Lost in creating 5th character for game

[Siltharon]

Hello. I'm not really an active member on this forum but I'd like to have help on a problem that has been bothering me. A good friend of mine asked me to join his gaming group since he just started a new campaign in a homebrew setting. He told me I could play anything I want as long as I don't step on anyone's toes. Problem is though ... I'm not that experienced with roles of several classes since I know the stereotypical image isn't always right.

So here is the current group (infos by the dm):
>bard ... I think he will go sublime chord or something like this (is that a prc?)
>some sort of barbarian mishmash ... going into a ToB class at some point
>cleric ... I think he likes to be support and to healbot
>swordsage .... a bit roguestyle with shadowblade and focus on Shadow Hand

There are some classes I'd like to play but I'm not sure which one fits good ... we play 3.5 but I can use Pathfinder classes if I want. So those I thought about are:
>Oracle ... with the wind mistery. The idea of an wind focused caster intrigues me. Also I really love charisma based caster
>Summoner ... I like the flavour and it's also charisma based

>PF psionics ... I've sadly never come to play one before (mainly because I just got hands on the books) but I'd like to play one of the following:
>Dread .... sounds fascinating to me and it's cha based ... Problem is it's kinda of an evil class (?!) and hard to rp as a good char (neutral could be possible though)
>Cryptic ... It's an interesting class but it's not charisma based and I'd rather play something else this game but we lack a real skillmonkey with trapfinding
>Tactician ... I like the battlefieldcontrol and support the class offers but I'm not sure if I'm stepping on toes here or if the class is helpful at all in this group
>Aegis ... sounds awesome but as before I'm not sure on the usefulness

Rules for charactercreation are: rolled stats 5d6 and best 3; no flaws no traits (probably I can convince my dm for one or two if they fit the story)

Also it's not really relevant but psionic almost entirely vanished in this world ... there was a big empire in the past which was psionic and when it overthrew itself psionics almost vanished. So it would be harder to roleplay (or more interesting if you want so) to be psionic and probably necessary to hide my abilities or fake that they are spells. Same for the Summoner ... the connection to the planes is very weak so having an Eidolon also makes for some hard/interesting roleplaying. General think of a low magic world which used to be high magic. I think the campaign is about discovering what happened in the past and why the connections to the planes are so bad.

I'm kinda lost now because I'm not sure which role needs to be filled and how I avoid on stepping on toes. I really appreciate your experience and help everybody!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It looks like the group could use a Wizard, the best way to do it is to focus on crowd controls, debuffs, and buffing the party when needed. Here's the Batman Wizard guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002) and then there's an even better guide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394) IMO because it's a bit more in-depth. Just to note, specializing in Conjuration for all the nonsummoning spells it offers is one of the most optimal choices. Conjuration (Creation) effects are some of the strongest and most plentiful crowd controls and damage dealing spells in the game.

[Amphetryon]

You and your group might enjoy a fog-based Sorcerer in that party. Almost every spell level provides a new fog-type BFC spell, some of which function as damage dealers or debuffs as secondary effects. If the other part of your spell repertoire is focused on movement and utility spells, you should find yourself useful, in a role similar in some respects to a Wind Oracle/Tactician mishmash.

[Siltharon]

@Biffoniacus_Furio: I've played a Wizard years ago and I remember it was a lot of fun but I'd like to try something new now. The biggest problem I have with Wizards is that I don't like the flavour a lot. I'd rather play a Sorceror or Psion instead. Also ... aren't Wizards generally considered one of the most powerful classes? Maybe I would overshadow some of the other players after a few levels. On the other hand I'm not that experienced with arcane spellcaster so that might balance the whole thing a bit.

I think I enjoy charisma based chars more than int based since I can pump it then (mechanically it is pretty bad for almost every other constellation). For example ... even though the Tactician is int based he has some good cha synergy .... at level 4 +4 ac for 3 rounds (18 int 16 cha) for the whole party is a pretty good thing I'd say.

@Amphetryon: That is a good idea indeed ... thank you. Though I'd still rather stick to the classes I talked about in the first post. Any way to fill a similar effective role with this classes?

edit: Can a Psion with extensive use of Psychic Reformation fill a similar role to a batman wizard?

[Telonius]

Bard to Sublime Chord is a way to make Bard a stronger spellcaster. So, you've got basically a spellcaster/skillmonkey/face, a heavy hitter (Barbarian), a Cleric, and a scout/utility guy (Swordsage).

I don't believe you actually have a trapfinder in there, and your ability to hit things that are far away might need some tweaking. Also, Bard is a spontaneous caster, so even with Sublime Chord it's going to be a bit lacking in versatility for spell selection.

Have you considered Artificer? They're a force multiplier in that they multiply what your wealth can get you. The Swordsage and the Barbarian will love what you can do for their weapons and armor. They have Int-based infusions, but Charisma helps out a lot with the Use Magic Device checks. (You only really "need" 16 Int anyway, since infusions cap at 6th-level and most of them are buffs. You should be fine to start at 14 int and get a headband +2 sometime before you hit the higher levels). With a little planning, you can supply the team with those scrolls and wands that aren't going to be covered by the Bard and Cleric. They get trapfinding. Metamagic wands will let you snipe from a distance.

[Siltharon]

Hmmm I've never played an Artificer before and I think it might be fun indeed. But after doing some research isn't it a terrible hard class to play? I would much rather spend my time playing than looking for the best spell or item to solve the situation. Also I'm currently really busy so planning ahead before sessions might be a big turnoff if that's really required to play an effective Artificer.
I can ask my dm though what he thinks of the class.

What about the classes I talked about in the first post though? Nobody thoughts on them? Or are there just very few ppl playing them? :smallfrown:

[Xerlith]

well, first of all, the roles in your party are, as I see it:

- The spellcaster - Bard.
- The thingsmasher- barbarian
- The support/healer -duh, cleric
- skillmonkey - swordsage.

So basically, they could use a second tank or another caster (as long as you choose different spells it's okay, I guess).

Roll a sorcadin. Or a Dervish Magus.

[Siltharon]

well, first of all, the roles in your party are, as I see it:

- The spellcaster - Bard.
- The thingsmasher- barbarian
- The support/healer -duh, cleric
- skillmonkey - swordsage.

So basically, they could use a second tank or another caster (as long as you choose different spells it's okay, I guess).

Roll a sorcadin. Or a Dervish Magus.

Oh thank you for the role breakdown of the group! So basically they got the basics covered (brute, skillmonkey, arcane, divine caste).

Hmm I will see what I can do .... probably some mix of caster and melee or even ranged would be good. You know for this kind of situation psionics sound good though or am I wrong? Because I can use some powers which aren't easily copied by spells (I think every group loves to have Psychic Reformation in some way).

Thanks for the ideas though ... Magus sounds good but sadly I haven't got Ultimate Magic and I'd like to have the book on hand. Sorcadin isn't really my style after I have looked up some books. I prefer gyshs out of the book instead of combining classes which work from some point onwards (you see we start at level 1 so it would be nice to consistently increase in power instead of working different on different levels of play).

I will definitely look into some combinations of gyshs ... arcane aswell as psionic though. Thank you again :smallsmile:

[Xerlith]

Hm. Are you bent on having an arcane gish, or are you open to a divine one? I have some options in store for you, options that give you a gish almost-out of the box that scales nicely.

Well, anyway, take a look at the Duskblade class.

[Siltharon]

Hm. Are you bent on having an arcane gish, or are you open to a divine one? I have some options in store for you, options that give you a gish almost-out of the box that scales nicely.

Well, anyway, take a look at the Duskblade class.

what gysh are you talking about? Bring it on ... I might give it a shot.

If at all I'd go with the Magus instead of the Duskblade so not really an option.

[ArcturusV]

How much of a "skillmonkey" is the bard and the swordsage? There's a lot of skills out there, and some of the fun comes from corner cases that aren't often covered. Does that mean the Swordsage specializes in agile fighting? Hiding/scouting?

Rolling a classic "Thief" might be fun. The lockpicking, device disabling, pick pocketing variety. It's probably a niche that isn't being filled. Of course it may not be fun/viable depending on how your DM's campaign is going. So you might want to ask about that. But I somehow doubt the Swordsage or the Bard really has that aspect covered.

You keep mentioning Charisma Focus, for some reason. Not sure why that's important, I'd figure the bard has the charisma domain pretty well sewn up. But if you want a Charisma focused caster with a different flavor who won't be really stepping on the Bard (Who probably does specialize in Save or Lose spells, Illusions, Enchantments, etc, bardic bread and butter) or the Cleric (Heals, buffs, divinations most likely), might go with the Shugenja. Divine caster, drawing forth elemental power might also give you a strange connection to these other planes like you mentioned with the Summoner, could be handy. Fairly simple and easy to play so it's not too hard to pick up, Charisma focused, depending on your element you could have a wide range of abilities on it that you're focused on. Probably won't want a Water element as that tends to be the Healer type. But Fire and Air are both good choices, giving you some decently fun blasting or utility options respectively. Earth is probably a no go due to being focused more or less on Buffs, which is in your Cleric's wheelhouse.

[Siltharon]

I think the bard is focused on knowledge and such stuff mainly while the swordsage is focusing on sneaking and perception. It's probably true that they are not "real" skillmonkeys.

hmm if I'd have to be the skillmonkey to cover rest of the roles (or biggest part) I'd probably play the cryptic since it is a really good psionic skillmonkey class with a very unique set of skills to work with problems presented.

Charisma is because I just love it as an attribute and for some reason I'm drawn to playing a strong personality character for this campaign. Thing is my dm told me about the two players (the bard and cleric that is) and said that the bard player is sometimes a bit too passive for his liking of a facerole and the cleric trolls a bit too much. So it would be a nice boon to fill the facerole to some extent.
I like the Shugenja but what I don't like about it is that it has so few skillpoints to play around with. Thanks for the ideas though ... every post makes me realize a bit more where I want to go with my character :smallsmile:

right now I'm more tending towards one of the psionic classes I mentioned in my first post: dread (if I can think of a way to play him good AND as a partyface), aegis (I wouldn't be sure on what to focus here .... tanking? I guess?), Tactitican (my team would love me, I get 9th level (what makes for some awesome things I can do with feats) and they get psychic reformation), Cryptic (my favourite take on skillmonkeys ... but I'm not sure I'd enjoy one right now)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Bard already handles Charisma.
Cleric and Swordsage both use Wisdom over the other mental stats.
Barbarian strong, not smart.

It looks like you should go with an Int-focused character. I'd recommend a Warforged Psion, with the Shaper discipline and Adamantine Body, plus Psiforged Body if flaws are available. Get a Psicrystal (Hero personality) along with the powers Share Pain, Vigor, and Psionic Repair Damage. Keep Share Pain on your Psicrystal at all times so you take half damage from all sources, the Psicrystal's Hardness 8 reduces every instance of damage it takes from Share Pain regardless of the original attack's type. Keep it in a compartment on your person so opponents will never have line of sight/effect to it and cannot target it directly or hit it with area effects. When you use Vigor or Psionic Repair Damage you can share it with the psicrystal just like any other buff.

He wouldn't be very well suited to physical combat, but he will definitely be tanky. You can use Psionic Minor Creation to make Black Lotus Extract (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#poison), which you'll be immune to due to being a Warforged. If you get Astral Construct (which you should) be sure to take the Personal Construct (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070411a) ACF. I'd grab Expanded Knowledge for Energy Missile, which can target an opponent's weapon, shield, armor, spell component pouch/divine focus, and person, significantly reducing their effectiveness. This should answer any questions you have (http://www.brilliantgameologists.com/boards/?topic=10238.0). The Bestow Power trick to recharge your powerpoints works best with Midnight Augmentation. You may want to consider getting Soulforged (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39584) as well if using flaws, though the trick is a bit cheesy, especially with Persistent Power (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/msrd/ArcanaOccupationsandFeats.rtf) (3.0 Psionics Handbook, still valid).

[JusticeZero]

>Dread .... sounds fascinating to me and it's cha based ... Problem is it's kinda of an evil class (?!) and hard to rp as a good char (neutral could be possible though)I actually commented on this in another thread a few minutes ago.
In my campaign setting, a common effect of traumatizing a commoner is to create a level 1 Dread. It isn't an evil class as a result. Go look for a selection of people with PTSD - sexual/child/domestic abuse recovery organizations, survivors of natural disasters, suvivors of wars, etc - and imagine a bunch of those people, with no change in base personality, spontaneously healing from their PTSD caused nightmares and trauma triggers by learning how to project fear psychically. Gee, opens up a lot of character concepts that are good alignmed, doesn't it?
>Tactician ... I like the battlefieldcontrol and support the class offers but I'm not sure if I'm stepping on toes here or if the class is helpful at all in this groupI assure you, they are quite helpful to have around. The powers and buffs they have can really help the team out. They are different enough from anything I see there that that wouldn't be stepping on toes. It's a very supporty class, mind.
>Aegis ... sounds awesome but as before I'm not sure on the usefulnessVery versatile tanky fighter type. As far as usefulness, start by thinking "I'm basically Tony Stark". Now, ask yourself if that opens up a lot of things that you can do to help out. It really does.
psionic almost entirely vanished in this world ... there was a big empire in the past which was psionic and when it overthrew itself psionics almost vanished. So it would be harder to roleplay (or more interesting if you want so) to be psionic and probably necessary to hide my abilities or fake that they are spells.Depends. Just because something is uncommon doesn't mean that it is hated. It might be being encouraged, or people might just assume you're a mage.
Your description of the party has no huge holes. Some might be made depending on how people write stuff up.

By the way, does the GM know about the Pathfinder neo-ToB "Path of War" stuff in open playtest from Dreamscarred? You have a bunch of ToB stuff listed there, and sometime soon, there will be native Pathfinder versions of that stuff.

[ArcturusV]

Sadly my familiarity with Psychics is Zero. Well except in 2nd edition where the horrible Psychics there had forever scarred me from even wanting to look at DnD psychics ever again.

But the Shugenja got shafted with the low skill points because it was created in an era where WotC though all primary casters had to have 2+ Int skill points (Before things like Beguilers getting, what, 6? And Warmages getting 4?) Which isn't a terrible idea I suppose, why be the mundane skill monkey when you can bend reality over your knee? Granted they also thought "Good in Melee" was equally powerful and worth only having 2+Int (Fighter, Paladin) and were wrong there.

Still the Shugenja isn't bad. The only real pain to it being the two PrCs that it was "Meant to take" being a bit high on requirements, the Maho-Tsukai (Taint and Tainted Spell Requirements) and the Void Disciple (high skill requirements on a low skill chassis). Then again they're both so godawful powerful in their own way that a smart DM wouldn't want you taking them.

[Siltharon]

I actually commented on this in another thread a few minutes ago.
In my campaign setting, a common effect of traumatizing a commoner is to create a level 1 Dread. It isn't an evil class as a result. Go look for a selection of people with PTSD - sexual/child/domestic abuse recovery organizations, survivors of natural disasters, suvivors of wars, etc - and imagine a bunch of those people, with no change in base personality, spontaneously healing from their PTSD caused nightmares and trauma triggers by learning how to project fear psychically. Gee, opens up a lot of character concepts that are good alignmed, doesn't it?

By the way, does the GM know about the Pathfinder neo-ToB "Path of War" stuff in open playtest from Dreamscarred? You have a bunch of ToB stuff listed there, and sometime soon, there will be native Pathfinder versions of that stuff.

Yes ... I've read it with great interested and now I feel bad that I haven't commented on it specifically. I has already given me some good ideas if I decide to play one ... so thank you for sharing your insight :smallsmile:

My dm knows about the neo-ToB I think so he would be very open to using it as soon as it's out ... problem is I don't really want to go with an initiator class since we pretty much got two already (I think the Barbarian wants to take a few levels at 3 or so).

Also thank you on describing the classes to me.

@Biff: That definitely sounds awesome ... I'm gonna check with my dm if I could play a warforged. Maybe make a backstory of being a relic to the past empire ... would be interesting to roleplay anyways.
I'll see if he is fine with it.

edit: also I'm aware that rare psionics don't mean that they are hated but it might attract a lot of attention and that could get problematic (though I'd like to life with that)

[Xerlith]

Okay. So those are some options that I think are fun (I am going to assume all books are open, since you didn't list any):

Melee:

Arcane:

Duskblade3/Paladin2/Knight of the Weave2/Abjurant Champion5/Spellsword1/Knight of the Weave+2/Whatever5 (For example Fist of Raziel)

Duskblade4/Hexblade (or Paladin)2/Suel Arcanamach4/Abjurant Champion5/whatever.

Divine:
Cleric4/Ordained Champion5/Prestige Paladin3/Fist of Raziel 8.
Take Serenity, you're wis-driven now.

Ranged:

Arcane:
Duskblade 5/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Arcane Archer 10

Divine:
Elf Paladin (sub levels)6/Fist of Raziel10/Paladin+4

[Siltharon]

what level would you say those builds work on? Like from what level are they good in what they are supposed to do.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you want to go for a divine archer, you use Cleric or Archivist with DMM: Persist. You make the character some sort of Elf, possibly Snow Elf for no Con penalty. There are entire handbooks dedicated to such builds, but Cleric gets early access to Divine Metamagic, whereas Archivist gets spells from every divine list including Ranger spells but comes online much later. On a Cleric you would use Cloistered Cleric, trade your free Knowledge domain for Knowledge Devotion, and get the Elf and probably Spell domains. Get the feat Otherworldly (PGtF) to get the Outsider creature type, so later on you can use Greater Anyspell for DMM: Persistent Draconic Polymorph into an Arrow Demon.

You would use DMM: Persist with as many as possible from: Divine Favor, Blessed Aim, Elation, Anyspell: Shield, Mass Lesser Vigor, Divine Power, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Holy Star, Stormrage, etc. You would want to pick up levels in Ruathar to qualify for a Seeker of the Misty Isle dip, and probably get a few in Paragnostic Apostle before taking Contemplative for your 11th-20th level. The build is definitely usable at 5th level, you'll probably want Zen Archery so Dex won't be so important, but unless you can use flaws you'll be extremely short on feats for a while. Be able to upgrade your bow yourself, via any of Craft Magic Arms/Armor, Item Familiar, or Ancestral Relic, and make it Elvencraft. It's extremely important to have the ideal weapon properties on your bow to maximize your damage output, you can find the best ones in the Archery Handbook (http://www.brilliantgameologists.com/boards/?topic=642.0).


You can also consider something like Swordsage 1/ Soulknife 2/ Swordsage 2/ Soulbow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2), with Zen Archery you'll use Wis for attack, damage, and AC. You can TWF with the Mind Arrows, though it doesn't actually come online until your first level of Soulbow.


Arcane spellcasting isn't very well suited to archery, it's much better at buffing melee combat. The standard gish builds don't usually come online until level 7-9, same for psionic gish builds.

[Xerlith]

what level would you say those builds work on? Like from what level are they good in what they are supposed to do.

Duskblade is great early on. It's got some serious dmg boost thanks to the Shocking grasp. Later it's there as a solid chassis with full BAB and (sadly) d8 HP.

Cleric is always amazing - as always.

Cleric4/Ordained Champion3/Prestige Paladin3/Fist of Raziel10 with the Ranged Smite feat is also a nice ranged/melee combatant.

[Siltharon]

If you want to go for a divine archer, you use Cleric or Archivist with DMM: Persist. You make the character some sort of Elf, possibly Snow Elf for no Con penalty. There are entire handbooks dedicated to such builds, but Cleric gets early access to Divine Metamagic, whereas Archivist gets spells from every divine list including Ranger spells but comes online much later. On a Cleric you would use Cloistered Cleric, trade your free Knowledge domain for Knowledge Devotion, and get the Elf and probably Spell domains. Get the feat Otherworldly (PGtF) to get the Outsider creature type, so later on you can use Greater Anyspell for DMM: Persistent Draconic Polymorph into an Arrow Demon.

You would use DMM: Persist with as many as possible from: Divine Favor, Blessed Aim, Elation, Anyspell: Shield, Mass Lesser Vigor, Divine Power, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Holy Star, Stormrage, etc. You would want to pick up levels in Ruathar to qualify for a Seeker of the Misty Isle dip, and probably get a few in Paragnostic Apostle before taking Contemplative for your 11th-20th level. The build is definitely usable at 5th level, you'll probably want Zen Archery so Dex won't be so important, but unless you can use flaws you'll be extremely short on feats for a while. Be able to upgrade your bow yourself, via any of Craft Magic Arms/Armor, Item Familiar, or Ancestral Relic, and make it Elvencraft. It's extremely important to have the ideal weapon properties on your bow to maximize your damage output, you can find the best ones in the Archery Handbook (http://www.brilliantgameologists.com/boards/?topic=642.0).


You can also consider something like Swordsage 1/ Soulknife 2/ Swordsage 2/ Soulbow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2), with Zen Archery you'll use Wis for attack, damage, and AC. You can TWF with the Mind Arrows, though it doesn't actually come online until your first level of Soulbow.


Arcane spellcasting isn't very well suited to archery, it's much better at buffing melee combat. The standard gish builds don't usually come online until level 7-9, same for psionic gish builds.

Thank you for those builds ... me very like. I'm gonna ask my dm about it but because we already have a cleric and it's probably to strong/high powered he will say no :/.

Anyways thanks to everybody so far ... you all have helped me a great deal. Heck ... I even looked up classes I've not heard of before :smallwink:.