Are Core Conjuration and TransmutationT1 or T2?

[wayfare]

Hey All:

Just Wondering, if you took the wizard chassis and gave it access only to Core Transmutation or Conjuration spells, would either class be T1 or T2?

Hows about if you axed the following:

Rope Trick (or any other spell thAt creates a safe place in a dangeroup spot)

Alter Self (or any other spell that lets you assume the entire form of a creature -- spells that alter parts of your body are ok, like granting you claws, wings, or whatnot)

Thanks for the help, guys!

[thethird]

They are schools of spells...

Anyways the difference between T2 and T1 is versatility and adaptability, so the wizard (class) would still be tier 1 because it can still change its spells every day.

[Pickford]

They are schools of spells...

Anyways the difference between T2 and T1 is versatility and adaptability, so the wizard (class) would still be tier 1 because it can still change its spells every day.

Yeah, but he's saying what if you axed the spells that are versatile. Presumably Tier 5.

[Lactantius]

The terms "Tier 1, Tier 2" etc. are not even real game-terms. They are terms invented by some guys comparing all published 3.5E books, filtering, synergizing, optimizing.

The term itself is deceptive. It implies that each time we take about character options, all books, all rules, all combos are available.
Therefore, I repeat my thesis that character guides, handbooks and all those MinMax stuff fail just because of this sole, one reason: the absence of a universal D&D-rule.

So, if you ask about core only rules, you don't include Tiers. Tiers are made for CRPGs, MMORPGs and that stuff.
In core only, conjuration spells are as good as transmutation spells as good as abjurations, necromancy, illusions etc.
The absence of a multitude of ACFs, bad designed rules which favor one magic school more than others and the straightforward content of available feats, classes, weapons and spells lead to an equilibrium within the rule system.

Frankly, the more rules and options you add, the more complicated, tricky, dirty and ridiculous D&D can get.

To get to your examples:
core only, a rope trick spell is less problematic. You won't be a focused conjurer, so you will have less spells per day. So, you will think twice or even thrice if you deplete one 2nd level spell slot for a nice accommodation.

Plus (but that's a pretty soft rule), there are some issues with daily uses of a rope trick:
- extradimensional spaces withing extradimensional spaces can cause a magic havoc effect, like an astral rift. There are many references for such an effect, leading back to A&D (maybe even 1st Edition).
- obscure magic: in my gaming experience, not all party members are happy to go with the wizard into some mystical, mini-demi-plane-alike tent where they haven zero control and the wizard full control. Character perspetives trump core rules more often than you think.
- adventuring mages and their curiosity: sometimes, you just want to rest within a normal camp with campfire, tents and stuff. The keyword is immersion. The less the player dictates the evolving game process, the more narrative and sandboxed gameplay will evolve.
Generally, this is an issue in many cases when the wizard player tries to be too much a control freak. Sometimes, it is better to let the game flow. It results in a good dynamic and evolution.

Got my point?

Categorize less, optimize less, don't pick all hidden rules, spells, combos, feats less.
Just let it go.
In game terms, it's a mix of Rule 0 and roleplay immersion (at least if you play more a roleplaying game and less a boardgame).

[wayfare]

The terms "Tier 1, Tier 2" etc. are not even real game-terms. They are terms invented by some guys comparing all published 3.5E books, filtering, synergizing, optimizing.

The term itself is deceptive. It implies that each time we take about character options, all books, all rules, all combos are available.
Therefore, I repeat my thesis that character guides, handbooks and all those MinMax stuff fail just because of this sole, one reason: the absence of a universal D&D-rule.

So, if you ask about core only rules, you don't include Tiers. Tiers are made for CRPGs, MMORPGs and that stuff.
In core only, conjuration spells are as good as transmutation spells as good as abjurations, necromancy, illusions etc.
The absence of a multitude of ACFs, bad designed rules which favor one magic school more than others and the straightforward content of available feats, classes, weapons and spells lead to an equilibrium within the rule system.

Frankly, the more rules and options you add, the more complicated, tricky, dirty and ridiculous D&D can get.

To get to your examples:
core only, a rope trick spell is less problematic. You won't be a focused conjurer, so you will have less spells per day. So, you will think twice or even thrice if you deplete one 2nd level spell slot for a nice accommodation.

Plus (but that's a pretty soft rule), there are some issues with daily uses of a rope trick:
- extradimensional spaces withing extradimensional spaces can cause a magic havoc effect, like an astral rift. There are many references for such an effect, leading back to A&D (maybe even 1st Edition).
- obscure magic: in my gaming experience, not all party members are happy to go with the wizard into some mystical, mini-demi-plane-alike tent where they haven zero control and the wizard full control. Character perspetives trump core rules more often than you think.
- adventuring mages and their curiosity: sometimes, you just want to rest within a normal camp with campfire, tents and stuff. The keyword is immersion. The less the player dictates the evolving game process, the more narrative and sandboxed gameplay will evolve.
Generally, this is an issue in many cases when the wizard player tries to be too much a control freak. Sometimes, it is better to let the game flow. It results in a good dynamic and evolution.

Got my point?

Categorize less, optimize less, don't pick all hidden rules, spells, combos, feats less.
Just let it go.
In game terms, it's a mix of Rule 0 and roleplay immersion (at least if you play more a roleplaying game and less a boardgame).

Not really. Put a Druid and a Fighter in the same party, even a druid that is very low op, and you will notice the difference. By a lot. Really, really a lot. This is with no malice -- I am like the king of fighter advocacy. But facts is facts.

[Story]

Also, Enchantment is still the worst in core-only.

[wayfare]

Also, Enchantment is still the worst in core-only.

See, It always seemed that way to me too, but yet the Beguiler is still rated at T3...Never understood that.

[Pickford]

Also, Enchantment is still the worst in core-only.

Worst at?

You can't be the worst at everything. No other school is as good at enchantment as social manipulation (or for that matter capable of it)

[ryu]

See, It always seemed that way to me too, but yet the Beguiler is still rated at T3...Never understood that.

Worst at magic doesn't equate worst at game. Magic is just that good man.

Also Picky that's absolutely adorable, but do we need to bring out the list of transmutations that social manipulate more consistently than all of enchantment AGAIN?

[Pickford]

Worst at magic doesn't equate worst at game. Magic is just that good man.

Also Picky that's absolutely adorable, but do we need to bring out the list of transmutations that social manipulate more consistently than all of enchantment AGAIN?

You did it a first time? I must have missed that.

[Karnith]

See, It always seemed that way to me too, but yet the Beguiler is still rated at T3...Never understood that.
Beguilers also get a lot of Illusion spells, and some good-to-great spells from other schools (e.g. Glitterdust, Dispel Magic, Glibness, Haste, Slow, Freedom of Movement, Solid Fog, etc.).

[wayfare]

Worst at magic doesn't equate worst at game. Magic is just that good man.

Also Picky that's absolutely adorable, but do we need to bring out the list of transmutations that social manipulate more consistently than all of enchantment AGAIN?

I see whats happening. I mean worst as in "biggest pain in the behind, what with typically low-access to stuff that thwarts mind control in most settings". I see enchantment as very solid, just not as directly useful -- you have to dominate the right thing or charm the right person, adding steps others can just teleport past.

Anyhoo, would a Pure Conjurer or Pure Transmuter class be as low as T3?

[ahenobarbi]

The terms "Tier 1, Tier 2" etc. are not even real game-terms. They are terms invented by some guys comparing all published 3.5E books, filtering, synergizing, optimizing.

The term itself is deceptive. It implies that each time we take about character options, all books, all rules, all combos are available.
Therefore, I repeat my thesis that character guides, handbooks and all those MinMax stuff fail just because of this sole, one reason: the absence of a universal D&D-rule.

So, if you ask about core only rules, you don't include Tiers. Tiers are made for CRPGs, MMORPGs and that stuff.
In core only, conjuration spells are as good as transmutation spells as good as abjurations, necromancy, illusions etc.
The absence of a multitude of ACFs, bad designed rules which favor one magic school more than others and the straightforward content of available feats, classes, weapons and spells lead to an equilibrium within the rule system..

1) You're wrong. Tiers are almost the same in core as in all-1st-arty-books (IIRC only difference would e Fighter going down a tier).

2) Differences between schools of magic are pretty much the same (Evocation / Illusion gets a bit more important because no Craft Contingent Spell and Orbs, Enchantment looses some options but ).

3) Weaker classes get proportionally more from adding books than stronger.



To get to your examples:
core only, a rope trick spell is less problematic. You won't be a focused conjurer, so you will have less spells per day. So, you will think twice or even thrice if you deplete one 2nd level spell slot for a nice accommodation.

You probably don't want to do it at level 3 (although it still might be a good idea). You probably don't care much about 2nd level slot a level 20.



Plus (but that's a pretty soft rule), there are some issues with daily uses of a rope trick:
- extradimensional spaces withing extradimensional spaces can cause a magic havoc effect, like an astral rift. There are many references for such an effect, leading back to A&D (maybe even 1st Edition).
- obscure magic: in my gaming experience, not all party members are happy to go with the wizard into some mystical, mini-demi-plane-alike tent where they haven zero control and the wizard full control. Character perspetives trump core rules more often than you think.
- adventuring mages and their curiosity: sometimes, you just want to rest within a normal camp with campfire, tents and stuff. The keyword is immersion. The less the player dictates the evolving game process, the more narrative and sandboxed gameplay will evolve.
Generally, this is an issue in many cases when the wizard player tries to be too much a control freak. Sometimes, it is better to let the game flow. It results in a good dynamic and evolution.

Got my point?


How this is any different in core? Also it's not a very troublesome spell.

Besides: why can't you have a fire inside safe place? What kind of control does wizard have in the rope trick? Why can't wizard sleep in the rope trick with those who are willing to and let others sleep outside?



Categorize less, optimize less, don't pick all hidden rules, spells, combos, feats less.

Thank you for telling us how to play. Now if you'd step aside and let me play the way I like...

[ryu]

I see whats happening. I mean worst as in "biggest pain in the behind, what with typically low-access to stuff that thwarts mind control in most settings". I see enchantment as very solid, just not as directly useful -- you have to dominate the right thing or charm the right person, adding steps others can just teleport past.

Anyhoo, would a Pure Conjurer or Pure Transmuter class be as low as T3?

Not even remotely. They're easily tier 2 while not even trying, and still tier 1 if they get into the good summon effects.

Picky: Alter self, Glibness, and out of core voice of the dragon take care of social situations rather handily. Notice how those also don't come with will saves?

[Gnaeus]

Beguilers also get a lot of Illusion spells, and some good spells from other schools (e.g. Glitterdust, Dispel Magic, Glibness, Haste, Slow, Freedom of Movement, Solid Fog, etc.).

And on a quite decent chassis as well. It would be top tier 5/bottom tier 4 without any spells. It is basically an expert that trades a more limited (but still excellent) skill list for Trapfinding and free improved feint. And then gets full spont casting from roughly 2 schools.

[wayfare]

Not even remotely. They're easily tier 2 while not even trying, and still tier 1 if they get into the good summon effects.

Picky: Alter self, Glibness, and out of core voice of the dragon take care of social situations rather handily. Notice how those also don't come with will saves?

Very true, but thats almost overkill. Its not like anybody is gonna be able to make your saves if you put even a wee bit of effort in fortifying them.

Sorry, one thing is unclear (to me) are you saying that the core Conjuration spell list is T1? What if you axe the Planar Ally and Gate spells?

How about Transumtation, is that spell list versatile enough to be T1?

[ryu]

Very true, but thats almost overkill. Its not like anybody is gonna be able to make your saves if you put even a wee bit of effort in fortifying them.

Sorry, one thing is unclear (to me) are you saying that the core Conjuration spell list is T1? What if you axe the Planar Ally and Gate spells?

How about Transumtation, is that spell list versatile enough to be T1?

Does the conjurer still get planar binding? If so still yes with enough work.

Transmutation is pretty much the only school that can openly compete with conjuration like an equal. If that doesn't tell you what it can do alone I've no idea what to tell you.

Also wayfare that was proving a point. Enchantment isn't the best at the ONE THING it's supposed to be kinda decent with. This is why it is the worst of the schools.

[Gnaeus]

Very true, but thats almost overkill. Its not like anybody is gonna be able to make your saves if you put even a wee bit of effort in fortifying them.


Arguable. Some monsters can have quite good saves. But more to the point, Glibness, Alter Self, and Voice of the Dragon are not subject to SR, you can't block them with protection from evil, or even mind blank or other immunity to mind affecting. As a level 3 10 minute/level spell, a bard could cast glibness with a lesser extend rod and walk through the dungeon wrecking any encounter he can talk to for hours.

[wayfare]

Does the conjurer still get planar binding? If so still yes with enough work.

Transmutation is pretty much the only school that can openly compete with conjuration like an equal. If that doesn't tell you what it can do alone I've no idea what to tell you.

Also wayfare that was proving a point. Enchantment isn't the best at the ONE THING it's supposed to be kinda decent with. This is why it is the worst of the schools.

Without Planar Binding, how would you feel about it? Basically, Summon monster plus the teleportation stuff and teh random utility junk that doesnt summon monsters.

[ryu]

Without Planar Binding, how would you feel about it? Basically, Summon monster plus the teleportation stuff and teh random utility junk that doesnt summon monsters.

Still high tier two with some basic work in my opinion. I mean good gods man conjuration has the ability to create personal demiplanes, more consistent blasting than evocation resulting in the mailman, the ability to instantly run from any fight not being won, and while summon monster is no planar binding it still allows you to get somewhat decent meatshields.

[Der_DWSage]

Indeed. Having nothing but Transmutation...well, look at the Druid and how much sheer power he gets from Wild Shape alone. Also, Disintegrate, the various buff spells, Alter Self...

It's not as simple as 'cut out this school' or 'cut out that school.' You have to examine each and every spell that gives you too much choice with a single spell with no drawbacks, and look at how to cut back on it.

Planar Ally is a huge example of 'Too much for what it gives.' A temporary party member, usually a spellcaster in their own right, and lasts for days if necessary.

The various Summon Monster spells? Potentially too much. A Unicorn, after all, can do far more healing with the level 4 slot it occupies than even an optimized-for-healing Cleric could do with the same slot.

It really boils down to the fact that spellcasting is really broad, and power creep sunk in. You'd have to basically present a cut-down list of spells, rather than just say 'Okay, how about nothing but Transmutation? But without Shapechange or Alter Self?'

I think a better question here is 'what are you trying to accomplish by cutting down the Wizard to those two schools alone?' Pure thought experiment, cutting down on a problem player's power, or getting fuel for a homebrew class? Give us more to work with here, and we might offer more in return.

[Flickerdart]

Without Planar Binding, how would you feel about it? Basically, Summon monster plus the teleportation stuff and teh random utility junk that doesnt summon monsters.
Conjuration is, bar none, the best battlefield control school. It's also the best at blasting (Orbs!), great at mobility (Phantom Steed and teleportation make up for losing Fly), has some very good buffs (Greater Luminous Armor, for instance), breaks economies (Wall of Iron, Fabricate), has Genesis and Gate.

[wayfare]

You know the Dread Necromancer, Warmage, Beguiler?

I'm looking to make Alteration and Conjuration focused versions of those classes.
I've done so with Divination and it plays AWESOME. Just trying to hit all the schools.

[ryu]

Conjuration is, bar none, the best battlefield control school. It's also the best at blasting (Orbs!), great at mobility (Phantom Steed and teleportation make up for losing Fly), has some very good buffs (Greater Luminous Armor, for instance), breaks economies (Wall of Iron, Fabricate), has Genesis and Gate.

To be fair he already said no gate. I admit it's not much, but he didn't miss ALL of what conjuration is just by existing.

[wayfare]

Conjuration is, bar none, the best battlefield control school. It's also the best at blasting (Orbs!), great at mobility (Phantom Steed and teleportation make up for losing Fly), has some very good buffs (Greater Luminous Armor, for instance), breaks economies (Wall of Iron, Fabricate), has Genesis and Gate.

Well, I also said core only :smallbiggrin:

Not worried about breaking the economy, the world wont last that long anyway

[Flickerdart]

Well, I also said core only :smallbiggrin:
Most of those are Core.

[JaronK]

Does the conjurer still get planar binding? If so still yes with enough work.

Well, without Magic Circle, they can't bind the things properly. So there's that.

JaronK

[Gnaeus]

and while summon monster is no planar binding it still allows you to get somewhat decent meatshields.

True, but not complete. Just look at Summon monster 7-9. You can mimic charm person, cure light wounds, identify, sleep; hold person, invisibility, sound burst. protection from chaos, wind wall; 2nd—cure moderate wounds, eagle’s splendor, scorching ray, silence; 3rd—gaseous form, magic circle against evil, summon monster III; 4th— charm monster, freedom of movement. fireball (DC 15), hold monster (DC 17), wall of force; cure critical wounds (DC 16), neutralize poison, remove disease; heal, etherealness, chaos hammer (DC 18), unholy blight (DC 18); blasphemy, major image (DC 17), scorching ray (2 rays only). order’s wrath, create food and water, create wine (as create water, but wine instead), major creation (created vegetable matter is permanent), persistent image (DC 17), wind walk. dimension door, dispel magic, gust of wind (DC 15), light, magic circle against evil (self only), magic missile, see invisibility; Lightning bolt, darkness, see invisibility.heroism. telekinesis. (And you can duplicate bard song)

That would be a solid T3 list just from Summon monster VII-IX. It can buff, Debuff, Blast, Cure, battlefield control, create illusions, break WBL (Lets create permanent spices or wine for sale!!!), spam dispel magic at hostile effects, and assist travel. If ALL you got was the Summon monster list, you might not break T2, but you might. There is some good stuff there.

Sorry for the ugly text. Copypasting from lots of monster stat blocks.

[ryu]

Well, without Magic Circle, they can't bind the things properly. So there's that.

JaronK

That would just mean putting side work into optimizing the Cha check. It's not like there's much of a reason to keep our liking of the dex stat without ray spells after all.

[StreamOfTheSky]

See, It always seemed that way to me too, but yet the Beguiler is still rated at T3...Never understood that.

There's nothing to understand. It's incorrect. By the very definitions of what tiers are. Don't strain your head thinking about it too hard. Or taking the specific tiers themselves too seriously. Any full caster, aside from blatantly horrible exceptions like Warmage and Healer (and they can still be optimized to play like actual GOD casters if you try), is completely unbalanced and out of whack with non-casters. Being in "tier 2" instead of "tier 1" doesn't magically make the problem any better.

[Eldariel]

Transmutation is...well, Tier 1 when you hit Shapechange for sure but before then, it's a tough call. It's versatile to the extreme, but lacks a punch early on (first level spells only offer utility and ways to buff allies).

Pyrotechnics comes level 2 and Slow level 3 to offer reliable, but one-dimensional Will-targeting offense. I suppose you can cast Reduce Person or Enlarge Person offensively at some enemies but that's not hugely efficient except maybe against a tripper/grappler/whatever. They have the cast time problem too. Alter Self is a superb self-buff level 2 but outside Gishes you're still talking about a purely defensive and utility option (albeit good utility). You also get more buffs.

Level 3 has even more buffs (you probably won't be casting most of these outside Haste very often, to be honest; Keen Edge and Greater Magic Weapon tend to come on their own around level 10+), the mentioned Slow and the ever-useful Fly.

Level 4 you get Polymorph which is amazing and makes you and your familiar a melee threat regardless of your stats or whatever. It also stands heads and shoulders above other buffs. Aside from that, you don't get an awful lot. Stone Shape is great utility but situational.

Level 5 you finally get more versatile offense in Baleful Polymorph. You also get another great offensive spell in Telekinesis that combines well with your buffs. Then you get Transform Rock to Mud which is ever-useful in dungeon terrain and gives you a Ref-targeting attack too rounding out your ability to target all 3 saves and attack the enemy. Overland Flight comes here as well.


After that it just gets better, Disintegrate, Flesh to Stone, Reverse Gravity, Control Weather, Polymorph Any Object & finally Time Stop + Shapechange to go to town. Utility-wise, all access to the Ethereal Plane rocks. Level 17 Transmuter has Shapechange which is a high-tier class all by its lonesome. Having access to basically every Su and Ex ability in the game at the cost of a free action is just unheard-of ridiculosity.

Polymorph Any Object is likewise unparalleled in versatility and power and a level 15 Transmuter is truly only limited by his imagination. Level 9 Transmuter is offensively a threat to almost anybody and Level 7 is an incredible force multiplier (I'd rate Level 7 Transmuter around the same as a Bard, except with higher numbers). Below that, the class is extremely one-dimensional, though good at that one dimension. Level 1-2 Transmuter is quite sad, however.

[Der_DWSage]

If you're attempting to make a Transmutation/Conjuration specialist...hm. Let's see. I'd go one of two routes.

Enhanced Fighter:Give it something closer to a Monk Chassis, with a focus on self-buffing. (Perhaps adding certain spells as Swift actions a limited number of times per day.) A magic-enhanced combatant that can draw from a number of options at any point of combat is quite deadly, though I would also give him a few things from outside transmutation, just like the Beguiler has a few spells outside of illusion and enchantment. Mostly Dispel Magic and similar spells, just so he can force people to fight him at their basest ability. Obviously, very little focus on conjuration here.

Pokemon Trainer:...I swear this isn't influenced by the fact that I own Pokemon X. A Conjurer that chooses the best beast for the job, likely gaining the 'Enhanced Summon' line of feats as class features, and able to cast them with Transmutation effects already there. This would definitely keep the Wizard Chassis with a slightly altered spell list, and I would definitely make them charisma-based rather than anything else. Perhaps add in a few class features here too-like being able to summon something new as an immediate action if their single summon is KO'd, allowing them to keep a more valid 'beef gate' defense.

[ahenobarbi]

True, but not complete. Just look at Summon monster 7-9. You can mimic charm person, cure light wounds, identify, sleep; hold person, invisibility, sound burst. protection from chaos, wind wall; 2nd—cure moderate wounds, eagle’s splendor, scorching ray, silence; 3rd—gaseous form, magic circle against evil, summon monster III; 4th— charm monster, freedom of movement. fireball (DC 15), hold monster (DC 17), wall of force; cure critical wounds (DC 16), neutralize poison, remove disease; heal, etherealness, chaos hammer (DC 18), unholy blight (DC 18); blasphemy, major image (DC 17), scorching ray (2 rays only). order’s wrath, create food and water, create wine (as create water, but wine instead), major creation (created vegetable matter is permanent), persistent image (DC 17), wind walk. dimension door, dispel magic, gust of wind (DC 15), light, magic circle against evil (self only), magic missile, see invisibility; Lightning bolt, darkness, see invisibility.heroism. telekinesis. (And you can duplicate bard song)

That would be a solid T3 list just from Summon monster VII-IX. It can buff, Debuff, Blast, Cure, battlefield control, create illusions, break WBL (Lets create permanent spices or wine for sale!!!), spam dispel magic at hostile effects, and assist travel. If ALL you got was the Summon monster list, you might not break T2, but you might. There is some good stuff there.

Sorry for the ugly text. Copypasting from lots of monster stat blocks.

Just one problem with all that


When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire.

and SLAs are treated as spells, so most non-instantenous spellls from summons have duration effectively reduced to 1 round/CL. Still pretty good.