Arcane=Spell Point, Divine=Vancian

[Xar Zarath]

Hi guys and gals. Recently I read a thread on the playground where another playgrounder mentioned that they used the Vancian system for divine classes only. And I thought it through and liked the idea. I mean, mechanics aside, fluff wise it dove tails with existing lore of clerics neatly:smallsmile:

However I was wondering whether anyone has ever played a game,dm'ed one, or saw anyone who played arcane casters with the spell point variant and the divine as vancian?

On another note, what do you guys/gals think of this?
Is it feasible?
Would you run arcane with spell point/psionic power point style and divine as vancian? Thoughts?

[Keneth]

I wouldn't. I would run spontaneous casters with spell points, and prepared casters with vancian.

[Der_DWSage]

...I hadn't thought about it, but yeah. I would be on board with this. It gives the two different sources of magic a very different feel, moreso than 'One heals, the other hurts.' Though if I were to nitpick, I could see a few different ways of doing it...

1:Spontaneous casters get spell points, prepared casters are Vancian. Or vice versa, but I feel that doesn't work as well.
2:Spell Point or Vancian are chosen at character creation, and you stick with it.
3:Divine Casters are spell point, but their 'domain spells' are vancian.


But if I were to pick from the original post, I'd still say you should reverse things. Wizards, at the very least, are infamous for being Vancian casters. Clerics have a higher power that can bend the rules on their behalf, allowing them to pump all their remaining power into a Heal spell, but Wizards have their spellbooks, and the fact that the spell literally wipes itself from their memory after being used.

Really, I'd stick with Wizards using Vancian. Maaaaybe Sorcerers, or let them have the choice. Clerics though, Clerics get their powers from a deity or a sheer belief in the power of some primal force, and should have the flexibility that entails.

[Xar Zarath]

Really, I'd stick with Wizards using Vancian. Maaaaybe Sorcerers, or let them have the choice. Clerics though, Clerics get their powers from a deity or a sheer belief in the power of some primal force, and should have the flexibility that entails.

I never quite been able to reconcile the wizard being vancian. Dont get me wrong, mechanics wise its a great way to limit the class from ruining the fun for everyone else.

However it makes sense for spellcasters especially sorcerer to be using the spell point variant. Wizards as well.

As for cleric well, they arent really true casters in a sense. They trade their eternal freedom to a higher being in exchange for power, which in fluff wise is no different than a warlock. And vancian does suit them better since their patron deity wont invest that much power into them, unless of course they are some Chosen or Exarch etc.

[Thiyr]

I'm reminded of my brief exposure to Hackmaster. Clerics work with the more traditional vancian casting, with the additional restriction of only being able to prep 1 of any given spell at a time barring corner cases (I think, didn't play one myself. I do remember that each god had a separate spell list, and some gods granted spells at random, which was the one way to get multiple copies of the same spell), while mages were this odd mish-mash of wiz and sorc. Spell points that could be spent on anything you had in your spellbook, but at double cost unless it was one of the spells you prepared for the day. Spells had to be augmented like psionics, but didn't have a level-based cap. Casting a spell did *not* un-prepare it.

It had a good feel, and given the stronger emphasis on the book's fluff the game had, it helped differentiate the two mechanically a bit more. The mage felt a bit nova-y, but that's easily solved. I'd think if you do it this way, though, you have to roll sorc and wiz together. Doesn't seem like it'd work out well otherwise.

[Maginomicon]

I should point out that whatever your choices, spell points do not have the full progressions for all casting classes in the SRD. Thus, I went to the trouble to calculate those progressions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15256702).

[TheIronGolem]

The reverse - Vancian arcane/Spellpoint divine - seems to make more sense to me.

I haven't actually read any Jack Vance, but if you read the first couple of Discworld books, Pratchett's description of how spells "live" in a wizard's brain waiting to be cast really jives with me, and is clearly inspired by the Vancian model. It just seems more in tune with the theme of wizards "programming" their minds with specific spells to fire off when the time is right. It's the more studied, "scientific" approach to magic that is typically associated with wizards.

Divine casters, on the other hand, are essentially conduits for a god to work their own magic in the mortal realm. And a god has unlimited power at its disposal (or at least unlimited from a mortal perspective), so it makes sense to me that they could just push whatever spells they need to at the moment through their conduit, subject only to the caster's ability to handle those spells. A spell-point system would represent the caster's capacity to withstand all that godly mojo coursing through them; the more spell points you have, the better you are at safely "drinking from the firehose", as it were.

[Epsilon Rose]

I think it's definitely an interesting idea to have different types of casters on different systems. However, rather than chime in on that front, I'd like to make a slightly tangential suggestion. Rather than using spell points, use this mana system (http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Mana-Based_Spellcasting_%283.5e_Variant_Rule%29).

It functions by decreasing the cost of spellshaping as mages level, rather than simply giving upper level mages a stupid number of points. In theory, this should have three benefits: it should be more balanced; it differentiates them from psionic classes that already use points, and it alleviates the 15 minute work day because points can be regained gradually and interrupted sleep doesn't mean you're completely useless.

For bonus points, pick a third group of casters and give them cool down based casting.

[Maginomicon]

Personally, I essentially rewrote whole swaths of the spell points system and vitalizing subsystem to make it more fair, unambiguous, and unbroken (not "fixed", unbroken, there's a difference).

The most notable change was the implementation of "Spell Point Burn", a stat similar to non-lethal damage that as it goes up also layers on ability burn (a vastly underused mechanic by-the-way). Spell point recovery methods such as "Mana Restoration" spells incorporate a "Burn Cost" because the very nature of manipulating raw mana damages your own magical potential.

Another major change is that I make spellcasters intrinsically vulnerable to fatigue and exhaustion. That is, no creature type, subtype, racial trait, class feature, spell, equipment, or other immunity effect of any sort to fatigue or exhaustion functions for you if you're a spellcaster. Further, fatigue and exhaustion cause you to drop to the associated fraction of spell points. This exists because the vitalizing variant would be broken otherwise. It also makes sense logically and thematically anyway.

The full details of my spell points system rewrite go on for pages and pages in my campaign setting document, so if anyone wants to dig into how I did it, please PM me.