TOB Question

[FullmetalGamer]

Ok I am not fully familiar with that book but I have looked into it a time or two but mostly because a buddy of mine plays a Warblade.

I was curious how powerful is the Maneuver mechanics?

Could you make a really powerful character only using Maneuvers?

Would a class who uses Maneuvers more like spells. Think a martial adept who collects the techniques of all the best fighters in the world and then uses them on his adventurers.

Maybe like a Martial Wizard of sorts.

[Aegis013]

I've seen it said that 9th level maneuvers are about as powerful as 6th level spells.

In general, I find this to be a reasonable estimation, if you compare the general power level of 6th level spells to the general power level of 9th level maneuvers.

[Boci]

Maneuvers are good, and you can make solid characters using only them, but the best builds from ToB (in terms of power and versatility) are the gishy ones using either Jade Phoenix Mage for warblade or swordsage and the Ruby Knight Vindicator for crusader.

A martial wizard concept would be interesting, and with a fixed number of maneuvres readied it shouldn't be a problem balance-wise (as long as the DM ensures its relatively easy to learn new maneuvres). Just give them a starting alotment of 4-6, and maybe 1 new menauvres every 4-5 levels on their own, to represent independent research, and presumably remove the retraining option. Such a template could be added to the warblade. The swordsage would need the numbers tweaked (because they are meant to know more) and the crusader may require some more thought, as their readied maneuvres are randomly selected from the ones they know (so they should have the option of blocking lower level maneuvres for this, and that could get messy).

[Red Fel]

Ok I am not fully familiar with that book but I have looked into it a time or two but mostly because a buddy of mine plays a Warblade.

I was curious how powerful is the Maneuver mechanics?

The gist of Maneuvers is this: You get X number of Maneuvers known, Y number of Maneuvers readied (or granted, in the case of Crusaders) in any encounter. You can use maneuvers as a swift or immediate action, or as a standard action. There are also stances, which are basically persistent non-dispellable buffs.

So, in essence, you have a useful pile of cool combat techniques you can use every encounter. Each class also has its own way of refreshing maneuvers if the encounter lasts too long.

Maneuvers can do anything. Really anything. There are some that heal you, some that add fire damage, some that ignore hardness and DR, some that deal ability damage, some that let you substitute a skill check for a saving throw, some that let you add a flat damage boost to your next attack, some that give you limited flight or blindsense... The list goes on. They basically take your melee capacities and bring them to an entirely new level. And you can use them in every encounter, unlike a spellcaster's "once you're out for the day, you're out" deal.

Yeah. They're powerful.


Could you make a really powerful character only using Maneuvers?

See above. The three core ToB classes - Crusader, Swordsage and Warblade - are extremely effective right out of the box. Warblade, in particular, is good enough that you could take it straight, all 20 levels, and still be performing solidly in a group. The PrCs in that book are also excellent - in particular, as mentioned, the Ruby Knight Vindicator (or "Windicator" as it's called) and the Jade Phoenix Mage, although these two require some spellcasting ability from other classes.


Would a class who uses Maneuvers more like spells. Think a martial adept who collects the techniques of all the best fighters in the world and then uses them on his adventurers.

Maybe like a Martial Wizard of sorts.

That's precisely what these classes are. Maneuvers function very similarly to spells, but without any components. In fact, there is a PrC in the book specifically devoted to the idea of "traveling the world and mastering the best techniques," called the Master of Nine. (It's a so-so class, honestly, but it gives you access to every discipline.)

[FullStop]

...the crusader may require some more thought, as their readied maneuvres are randomly selected from the ones they know (so they should have the option of blocking lower level maneuvres for this, and that could get messy).

Not strictly true. The Crusader's mechanic is that he has known maneuvers, readied maneuvers, and granted maneuvers. He readies some number of maneuvers out of his maneuvers known (as the other two do), but of that pool, only a specific number are granted and available at the beginning of combat (he starts with 5 readied and 2 granted, I think), with an additional maneuver granted from his readied pool each round. The randomization is in him getting maneuvers granted, but they're still from a pool that the Crusader controls by choosing which maneuvers to ready.

[FullmetalGamer]

Interesting I will have to give them a better read now. I was curious because I of course have read so much about them on here and other sites.

A PrC like the Master of Nine gives 8 new ones in 5 levels as well as 5 more readied now. Thats a cool idea but I would love to see a martial class approach the power of a caster. I like casters but sometimes you just wanna cleave through the big bad and get that satisfying win.

[Red Fel]

Interesting I will have to give them a better read now. I was curious because I of course have read so much about them on here and other sites.

A PrC like the Master of Nine gives 8 new ones in 5 levels as well as 5 more readied now. Thats a cool idea but I would love to see a martial class approach the power of a caster. I like casters but sometimes you just wanna cleave through the big bad and get that satisfying win.

Here's the bottom line: Pure casters are going to be higher-tier, and often higher-power, than meleeists. That's just how it works. A caster generally has more options than a meleeist does, and they tend to scale better.

ToB did a fantastic job at narrowing the power gap, but it's still there. You won't be able to duplicate the power of Gate, Miracle, Wish, or any of those major gamebreaking 9th-level spells as a base ToB class. (Although, with spellcaster progression from RKV and JPM, you can still do some pretty nice casting.)

What you will get from Maneuvers are substantial increases in both power and versatility. You will get increased mobility without requiring feats, you will get useful class features and clever mechanics, and perhaps most importantly, you will get truly gamebreaking tricks like Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics. Oh, and you may get one or two maneuvers that can instantly kill a target. Pop, dead.

Most importantly, Maneuvers make melee fun again. It's suddenly more than just "I hit the guy, I hit the guy, I try to trip the guy." Now a combat can look like:
You: I use Elder Mountain Hammer; I deal bonus damage and overcome his DR.
DM: He tries to escape.
You: I use Mirrored Pursuit, and wind up adjacent to him no matter where he moves.
DM: He tries to cast Hold Person. Make a Will Save.
You: I use Moment of Perfect Mind, and make a Concentration check in place of the Will Save, with no chance of critical failure.
See? Options.

[Frosty]

Whereas the Fighter just takes it :smallbiggrin: Or maybe has one trick via Lockdown.

[Shining Wrath]

Most maneuvers are Extraordinary, and let you do cool stuff that's more "superhero" than "magic". For example, Adamantine Hurricane (level 8, Iron Heart discipline) lets you attack everyone adjacent to you.
Twice.
With +4 on your to hit roll.
If you're drawing a crowd (and as a Warblade, you SHOULD be in the thick of things) you can destroy 4 or 5 mooks in a single round.

Some are Supernatural; for example, Shadow Blink (level 7, Shadow Hand) lets you teleport 50' as a swift action. Combine this with Adamantine Hurricane - teleport into the middle of a crowd as a swift action, unleash the hurricane as a standard. This only works, though, if you've multi-classed or prestige classed, as no base class grants access to both Iron Heart and Shadow Hand.

Which brings up the other excellent ToB prestige class; the Master of Nine isn't a gish, the Mo9 gets to choose lots of maneuvers from any discipline. And ready most of them. It's pretty hard to qualify for Mo9, but if you want to be able to function as an anime "Old Man of the Mountain" sword master, it's your class.

[gomipile]

That's precisely what these classes are. Maneuvers function very similarly to spells, but without any components. In fact, there is a PrC in the book specifically devoted to the idea of "traveling the world and mastering the best techniques," called the Master of Nine. (It's a so-so class, honestly, but it gives you access to every discipline.)

I think you may have missed the OP's point. He meant a hypothetical maneuver-using base class which can learn new maneuvers without leveling up, and potentially learn every level-appropriate maneuver. He meant wizard as in wizard vs sorcerer, where a wizard can learn a new spell at any time, whereas a sorcerer has to wait for a new level just as all 3 TOB base classes do.