Is Wildshape Variant Ranger any fun to play at low levels? Any fixes?

[johnbragg]

So the Wildshape Variant Ranger doesn't get Combat Style, and gets to start Wildshaping at level 5.

So for three levels he's a Warrior with Track and Wild Empathy, and at level 4 he's a Warrior with Track, Wild Empathy and an Animal Companion.

Meanwhile he's not probably not investing his feats in anything that he'll lose when in Wild Shape.

Has anyone played a low-level Wildshaping Ranger?

Would it make sense to make WSR a prestige class and let players spend the first few levels as something else?

Barbarian or Wilderness Rogue make sense flavor-wise, but is wildshape + sneak attack or wildshape + rage too much?

Or a Fighter with a tweaked skill list? But that just gives you more bonus feats to play with that either don't help much now, or don't help when you start Wildshaping.

Maybe Monk with a tweaked skill list? Unarmed strike kind of progresses smoothly into natural attacks....

Or do players just suck it up for four levels before their class is any good?

[Talya]

Try Wildshape Mystic Ranger.

[Kennisiou]

If you don't like the idea of being a scout/skillmonkey whose only real use in combat is using a wand of clw/entangle or attacking with a bow (better than a wizard would but worse than a bow-spec'd rogue or scout or fighter), then generally avoid playing the class unless the campaign starts at level 5 or higher. Even at level 5 until you're l6 and can take the extra wildshape feat you're going to find you're still basically being a skill-monkey until then.

Part of how I've fixed it in my earlier play was taking improved unarmed strike l1 (alongside able learner as a human) and then taking improved grapple l3. That let me be an effective grappler even with a low strength score due to full BaB progression and improved grapple. You could even start that way at level one if you have a bonus feat. That lets you be a grappler in combat which is useful if there's rogues/factotums around needing openings to sneak attack/iaijutsu focus and out of combat you're a wilderness skillmonkey with your survival skill and your scouting skills (compared to the rogue's usual dungeon/city skillmonkeying with party face skills, disguise, and disable device/open lock).

No matter what, wildshape ranger is going to feel like a worse version of other classes at its early levels because you don't really have the stats to do the things you want to. You can patch it up a bit and still be useful later, but mostly it's a case of a lot of the things you'l spec to do early you won't care about later if you're building for early power.

[johnbragg]

Try Wildshape Mystic Ranger.

Does Mystic Ranger get spells before the regular Ranger? It should, but I can't find a table online.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, and a Glaive. Add on Cleave if you can use flaws. You'll have a 40 ft. move speed, so it should be easy to get into an advantageous position. With light armor you should have a decent Dex, so position yourself to be able to make a lot of AoOs. At that level most opponents will go down in a single hit, so it's easy to take down an entire encounter like that.


Does Mystic Ranger get spells before the regular Ranger? It should, but I can't find a table online.

It gets 0-level spells at 1st level, 1st level spells at 2nd, 3rd level spells at 6th, 4th level spells at 8th, and 5th level spells at 10th level. If you make the character a Frostblood Half-Orc from Dragon Magic, you'll get Endurance as a racial bonus feat and can take any feat you want in place of the Ranger's Endurance bonus feat, which shows up at 4th level on a Mystic Ranger. That's the perfect level to be able to get Sword of the Arcane Order, though you'll want Magical Training at 1st if you go that route. Also note that a Mystic Ranger doesn't get an animal companion, but you can take Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) at 1st and it will continue to progress if you prestige into Master of Many Forms and/or Warshaper.

[Talya]

Does Mystic Ranger get spells before the regular Ranger? It should, but I can't find a table online.

Mystic ranger adds cantrips and level 5 spells. It gets spells at level 1 and basically follows sorcerer progression up to level 10. After that, you only increase in spells per day -it never gets spells above 5th level, and its progression essentially ends at level 17.

You lose the animal companion, and you lose martial melee weapon proficiencies, only keeping ranged. Some other abilities are delayed one level.

[Asrrin]

I actually helped my friend make a wildshape ranger for our mid-to-high optimized game starting at level 1. We have me the batman sorcerer, rogue prestiging into assassin, swordsage, and a DMM cleric. (He's the only T1 because he's absolutely new to the game and I wanted to give him a leg up.) The DM has made it fairly easy for the ranger to feel very noticeable in the group because our campaign takes place in the forest and we fought mostly his Favored Enemies for the first two levels.

[Chronos]

So for three levels he's a Warrior with Track and Wild Empathy, and at level 4 he's a Warrior with Track, Wild Empathy and an Animal Companion. No, for four levels he's a ranger. Comparing a ranger to a warrior is like comparing a wizard to a commoner. Yeah, you have the warrior's BAB and hit die, but you also have everything that makes a ranger rangery. All you're missing compared to a standard ranger is a single subpar feat, and you've already gotten something in exchange for that, fast movement. You still have the Track, Wild Empathy, and Animal Companion you mentioned, and 6 skill points per level with a decent list to choose from, and two good saves, and the ability to use a fair smattering of wands.

[johnbragg]

No, for four levels he's a ranger. Comparing a ranger to a warrior is like comparing a wizard to a commoner.

Well, if the wizard is out of spells.....

Seriously, the low-level ranger is losing one of the, for better or worse, defining things about the D&D ranger in return for something really cool later.


Yeah, you have the warrior's BAB and hit die, but you also have everything that makes a ranger rangery. All you're missing compared to a standard ranger is a single subpar feat,

TWF has problems, but I wouldn't call it a subpar feat at low levels.


and you've already gotten something in exchange for that, fast movement. You still have the Track, Wild Empathy, and Animal Companion you mentioned,

You don't get the Animal Companion until level four. Actually, in the wrong party--druid, ranger, wizard/sorcerer--the ranger is the only guy without an animal buddy before level 4.


and 6 skill points per level with a decent list to choose from, and two good saves, and the ability to use a fair smattering of wands.

You do have Track and Wild Empathy, and good skills. The skills mean you're not a Warrior, you're at least a Warrior//Expert gestalt, which isn't terrible--full BAB, d8 HD, 2 good saves, 6 skill points, plus Track and Wild Empathy.

It's just a very weird power curve where you go from Tier 5 at 3rd level to Tier 3 at 5th level.

Maybe instead of figuring out what Rogue/Barbarian/Monk signature abilities to steal, just give the Wildshape Variant RAnger the Animal Companion at 1st level?

[Kaerou]

iirc wildshape ranger does not get large and tiny forms. So yet another melee can't have nice things that the Druid can do everything they can but better.

I would advise houseruling large + tiny forms into their progression. That should fix a little bit of the Druid nose-thumbing at the wildshape ranger.

[Asrrin]

iirc wildshape ranger does not get large and tiny forms. So yet another melee can't have nice things that the Druid can do everything they can but better.

I would advise houseruling large + tiny forms into their progression. That should fix a little bit of the Druid nose-thumbing at the wildshape ranger.

Because of the abysmal casting progression of the ranger, PrCing into Master of Many Forms and Warshaper actually fix this problem quite nicely, and they have MUCH less to lose than druids doing a similar schtick.

[Chronos]

And Fireball is one of the defining features of the D&D wizard. Doesn't mean you can't play a wizard at below level 5.

[Talya]

Because of the abysmal casting progression of the ranger, PrCing into Master of Many Forms and Warshaper actually fix this problem quite nicely, and they have MUCH less to lose than druids doing a similar schtick.

Note that if you're going Wildshape Mystic Ranger, this is still beautiful.

Mystic Rangers do get pretty good casting progression, up to level 10. After that, all they get is more spells per day. The MoMF takes very little away from them...

[Kennisiou]

Note that if you're going Wildshape Mystic Ranger, this is still beautiful.

Mystic Rangers do get pretty good casting progression, up to level 10. After that, all they get is more spells per day. The MoMF takes very little away from them...

And all of these still go well with early grapple feats to make yourself useful in combat if you're out of spells or have cast your relevant ones (or if you're up against higher SR/saves than you can deal with or an anti-magic field you'll still do something, although that's usually not likely at early levels), and improved grapple remains useful while you're doing the wildshape tricks.

[Big Fau]

A common house rule is to allow Wildshape Rangers to use the Shapeshift variant from PH2, and then use that variant from 1st level onwards.

[johnbragg]

A common house rule is to allow Wildshape Rangers to use the Shapeshift variant from PH2, and then use that variant from 1st level onwards.

I'm very open to letting the Ranger get shapeshifting/wildshaping earlier, but what is the PH2 variant? My google fu is weak--I get that it's "weaker" than Wildshape, but that's about all I'm getting.

[Coidzor]

Basically depending upon level the character can assume various different forms which offer something like flight or claws or claws and a bite, and add a bonus/penalty to various ability scores. It's basically as many times a day as they'd want, whenever they want, starting from level 1. I think it might be one of the simplest ways to enter Warshaper, with a 1 level dip in Druid.

They also can't cast spells while shapeshifted. Probably some other things I'm forgetting, since I'm AFB. Also, since they're using their own ability scores, they can't really dump stats, even if they start above 5th level. Granted, if they start above 5th level, they're better off doing something like Wildshape Ranger 5(or was it 6?)/MoMF 7-10/Nature's Warrior X/Warshaper Y without the shapeshift variant.

[johnbragg]

iirc wildshape ranger does not get large and tiny forms. So yet another melee can't have nice things that the Druid can do everything they can but better.

I would advise houseruling large + tiny forms into their progression. That should fix a little bit of the Druid nose-thumbing at the wildshape ranger.

It sounds like the PHB II shapeshift gives a limited menu of forms, and as you go up in level, you know more forms? That sounds excellent. The big complaint I saw on forum archives through google is no aquatic form, no climbing form, which I think is pretty fixable. Likewise no Large or Tiny forms--either fixable, or fortunate.

As for the druid having better wildshape, I see this as part of a package to have semi-recognizable forms of the "traditional classes" around Tier 3-4. So you can turn into a bear, or you can summon bears, but you can't do both without multiclassing. You can still ride a bear either way, though, that's just cool.

[Big Fau]

I'm very open to letting the Ranger get shapeshifting/wildshaping earlier, but what is the PH2 variant? My google fu is weak--I get that it's "weaker" than Wildshape, but that's about all I'm getting.
It's about 2 pages long and not OGC, so I can't repost it here.


It sounds like the PHB II shapeshift gives a limited menu of forms, and as you go up in level, you know more forms? That sounds excellent. The big complaint I saw on forum archives through google is no aquatic form, no climbing form, which I think is pretty fixable. Likewise no Large or Tiny forms--either fixable, or fortunate.

As for the druid having better wildshape, I see this as part of a package to have semi-recognizable forms of the "traditional classes" around Tier 3-4. So you can turn into a bear, or you can summon bears, but you can't do both without multiclassing. You can still ride a bear either way, though, that's just cool.

That isn't a trait of the PH2 Shapeshift ACF, that's a trait of the Wildshape Ranger variant.

[johnbragg]

It's about 2 pages long and not OGC, so I can't repost it here.

Naturally. I just want to get a solid idea that it's something I want to have before I spend the money.


That isn't a trait of the PH2 Shapeshift ACF, that's a trait of the Wildshape Ranger variant.

Does that apply to:
It sounds like the PHB II shapeshift gives a limited menu of forms, and as you go up in level, you know more forms? That sounds excellent. The big complaint I saw on forum archives through google is no aquatic form, no climbing form, which I think is pretty fixable. Likewise no Large or Tiny forms--either fixable, or fortunate.

Because if PHB II Shapeshift isn't something like that, then I'm sort of back to the beginning.

If what you said was in response to:
As for the druid having better wildshape, I see this as part of a package to have semi-recognizable forms of the "traditional classes" around Tier 3-4. So you can turn into a bear, or you can summon bears, but you can't do both without multiclassing. You can still ride a bear either way, though, that's just cool.

Then that's just about my package of homebrewed and variant classes. (No Tier 1-2s, but there are fix-classes with the same or similar names). So the player has to choose between turning into a bear (WS Ranger) or summoning bears (Druid rebuilt with the Adept chassis, Sorcerer Spells Known and Adept spells-per-day plus one spell per day per level).

[Grod_The_Giant]

The Shapeshift druid's alternate forms work less like Wild Shape and more like Rage. The text says "you look like a wolf, panther, or some such animal," and it gives you some stat boosts, movement modes, natural weapon, natural armor, and a bonus feat at a higher level. But given that it's swift-action and at-will, it's loads of fun at low levels.

Also, for the first few levels of the game, "warrior/expert gestalt" is pretty solid, provided you didn't dump physical stats with the expectation of not needing them later. Grab Power Attack and a two-handed martial weapon of your choice and you'll do just fine in a fight, while having the skills to be useful everywhere else.

[johnbragg]

The Shapeshift druid's alternate forms work less like Wild Shape and more like Rage. The text says "you look like a wolf, panther, or some such animal," and it gives you some stat boosts, movement modes, natural weapon, natural armor, and a bonus feat at a higher level. But given that it's swift-action and at-will, it's loads of fun at low levels.

And as you advance in levels, you get to pick more packages? That sounds quite good.

[Grod_The_Giant]

And as you advance in levels, you get to pick more packages? That sounds quite good.
Not quite. You get "predator form" at 1st, "aerial form" at 5th, "ferocious slayer" at 8th, "forest avenger" (a plant) at 12th, and "elemental fury" at 16th. No choices involved, sadly. It's a good area for homebrew, I suppose.

[johnbragg]

Not quite. You get "predator form" at 1st, "aerial form" at 5th, "ferocious slayer" at 8th, "forest avenger" (a plant) at 12th, and "elemental fury" at 16th. No choices involved, sadly. It's a good area for homebrew, I suppose.

I like that framework. I might accelerate the progression and add a few an aquatic form, a non-bird scouting form (cat, fox, rodent), maybe swap out the plant form and elemental form for just extrabadass animal forms.

I also think the player should have some control over the progression--at say 4th level, he could take aerial form or aquatic form or small-scouting form.