[PF] Buckets of Damage?

[magotter]

Hey guys.

I've been wondering something lately: which classes can do the most damage in combat. Specifically, at level 1, 10, and 20 who's got the highest output?

My first instinct is something to the effect of a dervish dancing magus with Piranha Strike, Arcane Strike, TWF, and Racial natural weapons (tiefling, lizardfolk, etc) who uses the standard Shocking Grasp techniques.

Still, this only becomes fully potent at level 10, and I'm not confident it has staying power beyond that.

Is my instinct wrong? are their builds that can obliterate foes even harder? Ideally I'm just curious about builds. Mentioning elemental damage on a weapon is good and all, but unless we're talking a build-critical item (like Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists or such) I'm less concerned about it than feat selection.


Disclaimer:
yes, I am entirely aware dealing damage is a completely suboptimal combat strategy for a vast number of fighting scenarios. This is mostly a mental exercise; Reverse Limbo, if you will. As in, how high can the bar be raised?

[Keneth]

I'd say barbarian, barbarian, and barbarian on an average scale. Other classes may situationally deal more damage in a single round.

[Psyren]

My first instinct is something to the effect of a dervish dancing magus with Piranha Strike, Arcane Strike, TWF, and Racial natural weapons (tiefling, lizardfolk, etc) who uses the standard Shocking Grasp techniques.

Dervish Dance requires a scimitar which won't work with Piranha Strike (it's not a light weapon.) And TWF is unnecessary on a Magus, that's what Spell Combat/Spellstrike are for.

[grarrrg]

This build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245496) will probably suit your level 10 or 20 needs. It doesn't reach true ridiculousness until level 13, but it's more than adequate at 10.

It can't do much of anything at level 1 though...

[Hamste]

Barbarians can do pretty good damage at level 1.

[Kevka Palazzo]

I would actually assume Fighters would be the big damage dealers at level 1. Barbs can rage, sure, but Fighters get that extra combat feat to play with, so if they're going 2-handed with a d12 weapon, have 20 Strength, Power Attack, and two more feats (assuming you're a human, too) sounds potentially better even than the barb.

[Twilightwyrm]

This build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245496) will probably suit your level 10 or 20 needs. It doesn't reach true ridiculousness until level 13, but it's more than adequate at 10.

It can't do much of anything at level 1 though...

I must ask, how many slams is that build getting, and how much the Str bonus on those slams is? Because that is only 58 damage (w/o Str), on average, per slam. I realize that 58 (again, w/o Str) is pretty good for a single attack, but if that is the only attack you are getting, you are going to be seriously outclasses by your average, not particularly combat focuses rogue.

[Crustypeanut]

I must ask, how many slams is that build getting, and how much the Str bonus on those slams is? Because that is only 58 damage (w/o Str), on average, per slam. I realize that 58 (again, w/o Str) is pretty good for a single attack, but if that is the only attack you are getting, you are going to be seriously outclasses by your average, not particularly combat focuses rogue.

Strength would at least be 39, possibly higher (16 base +5 Level +2 Attribute Bonus +16 Size)

So thats a.. +14 strength bonus?

[CTrees]

I wouldn't count out a Mystic Theurge, if going for high level, single round damage. Spell Synthesis and a greater metamagic wand of quicken will let you push out three high level spells in a round, which can add up, especially with a dash of trait abuse and perhaps early entry shenanigans (now that having SLAs will allow it).

[NightbringerGGZ]

A mounted build using a lance can get some pretty crazy numbers. I have a fun Cavalier build that uses archetypes to pick up Mounted Combat, Ride-by-Attack and Spirited Charge right at first level to gain a x3 bonus to damage on a charge. Assuming 18 strength, 3d8 + 12 damage is pretty fun at level 1.

[Kudaku]

What would you define as buckets of damage...?

Highest damage with a single attack?
Highest attack with a single full round action?
Highest damage in an encounter?
Highest damage in a typical adventuring day?


The answer will most likely vary depending on what your definition is.

[grarrrg]

I must ask, how many slams is that build getting, and how much the Str bonus on those slams is? Because that is only 58 damage (w/o Str), on average, per slam. I realize that 58 (again, w/o Str) is pretty good for a single attack, but if that is the only attack you are getting, you are going to be seriously outclasses by your average, not particularly combat focuses rogue.

:smallsigh: Good job on not reading the whole thread, nor realizing that Eidolons can have more than 1 attack...

doko239 had a fully stated level 13 build, which could do:
Attacks: 2x Slam (12d10 + 26) plus Bite (12d8 + 39) OR
2x Power Attack Slam (12d10 + 32) plus Bite (12d8 + 48)
277 w/o Power Attack
298 w/Power Attack

Dropping this down to only level 10 would decrease the damage by quite a bit, as you'd lose out on the Large>Huge Size and STR increase, BUT you'd actually gain back a few Evo points, so you could potentially add a 4th (or even 5th) attack to help make up for lost damage.

Also, at the time original thread the Wild Caller archetype hadn't come out yet, adding that in would be another 1/4 Evo per level.

A level 20 version could have 7 attacks, 6 are Slams for 12d10+STR each, 1 is a Bite with 12d8+1.5*STR.
Base STR could easily be 50 for a +20 Mod.
600 no Power Attack
660 w/Power Attack

Keep in mind, these numbers are factoring in no Equipment, and only two buff spells (Enlarge Person, and Strong Jaw).
Throwing on an Amulet of Mighty Fists, and something with a better Enhancement bonus to STR would be a good start.

There are also various Gunslinger builds that can get over 400 damage a round (one of them being the Gundolon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12152413#post12152413))

[TiaC]

1st level magus with the right traits can get 35 average damage on a spellstrike.

[Rentaromon]

Aegis at lvl 1 can deal 3d6+15 with a +7 to hit, without any spells or limits per day.

[ArqArturo]

Well, the Two-Handed Weapon Fighter archetype is pretty impressive, even at low levels. Combine that with a barbarian and you have a monster of damage (equip with Falchion for extra damage).

Cavaliers can also do ridiculous amounts of damage while mounted, declare an enemy with your oath and charge away. Also, I would use the lance with two hands to get the benefit of the weapon instead of the classic shield and lance.

[grarrrg]

Regarding level 1 builds (and the lack thereof)...
There are a few races that can start with a Bite and 2 Claw attacks.
Possibly go Barbarian for the Bab and extra STR boost.
Possibly go White Haired Witch to add a Hair attack.
Possibly take Multiattack feat, and use a Dwarven Boulder Helm (Heirloom Weapon trait for proficiency).
Hmmm....


Well, the Two-Handed Weapon Fighter archetype is pretty impressive, even at low levels. Combine that with a barbarian and you have a monster of damage (equip with Falchion for extra damage).

Let's see...
Level 3 gets Double STR damage if you make a single attack.
Level 7 is Double STR damage on all attacks EXCEPT the first.
Level 15 is Double Power Attack damage.
Level 20 is the standard Fighter 20 bonus of Auto-confirming Crits, and +1 on the Crit Multiplier.

That brings up a good point, what's a good way to calculate Critical damage into this?
Do we just 'assume' that all attacks are going to Critical since we're going for the "best round EVAR!!!" anyway?
Or do we calculate a rough average chance of getting a critical and add it to the average damage?

[StreamOfTheSky]

Probably at level 10 (shame you specified that; level 11 is the bonanza level) and DEFINITELY at level 20, Pistolero gunslinger is the king of damage per round. Pending the current nerf/sorta-errata/wtf-is-going-on? FAQ situation w/ free actions paizo's currently mired in. TWF and Rapid Shot, hitting touch AC *and* applying Deadly Aim, along with dex to damage and a x4 crit. Oh, and thanks to signature deed, you're doing fistfuls of more dice of damage each shot, too.

At level 1? Probably a mounted lance charger. Probably Fighter, in order to actually have all the feats.

If your DM is wise and bans guns, my upper level pick would probably be mounted lance pouncing charge build, probably Barbarian. Yes, even with the ruling that you only get the damage multiplier on the first attack; you're still doing x3 or more damage and then...a bunch more attacks. A Barbarian utilizing Come and Get Me and enemies stupid enough to keep melee attacking him can also do pretty well.

[Ravens_cry]

This requires some set up, but it can kill what it hits.
Small Angelkin Aasimar Paladin of Vengeance 10
(Extra smite for two lay on hands is a sweet deal)
1st Mounted Combat 3rd Ride By Attack 5th Spirited Charge 7th Power Attack 9th Furious Focus
Traits: Fate's Favoured (+1 on top of any luck bonus) Magical Knack (+2 to CL as long as it doesn't put your CL over your HD)
24 Strength (18 base, +2 from levelling, +4 item
+2 Keen lance, two handed.
Spells- Divine Favour, Saddle Surge, Litany of Righteousness
4+2+10+9(max)+10+d6 +35 x4 =140 + 4d6 (average total of 154)
If I am lucky enough to crit on a Litany strike, that's x6 if I am doing my D&D math right. So that's 210+6d6. Average total is 231.
At level 10. I'd say almost anything level appropriate will die.
Oh, and my mount gets an attack, and the Saddle Surge adds to its damage as well.
One more level and it gets to smite too.
This keeps growing too, though I am not working out the math for level 20. I've only being in one campaign that went there and that was for one fight.
A build that only pops at 20 is no build at all.
Maybe not the biggest damage here, but all basically RAW *and* RAI as near as I can figure.

[magotter]

What would you define as buckets of damage...?
Highest damage with a single attack?
Highest attack with a single full round action?
Highest damage in an encounter?
Highest damage in a typical adventuring day?
The answer will most likely vary depending on what your definition is.

Fool on me, yeah. I should have specified consistent damage. It's fine and all to get 600 dpr for a single round and obliterate a BBEG, but it's been my experience with various groups that there's about 10-15 rounds of combat a day (4-5 rounds over 3 fights on average).




This build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245496) will probably suit your level 10 or 20 needs. It doesn't reach true ridiculousness until level 13, but it's more than adequate at 10.

It can't do much of anything at level 1 though...

Definitely gonna try that next time I roll a summoner, just to make my DM cry.




Dervish Dance requires a scimitar which won't work with Piranha Strike (it's not a light weapon.) And TWF is unnecessary on a Magus, that's what Spell Combat/Spellstrike are for.

That's really pesky. That said, d'you think it's still worth it to take Dervish Dance and be MAD enough to get Power Attack, or would you just invest in the Craft Magic Weapons feat and make your own Agile Rapiers? (on the assumption that gear, more than anything else, can be held at length by DMs)




I wouldn't count out a Mystic Theurge, if going for high level, single round damage. Spell Synthesis and a greater metamagic wand of quicken will let you push out three high level spells in a round, which can add up, especially with a dash of trait abuse and perhaps early entry shenanigans (now that having SLAs will allow it).

I'm actually noticing a distinct lack of spell recommendation. While useless at low levels, I'd like to think that Magical Lineage and Intensified Spell might pair well with Fireball, Lightning Bolt, et al. I mean, 20d6 ain't terribad for a mage, right?

[Psyren]

That's really pesky. That said, d'you think it's still worth it to take Dervish Dance and be MAD enough to get Power Attack, or would you just invest in the Craft Magic Weapons feat and make your own Agile Rapiers? (on the assumption that gear, more than anything else, can be held at length by DMs)

If you can get an Agile Rapier pretty early on then go for it. Otherwise I would stick with the Scimitar and DD. But either way I would skip PA, it doesn't add enough damage to be worth making myself MAD and blowing a feat for, especially with the scimitar held in one hand; you can't 2-hand it and use spell combat at the same time.

[magotter]

If you can get an Agile Rapier pretty early on then go for it. Otherwise I would stick with the Scimitar and DD. But either way I would skip PA, it doesn't add enough damage to be worth making myself MAD and blowing a feat for, especially with the scimitar held in one hand; you can't 2-hand it and use spell combat at the same time.

Isn't dropping a hand from a weapon a free action? Does that interfere with holding a spell charge? Less relevant if I make my own Agile Rapier in order to guarantee dex to damage.

[Kudaku]

Spellstrike and THFing work fine, Spell Combat is a full-round action that requires you to have a one-handed weapon in one hand and nothing in the other. To the best of my knowledge you can't THF with Spell Combat barring some extremely questionable options.

[ArqArturo]

Not exactly 'OMG OP!', but... Half-Orc Sorcerer (favored class: 1/2+ to fire spell damage) with elemental bloodline, and Elemental Spell (Fire).

And yes, I'm well aware that lots of things are immune/resistant towards fire, but the rest... They better run (http://youtu.be/WUhOnX8qt3I).

[Firechanter]

I'd really like to know who can get the higher damage output, just between Fighter and Barbarian.

For Fighter, bear in mind the no-brainer item, Gloves of Dueling, which is an extra free +2/+2 that stacks with Weapon Training. So a level 13 Fighter gets +5 to all attack and damage rolls, which easily exceeds the benefit from Greater Rage.
Barbie, on the other hand, has more interesting tack-on effects, i.e. Rage Powerz. Robilar's Gambit Come and Get Me certainly being a top contender here. The sweet thing here is that your AoO is resolved _before_ the attack, so if your output is high enough, you can keep oneshotting stuff without ever getting actually hit in melee.

[3WhiteFox3]

I'd really like to know who can get the higher damage output, just between Fighter and Barbarian.

For Fighter, bear in mind the no-brainer item, Gloves of Dueling, which is an extra free +2/+2 that stacks with Weapon Training. So a level 13 Fighter gets +5 to all attack and damage rolls, which easily exceeds the benefit from Greater Rage.
Barbie, on the other hand, has more interesting tack-on effects, i.e. Rage Powerz. Robilar's Gambit Come and Get Me certainly being a top contender here. The sweet thing here is that your AoO is resolved _before_ the attack, so if your output is high enough, you can keep oneshotting stuff without ever getting actually hit in melee.

To be fair to the Barbarian, Furious is an excellent weapon special ability. It is an effective +2 to attack and damage (as well as making the weapon count as 2 higher enhancement bonus for ignoring damage reduction) at the low cost of a +1 weapon enhancement.

Generally, I'd put pure the Barbarian as the better damage dealer. Rage + Rage Powers is pretty nice.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Fighter has much better to hit and better damage* per swing. And at level 20, fighter is critical hitting on 30% of all his attacks (auto confirm + keen or imp. crit on an 18-20 weapon), which is a pretty big DPR boost, too.

But between pounce and Come and Get Me, Barbarian's going to win the DPR race just for having more dakka. Of course, in a sterling example of why optimizing for damage output is subpar, the CaGM Barbarian actually is much MORE deadly when he combines it with Dazing Assault, to just plain rob foes of their turns completely. While ending their turns before they truly began may mean they don't attack, though, it also means they don't attack. Which means less CaGM pre-emptive strikes, which means DPR plummets. But...I know which option *I* would prefer...

*Against casters, Barbarian does equal or more damage per swing than the Fighter, thanks to Witch Hunter.