How to counter Min/maxed wizards

[thebladeofchaos]

For once, it's not a problem of mine, this is to help the DM out.

So, in our party the DM has set it so that Wizards begin at level 3, fighter types at 5 and others at 4, and whilst my pair and the holy pair (this is the cleric who wouldn't heal me that we resolved awhile back) are sustainable and indeed are good in the eyes of the DM, he is concerned about the party fighter and party wizard...well, more the wizard.

Basically, just about every save against the wizard has become '20's always a pass' in our house rule, as he is getting rolls that need a save of 28 or so, and through this, the DM is struggling to counter him and the plot appears to be going awry. (heck, in our last engagement, we fought a group of soldiers and, whilst the fighter took down at least 10 of them on his own, the wizard managed to turn the tables with a simple fear spell sending about 15 of them fleeing for their lives)

According to the DM himself, he wants to start everyone back at level 1 so that he isn't as powerful, something I've commented on as being 'ridiculous' seeing as it's bringing everyone down when the wizard can still be that broken at level one.

So, in order to aid him, how would you counter said wizard? (fighter is easy, it's loads upon loads of spells (heck, polymorph other object into several things to bring his strength up to the point where a punch unproficient had a bonus of like 15 damage) so a simple dispell would do it.) it's kinda sad that I have to ask this considering circumstances (I like my rogue and ranger :smalleek: ) but I'd rather see the adventure continue then just restart due to him unable to contain a character or two.

[olentu]

Ask the player to tone it down.

[Ortesk]

For once, it's not a problem of mine, this is to help the DM out.

So, in our party the DM has set it so that Wizards begin at level 3, fighter types at 5 and others at 4, and whilst my pair and the holy pair (this is the cleric who wouldn't heal me that we resolved awhile back) are sustainable and indeed are good in the eyes of the DM, he is concerned about the party fighter and party wizard...well, more the wizard.

Basically, just about every save against the wizard has become '20's always a pass' in our house rule, as he is getting rolls that need a save of 28 or so, and through this, the DM is struggling to counter him and the plot appears to be going awry. (heck, in our last engagement, we fought a group of soldiers and, whilst the fighter took down at least 10 of them on his own, the wizard managed to turn the tables with a simple fear spell sending about 15 of them fleeing for their lives)

According to the DM himself, he wants to start everyone back at level 1 so that he isn't as powerful, something I've commented on as being 'ridiculous' seeing as it's bringing everyone down when the wizard can still be that broken at level one.

So, in order to aid him, how would you counter said wizard? (fighter is easy, it's loads upon loads of spells (heck, polymorph other object into several things to bring his strength up to the point where a punch unproficient had a bonus of like 15 damage) so a simple dispell would do it.) it's kinda sad that I have to ask this considering circumstances (I like my rogue and ranger :smalleek: ) but I'd rather see the adventure continue then just restart due to him unable to contain a character or two.

do you want a counter to him or do you want him to be turned into dust?

[Red Fel]

Ask the player to tone it down.

Essentially, this. Talk to the player.

Short of dropping spell resistances and immunities all over the place, or turning half the planet into a dead magic zone, there is very little the DM can do to stop a well-optimized Wizard from overshadowing just about everything. The Wizard is a powerful, versatile class, and a skillful player is able to maximize this potency from low levels; at higher levels it only gets more broken. Very little can be done to nerf the Wizard in-game that won't hurt the other classes more.

What you can do is speak to the player outside of the game. Explain that he is overplaying his hand, making the rest of the party redundant, and making things a little less fun. Do this one-on-one, rather than in front of everybody, so he won't be defensive; explain it calmly, remind him that you like his character and enjoy having him in the group; and then politely ask him to try to tone down his pewpewery just a little.

[animewatcha]

And if he keeps it up, save DC x 3 = percentile chance that the gods of magic decide to be a **** and have the spell not go through?

[AMFV]

20 is always a pass on saving throws... that's not a houserule, natural 20s succeed on saves and attack roles by default. Can we have some more info as to what exact tactics he's using that we can maybe formulate some things that might challenge him more?

[Crazysaneman]

Generally asking my players to tone it down is like asking them to sacrifice their firstborn to nerull, or pulling teeth. Whatever suits your purpose.
As a DM, I like to throw high fort save spells and poisons at my wizards as a warning. Wizards with high power and high save spells tend to get their names and descriptions known, therefore are targeted first in combat as they are the greatest threat. The wizards in my group like to complain about things like that. This brings around the "well how do you think I feel when you do this to me, every round, every combat. Tone it down or it gets worse from here." speech. That works for my group, though YMMV. Tell your DM to remember that fact. He is the DM, and he can come up with a completely logical reason why that problem wizard wakes up dead. Or without a tongue. Or fingers. Or a familiar.
Another route he could go is to seperate the wizard from the rest of the group for singular combats... for example spell duels.

In either case the best of luck to him :smallcool:

[Efstrofos]

First, just tell him not to be a jerk. It's a cooperative game and everyone wants to have fun.

Second, please post the build of a 3rd level wizard who's spells have a DC of 28.

[thebladeofchaos]

Ortesk: countered. reduced to dust would have the rest of the party struggle even more.

With regard to asking him to tone it down: that makes the most sense. on the bright side he isn't actually using offensive spells at all. like literally no magic missile, no fireballs, nothing that would harm at all which is nice.

With regard to targetting him first: the fighter he also controls has a reach of 10ft and never really seperates from the wizard if in a fight that the party can't pin the line down easily. and if we can the fighter pretty much kills everything anyway. Your basically asking him to surprise us with an archer who has a poisoned weapon, and then I wouldn't be surprised it'd fail seeing as two of us are awake most of the time. (saying that, somehow a cleric can heal an Elf who's fully awake without the elf noticing at all. explain that one)

He's not actually being a jerk thankfully, it's just he knows how to play the system to REALLY get what he needs. I just think the DM is pretty much stuck in a situation he'd rather not plan for considering we're learning more then we should. (though it's pretty much assumed we know right now anyway)

I wasn't being exact when I said DC 28 saves, it's low 20's though, like 23 or 24.

[Pickford]

First, just tell him not to be a jerk. It's a cooperative game and everyone wants to have fun.

Second, please post the build of a 3rd level wizard who's spells have a DC of 28.

Hrm...if he's level 3, a 2nd level spell would be 10+2+intmod (let's say he has 18 int, +2 from gray elf?...then +4 from fox's cunning for a total of +7 when the crunch happens.

On top of that, let's say he's got both Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus, that's another +2...so at level 3 we're looking at a level 2 spell DC of 10+2+2+7 or 21. Presumably maximum and 20 for level 1. Of course, that's assuming he either buffs himself for combat (perhaps scrolls or a wand, you could crank out the scrolls for just what...4 xp and 50gp? (CL 2) or 2 xp and 25 gp (CL 1) That's pretty affordable.

Then let's say he's using some lowbie save or dies like Blindness, Ghoul Touch (where if you fail, you're probably gonna get murdered)...if the opponents are say, CR 5 (because of the Fighter?) they are pretty much gonna fail.

Edit: Followup...

First off, there's really nothing wrong with Wizards, you just need experience as a DM to understand what they can do, and what they're horribly weak against without going overboard and TPKing the group in an attempt to present a challenge.

Recommend you introduce some opposing spellcasters, ideally an Abjurer. (i.e. Dispel Magic, PFE, etc..., things to ruin the wizards day without killing anyone)

[Feytalist]

The best way to counter a min/maxed wizard is with a min/maxed wizard.

A dedicated counterspeller should do the trick. Or, for a bit of fun, a Divine Defiance cleric because why not. Bump him to 5th level, load him out with dispel magic, and let him at the party.

That isn't a permanent fix, of course, but could make for an interesting encounter. Just don't make every encounter a counterspeller encounter. Unless... recurring villain? Heh.

[Mystral]

Basically, just about every save against the wizard has become '20's always a pass' in our house rule,

This is no houserule, but an official rule. 1 is also always a miss with saving throws.


as he is getting rolls that need a save of 28 or so, and through this, the DM is struggling to counter him and the plot appears to be going awry. (heck, in our last engagement, we fought a group of soldiers and, whilst the fighter took down at least 10 of them on his own, the wizard managed to turn the tables with a simple fear spell sending about 15 of them fleeing for their lives)

What do you mean, he gets rolls?

And thats what fear does, it scares away big dumb fighters. Had the enemy brought a cleric with him with Remove Fear, that would have been easily handled.


So, in order to aid him, how would you counter said wizard? (fighter is easy, it's loads upon loads of spells (heck, polymorph other object into several things to bring his strength up to the point where a punch unproficient had a bonus of like 15 damage) so a simple dispell would do it.) it's kinda sad that I have to ask this considering circumstances (I like my rogue and ranger :smalleek: ) but I'd rather see the adventure continue then just restart due to him unable to contain a character or two.

Bring other enemies then 40 fighters, perhaps? And make fights more complex.

[Samalpetey]

It'd be a lot easier to help if we know his build. Odds are that he's doing something wrong, with DCs that high
Whoops, ignore that

Oh, and it could help if the DM gives future large groups of enemies a bard or two. Dragonfire inspiration makes sure that the soldiers stay dangerous individually after many get fear'd, and spellbreaker song could help a lot to limit him

Also, as Pickford and others alluded to, a wizard could be helpful. Hell, a red wizard+thayan knight style pair could be neat, with a targeteer fighter and an abjurer.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

What is your current party level, and how did he get his spell DCs that high? A DC of 28 is about where 6th+ level spells should be, assuming he made his Int score as high as possible, but if your party is below level 10 then it sounds like the DM needs to audit his character sheet. He may have feats from 3rd party d20 books, i.e. non-D&D books, that should only be allowed on a strict case-by-case basis.

The DM could use opponents who have special abilities that hinder what the PCs can do. I posted a few sample encounters here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=300111#7). He could also use many, many opponents who aren't really worth casting spells on, such as Tucker's Kobolds. I gave some suggestions here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=300111&page=2#48) on how to run them. Often the best solution is to just change tactics.

[Samalpetey]

What is your current party level, and how did he get his spell DCs that high? A DC of 28 is about where 6th+ level spells should be, assuming he made his Int score as high as possible, but if your party is below level 10 then it sounds like the DM needs to audit his character sheet.


I wasn't being exact when I said DC 28 saves, it's low 20's though, like 23 or 24.
I made that mistake too

[Ortesk]

First off your BSF is holding close to him constantly, so the meat shield is fine with the wizard there or he'd leave him to die (which is what would happen)so this seems to be the dm has issues making the fight and the party is fine withn the wizard. Easy enough, you want to fight a wizard dont cater to him. If you throw dumb mooks, your wizard will own the field. Has your dm tried running say 3 fights in one day of IGT? that leaves a wizard fairly scurrying for blowing his slots. Or throw a cleric in the mist, all of a sudden high will saves wont be an issue. Maybe cleric casts hold person on wizard because, well hes a little guy in robes. Enemies know what that means

[Souhiro]

How to tone him down? Easy:

First of all: Ask him. "You're monopolizing the game. Could you tone down?"

If he don't, then... heheh, LAY HIM A CURSE. Give him a cursed artifact that he cannot throw away easily (and he WON'T be able to throw away, ever) or put him a curse with a password (And the password is a word that you need 180 minutes to utter... keep in mind, those kind of words does exist (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titin#Linguistic_significance)!) something that makes his magic "Less Permeable" (I.E. he cannot use his INT bonus to set DCs)

He still would be able to attack people with fireballs, summon monsters, haste the party, or debuff. He still could be a wizard. But it wouldn't be THAT easy for him to monopolize the game!

[angry_bear]

Sounds like he's doing the most damage through mind influencing effects? Throw some Undead at the party, make sure they have good turn resistance so the cleric doesn't end the encounter too quickly and go to town.

[WesleyVos]

First, a well-played, decently-optimized wizard is not bad. It sounds like this guy is playing things properly, since he's not doing direct damage. But it also sounds like he's casting a lot of save-or-dies or save-or-stinks. Easy solution? Boost enemies' saves. Give them all Cloaks of Resistance. Give them the Iron Will/Great Fortitude/Lightning Reflexes feat (whichever the wizard targets most). Add a bard in with the enemies, or maybe a marshal - they have some decent save-boosting effects. Give them Potions of Conviction. You get the idea.

Second, have your DM throw a BBEG at you. They usually have better than normal saves, and Spell Resistance to boot. If they don't, give them SR. That lets the other classes appear to shine, even if they're only doing so because of the wizards' buffs. Still, it makes the other players feel good and feel that the contributed.

Third, as has been suggested, throw a wizard at the group. Actually, you could go the easy route of stealing his build and making his evil opposite. Heck, do a party of evil opposites, Linear-Guild style. It'd make for an interesting encounter. But even if he doesn't want to do that, he can always send a wizard protected by a few boosted mooks. That should do the trick.

I actually have to disagree with a lot of the posters here. I don't think asking him to tone it down is a good idea. He's playing the game, and his character, the way it is meant to be played. It doesn't sound like he's gone Tippyverse or Pun-Pun on you, so he's not breaking the game. I also don't think it's a good idea to intentionally nerf his character. The problem, I think, is less him than it is the encounters you've faced. I think, instead of talking to him, you might want to shoot a quick e-mail to your DM suggesting a couple of the changes suggested here. Battling lots of mooks can be fun, but not if it plays right to the wizard's strengths. See if he's willing to mix things up a bit.

Any way you go, good luck with it.

[jedipotter]

Buff up the world a bit. Even just core gives lots of ways to to this, you simply have to use them.

1.Better feats. Scrap whatever feats the monsters in the MM have, and avoid 'easy' ones like ''the warrior has weapon focus sword''. Give foes the +3 save feats. That can give them a much better change at a save. Your lowly 1st level fighter would then have a +4(at least) vs fear. Also look at things like skill bonus feats and movement feats. Having foes that can tumble, climb, jump or run out of the way can be effective.

2.Add a class level or two. Even just two levels in rogue can get a foe uncanny dodge. Two levels of fighter is two feats. And so on. Plus hp, bab and saves.

3.Equipment and magic items. There are tons of mundane things that can buff up a foe, just look through the books. Plus lots of magic items. It is easy to give out cheap magic items, like potions. And even a simple potion can make a foe better. Potions can increase their saves and give them resistance and more. And so can simple magic items.

4.More foes. Just have 15 thugs instead of 5. And use other foes. Avoid ''normal human thugs'' and make them half fey grimlocks.

5.Tatics. Have foes attack from cover. Have foes spread out. Have foes attack in waves. Have foes use hit and run attacks. And so on.

[TrollCapAmerica]

The DM should be aware of a Wizards capabilities and shouldnt be surprised that sending a bunch of BSFers at a guy with a high DC Fear spell will end with a horde of low will save BSFers running away wetting themselves

This doesnt mean you suddenly pack the world with undead or anti-"That guy over there" monsters either since that kind of solution has a tendency to leave the Wizard sitting around picking his nose for the next half hour long fight.It just means you should manage the battles you throw at the characters more carefully and try and throw a variety of challenges at them

[mindwarper10]

Improved trip and improved grapple...always works for me >_>

don't ask him to tone it down that's just mean to him...
Like someone else said it sounds more like an encounter problem than a character problem...
I mean the fighter took down 10 on his own right? so the wizard scared away 15...that's only 1.5x the amount the fighter KILLED...

[Thrair]

Here's my suggestions with dealing with a Munchkin wizard, in increasing order of severity. Starting with working with them, and ending with removal of the player.


1st off: Try to design a few encounters/situations that are tailored to the other players, in ways that the Wizard doesn't have the skillset to outshine them. Diplomacy heavy, Slight-of-hand smuggling runs, honorable fisticuff duels, etc. Things the Wizard can't really do, even with spells. This lets the other players have their moment to shine.

2nd: If they're still doing it, talk to them. Point out that they're hogging the glory with their optimizing and it's making things less fun for everyone else. Ask them to tone it down a little.

3rd: If they still persist, find "cheap" ways to neutralize them. Surprise round grapples against flat-footed AC. Boosted-DC Feeblemind. Steal their spellbooks. Get creative in crippling them to curb their power a bit.

4th: If, despite everything, they are still breaking the game to everyone else's detriment, and refuse to tone it down... Kill em. Coup de Grace their ass. Scry and fry him when their guard is down and they're away from the party. Either they get the message or they don't. Not your problem at this point. If they are ruining every else's fun, intentionally or through staggering selfishness, they brought it on themselves.

5th: All else fails, kick them from the gaming group. Better to remove an ******* determined to break the game than have them ruin it because they want to be the sole "hero" and turn the game into their self-insert power fantasy.

[icefractal]

The whole situation seems odd. While a Wizard can definitely overpower things, it's not usually by high-DCs at such a low level. What level is the party currently, and how is he getting the high DCs?

If he is really on SoD spells, especially area ones, then switching from a large mob of foes to a smaller group of more elite foes could put the balance more in tune. Equal level foes with good saves (outsiders, clerics, druids, monks, dragons, for instance) should be a lot less likely to fall from a single spell. Also, for most warrior types, their damage output is overkill against big swarms of mooks, and generally more effective against a few stronger foes.

[Captnq]

Rules for DMing powerful PCs:

1) ENFORCE THE RULES.

A big problem is often the DM for the sake of play hand waves things to "speed things up." He also lets PCs use 3rd party stuff without completely vetting the new material. He also lets PCs make characters without completely checking the rules. Case in point:

How the hell is a 3rd level wizard getting DC 28 on his spells?

2) SHOW THE PLAYERS YOU CAN DANCE.

You want to have an ultimate combo? You want to dumpster dive and found some really awesome rules to run roughshod over the game? Here's some rules for you DMs out there:

DMG pg 198


GAINING CLASS BENEFITS
You can mandate that to gain any of the newfound class-based benefits
earned by advancing a level, a character needs to perform
some overall training. This training requires one week per every
two levels, rounded up. Training requires a character to train with a
character of the same class who is higher in level and costs 1,000 gp
per week. If no such trainer can be found, the cost is the same, but
the time required is doubled. The money goes into fees, consultants,
material component experiments, and other miscellaneous
expenditures. Without the training, a character cannot acquire
more hit points, class features, saving throw and attack bonus
increases, spells per day, skill points, new spells, and so on.



That means that once you gain enough xp to advance to the next level, you can't do anything until you take off at least 1 week every two levels (if you can find a trainer) or 1 week/level. See that part where it says, "And So On" at the end? That could include xp. So I enforced this rule, you become STUCK until you take a few weeks off to advance in level. No more XP gains until you train. The rest of the party is pushing on? How is that MY problem, I'm the DM. Maybe you can cast charm person at DC 28 and convince them to take a month off your you to train.

Why don't I enforced this for fighters, you say? What training does a fighter need to do? He stabs people with pointy things. You need to learn arcane languages and bend reality with your mind. Much more time intensive. Thanks for your feedback. Please resubmit your complaint in ninety days for final disapproval.

How you like me now?

The Players seem to forget just how many rules the DMs let slide and every once in a while you need to enforce those rules so the players understand they aren't pulling the wool over your eyes. You are allowing them to have fun. They want to pull out obscure rules allowing them to do DC 28 spells at 3rd level? Fine. I can pull out obscure rules that will cripple your character advancement. I hope you are damn well HAPPY with third level, because that's as far as you are getting until the rest of the party allows you to take a month off to train.


Remember the Old DM Axiom:
A player's ears are in their back and they hear best when they are beaten.

[MeiLeTeng]

Remember the Old DM Axiom:
A player's ears are in their back and they hear best when they are beaten.

Points of view like that are half the reason people have problem characters today.

[Ansem]

Spell resistance, immunity to fear affects, DR against magic only, high touch AC

Plenty of ways to break the Wizard's power role and yet keep things at level for the rest.
Just plug the loopholes the Wizard uses to make everything so damn easy for him.

[icefractal]

I would definitely recommend against trying to balance the situation by trying to screw with the Wizard (unique training requirements, arbitrary spellbook targetting, random spell failure, every enemy is highly magic resistant, etc). The only that's going to do is piss the player off, make you look like an *******, and cause strife at the gaming table.

Most likely, the problem can be solved by tuning up your encounters a bit, as has also been recommended. Wizards are strong, but at 3rd level they're by no means unbeatable. In the case that this is impossible for some reason, then the thing to do is actually talk to the player and ask them to tone it back. But seriously, don't try to solve the problem by being a ****; that's where a lot of collapsing groups come from.

[thebladeofchaos]

So, I've told the DM the ideas from this thread and he's told me that he'll have a way to do it. (well, not exactly in those words but still) so here's hoping he listens and starts to enjoy it again.

it's kinda odd though....I mean in essence he's a DM who's found out a character is powerful in his campaign and he pretty much allowed, and is now figuring out that he didn't think it through. Oh well....here's hoping he listens and enjoys it again

[Oncoming Storm]

Sounds like the same player is playing both the fighter and wizard. that's a problem, as it counters a solid 50% of anti-wizard tactics without any help from the party. Solution? Anyone playing a full caster gets only one character.

[A Tad Insane]

The easiest way to limit a wizard is to simple interrupt his rest. Nightmare spell, random night encounter, even a punk bard could ruin a wizard's combat for a day.