Air Elemental advanced to 52 HD is an example of optimized CR 20 as it has spell resistance of 60, very good offense, saves and hit points and potentially up to DR 50/-.
2) If you don't want to use optimized monsters, use multiple monsters. At ECL 20, an army of demons is far more appropriate an encounter than a single Balor that will die to the wizard's first spell. If nothing else, giving a half-dozen enemies per PC will mean the wizard will have to go through a half-dozen spells to take out his part of the encounter.
3) Raise the skill DCs as appropriate or provide complex skill challenges. Suddenly, the stealth challenge isn't very easy for non-rogues if the high-level enemy can defeat illusions with a spot check and wizards getting a bazillion skill points will be less useful than the Bard getting her skills at really high levels.
4) Social challenges will be harder to magically bypass. Sure, you could try dominating the noble socially opposing you. However, with him being of high enough level to have a decent chance to resist your dominate then declare you a lawbreaker you'll think twice before doing it.

[Hangwind]

Really, I feel like you are looking for something that isn't 3.5. There is a REASON for the fourth edition.

That said, there is are two universal and easy fixes.

The first is to give all non-spell casters bonus rounds. To be more specific, allow the barbarian to take two rounds to the wizards one. This would have to scale with level, but is easy and benefits all classes in the same way.

The alternative is to give those willing to give up spellcasting immunities or defenses to various kinds of magical attacks. Again this would have to scale with your level, but as you progressed in mundane classes you would get better and more immunities. This would force spellcasters to think and prepare instead of merely being mini-gods the way they are now.

If someone wanted the option of casting later, you could make these templates equal their mundane levels minus their casting levels.

So a Fighter 20 would actually have two levels of progression in the template above a Fighter 19/Wizard 1.

Obviously I don't have the exact progressions mapped out yet, but it's a start.

[johnbragg]

Something I haven't thought through very much at all, or I'd be tossing them out in Homebrew:


Option 1. Extra Damage Dice When characters with the "Mundane Hero" template reach +6 BAB, they roll double damage dice on all their attacks. When they reach +12 BAB, triple damage dice. If it's some sort of special attack roll that doesn't do damage, maybe add the weapon damage die to the d20 attack roll.

Do high HD monsters get the same benefit? If so, it boosts their CRs. If not, does it lower their CRs? I dunno.

Option 2: "The Stuff of Legends" Go through the spell lists, and very, very carefully select dontsayspells that could sorta-kinda-logically be effects of just being a huge heroic badass. STuff like Divine Power, True STrike, Bulls' Strength, Cats Grace, Bears Endurance, CLW/Lesser Vigor once a day. Haste once a day? Maybe Rogues could use this to turn Invisible while hiding once a day.

Or maybe the mundane could cast Dispel MAgic with a weapon strike.

The only other way to narrow the gap between the Thor/Iron Man/Hulk classes and the Hawkeye/Captain America/Agent Coulson classes is to limit the spellcasters.

Another poorly thought out--actually, not at all thought out--idea.

Option 3. The Mundane Hero template lets you add 1/2 BAB to all damage rolls as a competence bonus.