How do you handle massive amounts of buffs?

[molten_dragon]

My group just finished our Skull and Shackles campaign last night with a battle of epic proportions against the Chelish invasion fleet and it's admiral, Druvalia Thrune.

Nearly every combatant in the fight was a spellcaster, including:

Level 15 druid
Level 15 sorcerer
Level 15 cleric
Level 13 cleric
Level 18 wizard
Level 14 paladin
2 summoned devils with spell-like abilities.

Needless to say everyone was buffed to hell and back, with most having at least a dozen different buffs running at the start of the fight.

Then the dispelling started.

Simply keeping track of which buffs were still on each person and which had been dispelled, and recalculating stats to match became a major chore.

Normally it's not nearly this bad, since they won't use that many buffs for a fight, but this one they knew it was happening ahead of time, they had a decent idea who/what they were going to fight, they knew it was the final epic battle of the whole adventure path (metagaming, but what can you do), and it was their only fight that day, so they were all able to break out everything they had.

So how do you handle stuff like this so it doesn't bog the game down? I made an excel sheet that handles applying buffs so you don't have to do them manually, and that works decently, but not everyone in my group has a laptop they can bring with them to the sessions.

I've thought about just bringing like an egg timer or something and only giving each person 30 seconds on their turn to figure out what they're doing, but when the entire party just got hit with chain dispel and lost half their buffs, that seems kind of unfair. Like I'm punishing them for not being able to do math quickly enough.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Make Walls of (Greater) Dispel Magic and Dispelling Screens commonplace, and ban Persistent Spell. They'll eventually get the idea and only have a few buffs active at any given time.

[Raven777]

Pathfinder. Persistent Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/persistent-spell-metamagic) is an entirely different thing in PF, and there are no Walls of Dispel Magic.

As for how to deal with it, every time someone gets buffed, make them write it down:

Spell Name | Caster Level | Bonuses Given | Max Duration | Current Duration

Then write down the totals for the modified attributes at the bottom of the list. When one buff gets successfully dispelled, strike it and recalculate the total. Then each player should have immediate access to the numbers they need when their turn comes up, which, with a party of that size, should leave them ample time to figure things out in between turns.

[PraxisVetli]

Can't remember the name, but isn't there a spell (Abj, probably) that hits someone with a d6 for every spell level affecting them?
That's a trick you probably won't have to pull twice. Admittedly, it's cruel, but also sound tactically, and hey, that's what you get for meta'ing!

[PraxisVetli]

Reciprocal Gyre, CArc 119
5th lvl spell.
Caps at 25 d6


http://dndtools.eu/spells/complete-arcane--55/reciprocal-gyre--445/

[Raven777]

He's not asking for in-game ways to deal with it guys, he's asking for out of game ways to keep tabs in a timely manner.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Even better is Arcane Turmoil in CM, it's a 2nd level spell that acts like a targeted Dispel Magic, plus if the target fails a Will save they lose one of their highest level spell slots or prepared spells. A Wizard 5 can get the Inquisition domain's power instead of his 5th level bonus feat, which adds +4 to dispel checks. A specialized Abjurer with Master Specialist adds his class level to his dispel checks.

A Duskblade 3/ Warlock 11 can use Arcane Channeling to deliver a Devour Magic invocation via a weapon attack, at will. There's also Voracious Dispelling, in case they can't get into melee range. Throw on Havoc Mage 3+ and they can spend a full round action to make a single attack and use Voracious Dispelling or another invocation. Duskblade 5/ Warlock 8/ Havoc Mage 5 still gets Devour Magic, and can use Quickcast with Voracious Dispelling. Or make a Duskblade 3/ Warlock 1/ Warblade 1/ Bloodstorm Blade 2/ Warlock 10 and use Thunderous Throw to use Arcane Channeling with Devour Magic on a thrown weapon attack that counts as a melee attack.

[Eldonauran]

I use Hero Lab for my Pathfinder games. Helps me keep track of my sheets and my players sheets fairly easily. It has a page to show what spell effects are on/off and let's you toggle them easily.

It's a bit ... expensive to get all the Pathfinder data in Hero Lab. So, YMMV.

[molten_dragon]

Pathfinder. Persistent Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/persistent-spell-metamagic) is an entirely different thing in PF, and there are no Walls of Dispel Magic.

No, we actually are using 3.5 rules, although persistent spell isn't an issue.


As for how to deal with it, every time someone gets buffed, make them write it down:

Spell Name | Caster Level | Bonuses Given | Max Duration | Current Duration

Then write down the totals for the modified attributes at the bottom of the list. When one buff gets successfully dispelled, strike it and recalculate the total. Then each player should have immediate access to the numbers they need when their turn comes up, which, with a party of that size, should leave them ample time to figure things out in between turns.

That's essentially what people are doing now and what's taking so long. That works okay when you've got a couple buffs, but when you've got a dozen of them, some of which stack, some of which overlap, and that affect 20 different things on your character sheet, and 9 of them just got dispelled, it takes a lot of time to recalculate everything.

Having them a little more organized probably would help some though I guess. Maybe I can make an excel sheet or something to print out that they can list buffs on in an organized way.

[molten_dragon]

Can't remember the name, but isn't there a spell (Abj, probably) that hits someone with a d6 for every spell level affecting them?
That's a trick you probably won't have to pull twice. Admittedly, it's cruel, but also sound tactically,


Make Walls of (Greater) Dispel Magic and Dispelling Screens commonplace, and ban Persistent Spell. They'll eventually get the idea and only have a few buffs active at any given time.


Even better is Arcane Turmoil in CM, it's a 2nd level spell that acts like a targeted Dispel Magic, plus if the target fails a Will save they lose one of their highest level spell slots or prepared spells. A Wizard 5 can get the Inquisition domain's power instead of his 5th level bonus feat, which adds +4 to dispel checks. A specialized Abjurer with Master Specialist adds his class level to his dispel checks.

A Duskblade 3/ Warlock 11 can use Arcane Channeling to deliver a Devour Magic invocation via a weapon attack, at will. There's also Voracious Dispelling, in case they can't get into melee range. Throw on Havoc Mage 3+ and they can spend a full round action to make a single attack and use Voracious Dispelling or another invocation. Duskblade 5/ Warlock 8/ Havoc Mage 5 still gets Devour Magic, and can use Quickcast with Voracious Dispelling. Or make a Duskblade 3/ Warlock 1/ Warblade 1/ Bloodstorm Blade 2/ Warlock 10 and use Thunderous Throw to use Arcane Channeling with Devour Magic on a thrown weapon attack that counts as a melee attack.

I'm not really looking for ways to punish the PCs for buffing or to dispel their buffs. I'm looking for ways to make applying and removing buffs quicker and easier for the players at the gaming table.


and hey, that's what you get for meta'ing!

I'm not really upset about the metagaming. They had plenty of non metagame reasons to do what they did.

[molten_dragon]

I use Hero Lab for my Pathfinder games. Helps me keep track of my sheets and my players sheets fairly easily. It has a page to show what spell effects are on/off and let's you toggle them easily.

It's a bit ... expensive to get all the Pathfinder data in Hero Lab. So, YMMV.

I've looked and looked for something that would work like that, but we're playing 3.5, so there's nothing available that has support for all the splatbooks.

[2xMachina]

Hmm yeah, a spreadsheet seems to be the best option.

Maybe share the laptop? Depending on how easy to use the excel file is, it shouldn't be too troublesome to do all the chars from 1 computer.

EDIT: I do kind of wish WoTC did create something like Hero Lab with all the splatbooks supported, so long you've bought the book involved (online account, with adding books through passwords found in the book)

[PraxisVetli]

I use Hero Lab for my Pathfinder games. Helps me keep track of my sheets and my players sheets fairly easily. It has a page to show what spell effects are on/off and let's you toggle them easily.

It's a bit ... expensive to get all the Pathfinder data in Hero Lab. So, YMMV.


Hmm yeah, a spreadsheet seems to be the best option.

Maybe share the laptop? Depending on how easy to use the excel file is, it shouldn't be too troublesome to do all the chars from 1 computer.

EDIT: I do kind of wish WoTC did create something like Hero Lab with all the splatbooks supported, so long you've bought the book involved (online account, with adding books through passwords found in the book)

My crew, we've dry erase boards for field use, but if theres a lotta buffomancy going on, we'll usually just have one board just for all the spells written up, and each player pays attention to the ones they casted (name and effect).
the total buffs are on the bottom, and as dispelling or spell duration occurs, they're crossed off, and the remainders are added, and the bottom total altered. it will take adjusting to, but nice in the long run.