An insight into Miko's Origin.

[ReaderAt2046]

It occurs to me that we may have missed one of the prime causes for Miko's bizzare behavior. We know that Shojo's ruse began a few years BPD, and that Miko had been under his guidance as a Sapphire Guard for a lot longer than that (somewhere between 15 and 20 years, given that she was 28 at death, by Word of Giant, and that she was "still a child" when Shojo chose her). We also know that Shojo's guidance was a huge part of what was keeping her stable (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...0&postcount=39).

Now consider for a moment what Shojo's ruse would have looked like to Miko. She would have seen two things that would have put her mind under incredible stress.

First, she would have seen her father-figure, the man who "saw great power in her", who comforted her when she cried and gave her life purpose, degenerate into senility, into an undignified and ridiculous wreck. This alone would have been enough to put her mind under stress, to give her a wellspring of pain and hurt that nobody could now treat.

But second, her life as a Sapphire Guard was defined by loyal service, and for her first years, she saw Shojo as worthy of that service. But as he seemed to slip further and further into madness, she was more and more forced to obey the orders of someone who she did not respect, did not believe in. This also would have filled her with conflict, with the perpetual question "is there any honor in obeying a madman?"

NOTE: I am not trying to justify Miko's behavior, except possibly in the same sense that SoD "justifies" Redcloak's Evil. Miko's behavior throughout the comic was inappropriate at best, and cycled into outright insanity by the end. I merely posit this as an interesting insight into how she got that way.

[Souju]

I'm still amused he managed to keep up the ruse for so long amongst a group of paladins and clerics...it took a mid-level rogue to figure it out. Though Haley doesn't appear to have wisdom as a dump stat at all, you'd think a paladin or cleric that require it for casting would stick a few points in it...

[Ramien]

I'm still amused he managed to keep up the ruse for so long amongst a group of paladins and clerics...it took a mid-level rogue to figure it out. Though Haley doesn't appear to have wisdom as a dump stat at all, you'd think a paladin or cleric that require it for casting would stick a few points in it...

He had a high enough charisma and points in bluff (and probably improved that with some feats too) to get around it, for the most part. Either that or most Azurites are so lawfully-inclined that it never occured to them to make Sense Motive checks at the ruler of their society.

[Terrador]

He had a high enough charisma and points in bluff (and probably improved that with some feats too) to get around it, for the most part. Either that or most Azurites are so lawfully-inclined that it never occured to them to make Sense Motive checks at the ruler of their society.

Also noting that, as an aristocrat, Bluff was probably damn near maxed--and being 14th-level [presumably at least 10th before he started the deception a mere few years ago]... that is a tremendous bonus, even with negligible Cha. Improvise a masterwork tool [he'd metagame enough to have one; maybe it was Mr. Scruffy!] and/or a minor magic item, and boom. Nigh-undetectable.

[factotum]

He had a high enough charisma and points in bluff (and probably improved that with some feats too) to get around it, for the most part. Either that or most Azurites are so lawfully-inclined that it never occured to them to make Sense Motive checks at the ruler of their society.

As Haley pointed out when she figured out the shell game, "A ruse which relies on the target's innate acceptance of the rules presented to him? Against a league of paladins? Easy money.". The paladins would never believe their leader would do something as devious as Shojo did, so he got away with it for decades. If he'd been in command of the Greysky Thieves' Guild instead, chances are he wouldn't have!

[F.Harr]

It occurs to me that we may have missed one of the prime causes for Miko's bizzare behavior. We know that Shojo's ruse began a few years BPD, and that Miko had been under his guidance as a Sapphire Guard for a lot longer than that (somewhere between 15 and 20 years, given that she was 28 at death, by Word of Giant, and that she was "still a child" when Shojo chose her). We also know that Shojo's guidance was a huge part of what was keeping her stable (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...0&postcount=39).

Now consider for a moment what Shojo's ruse would have looked like to Miko. She would have seen two things that would have put her mind under incredible stress.

First, she would have seen her father-figure, the man who "saw great power in her", who comforted her when she cried and gave her life purpose, degenerate into senility, into an undignified and ridiculous wreck. This alone would have been enough to put her mind under stress, to give her a wellspring of pain and hurt that nobody could now treat.

But second, her life as a Sapphire Guard was defined by loyal service, and for her first years, she saw Shojo as worthy of that service. But as he seemed to slip further and further into madness, she was more and more forced to obey the orders of someone who she did not respect, did not believe in. This also would have filled her with conflict, with the perpetual question "is there any honor in obeying a madman?"

NOTE: I am not trying to justify Miko's behavior, except possibly in the same sense that SoD "justifies" Redcloak's Evil. Miko's behavior throughout the comic was inappropriate at best, and cycled into outright insanity by the end. I merely posit this as an interesting insight into how she got that way.

That is inCREADably interesting. Thanks.

[FujinAkari]

I didn't realize this wasn't already generally accepted. I've been assuming this for years.

[RNGgod]

I didn't realize this wasn't already generally accepted. I've been assuming this for years.

I agree; it's all very interesting, but this is basically what the War and XPs commentary says outright, and that's been out for years, but even before then it wasn't impossible to figure out.

[F.Harr]

As Haley pointed out when she figured out the shell game, "A ruse which relies on the target's innate acceptance of the rules presented to him? Against a league of paladins? Easy money.". The paladins would never believe their leader would do something as devious as Shojo did, so he got away with it for decades. If he'd been in command of the Greysky Thieves' Guild instead, chances are he wouldn't have!

But then he wouldn't have needed it.

Interesting, huh?

[Kish]

But then he wouldn't have needed it.

Interesting, huh?
...Come again? Thieves would have been less likely to try to assassinate him than nobles?

His deception had nothing to do with the paladins. It was how he dealt with being at the head of a government full of nobles who were willing to try to assassinate him if they didn't like his policies. I would actually say "But then he might have legitimately needed it," considering how a thieves' guild would likely have reacted to a fourteenth-level aristocrat trying to openly run things.

[Astroturtle]

considering how a thieves' guild would likely have reacted to a fourteenth-level aristocrat trying to openly runs things.


It might've been a shock at first, but I think they would've come to enjoy being tax collectors.

[Lord Raziere]

It might've been a shock at first, but I think they would've come to enjoy being tax collectors.

Yeah, its not as if their jobs would be all that different :smalltongue: *rimshot*

[F.Harr]

...Come again? Thieves would have been less likely to try to assassinate him than nobles?



No, but he could have had them killed without recouse to courts.

[Kish]

I don't think any part of Shojo's reason for his deception was, "Since I am alas unable to HAVE ALL THE NOBLES SLAUGHTERED, this is Plan B."

For that matter, a Thieves' Guild in which the guildmaster has killed all the other thieves is unlikely to win Most Successful Thieves' Guild of the Year.

If you mean, he knew which nobles were trying to assassinate him but couldn't do anything about it because of the law, I think you're taking a whole lot we haven't been given. He knew at least one assassin showed up. He chose to fake senility so that all the nobles would think he was just a pawn, someone they should strive to control rather than treat as a serious rival and kill; it was a strategy at least as applicable to a thieves' guild as to a city.

[F.Harr]

I don't think any part of Shojo's reason for his deception was, "Since I am alas unable to HAVE ALL THE NOBLES SLAUGHTERED, this is Plan B."

How do you know? Surely killing the nobles who sent the ninjas to kill him must have crossed his mind. It's a natural reaction.


For that matter, a Thieves' Guild in which the guildmaster has killed all the other thieves is unlikely to win Most Successful Thieves' Guild of the Year.

You don't have to kill them ALL, of course. Just enough to make the point.

On the other hand, he can't kill a SINGLE noble because that would infringe on the power all noble enjoy and they can pull in their resources and starve him out.


If you mean, he knew which nobles were trying to assassinate him but couldn't do anything about it because of the law, I think you're taking a whole lot we haven't been given. He knew at least one assassin showed up. He chose to fake senility so that all the nobles would think he was just a pawn, someone they should strive to control rather than treat as a serious rival and kill; it was a strategy at least as applicable to a thieves' guild as to a city.

You missed the point. In the Thieves' guild it's NOT NECESSARY, not NOT APPLICABLE.

Strictly speaking, it wasn't necessary in dealing with the nobles either, it was just the method he chose. Were he in charge of the Thieves' Guild, he'd have likely chosen a different method of dealing with the problem because he's not a one-trick pony. That's the point.

[Aurini]

As Haley pointed out when she figured out the shell game, "A ruse which relies on the target's innate acceptance of the rules presented to him? Against a league of paladins? Easy money.". The paladins would never believe their leader would do something as devious as Shojo did, so he got away with it for decades. If he'd been in command of the Greysky Thieves' Guild instead, chances are he wouldn't have!

Agreed; Paladins can be very naive at times because they assume the best in people.

Venal sins they understand - they're used to compatriots letting them down and pursuing temporal pleasures. Evil they understand; they study and understand it, but also out group it with righteous anger. Chaos, though? Intentional chaos? They don't think this way at all, and have trouble understanding it.

They're easy to manipulate, even though they're not stupid; and when they discover the manipulation they tend to over-react.

[factotum]

You don't have to kill them ALL, of course. Just enough to make the point.


You know Shojo was *Good*, right? Slaughtering a bunch of nobles to keep the rest in line, especially if you couldn't be sure they were the ones who were actually the problem in the first place, is most definitely way down at the Evil end of things!

[Everyl]

No, but he could have had them killed without recouse to courts.

Problem: Several of the 30 squabbling daimyos are sending assassins to kill me.

Solution: Have 5 daimyos summarily executed.

Problem: 25 daimyos have put aside their differences and openly allied to overthrow my reign of evil.

[rodneyAnonymous]

You know Shojo was *Good*, right? Slaughtering a bunch of nobles to keep the rest in line, especially if you couldn't be sure they were the ones who were actually the problem in the first place, is most definitely way down at the Evil end of things!

This is probably the most definitive argument against any plan that involves having citizens of Azure City killed. I strongly doubt Shojo would have sent ninja assassins (or etc) to kill even one noble.

[F.Harr]

You know Shojo was *Good*, right? Slaughtering a bunch of nobles to keep the rest in line, especially if you couldn't be sure they were the ones who were actually the problem in the first place, is most definitely way down at the Evil end of things!

The part of what I said you quoted was about why using the sinility ruse would not have necessary in the Thieves' Guild. Hence, no nobles to slaughter. O.K.? Just thieves. No nobles. Thieves. Straight?


Problem: Several of the 30 squabbling daimyos are sending assassins to kill me.

Solution: Have 5 daimyos summarily executed.

Problem: 25 daimyos have put aside their differences and openly allied to overthrow my reign of evil.

Which, if you would be so kind as to read the full post, was the exact same point I made.

[Astroturtle]

the part of what I said you quoted was about why using the sinility ruse would not have necessary in the Thieves' Guild. Hence, no nobles to slaughter. O.K.? Just thieves. No nobles. Thieves. Straight?

Intimidate would be an essential skill for managing a Thieves' Guild.. What kind of circumstance bonus would the severed heads of your fiercest rivals give? +5 would seem to be the bare minimum.

[Ramien]

Intimidate would be an essential skill for managing a Thieves' Guild.. What kind of circumstance bonus would the severed heads of your fiercest rivals give? +5 would seem to be the bare minimum.

Intimidate is an essential skill depending on how you're wanting to run the thieves' guild - and the tone of the thieves' guild in general. For someone like Bozzok, it's essential. If you're looking for a kinder, gentler thieves' guild, it becomes less essential, but you also lose some of the profits from the more unsavory ventures that such a guild wouldn't condone.

[F.Harr]

The death or exile of your opponant's supporters also seems to be a tradition part of Thieves' Guild leadership change. They'd be less inclined to get into a snit about it than a bunch of nobles who really just want to be left alone so they can dominate their own territory.