Best polymorph form for straight attacking?

[killem2]

I have a feeling by the time I reach ECL 8, and I'll be able to persist wraithstrike, i'm still going to be fighting stupid kobolds (with class levels of course).

Even though I hit the touch ac with wraithstrike, these little bastards have a pretty decent touch ac a lot of the times.

Not to mention I'm lucky if I get a 15ft wide corridor to fight in 25% of the time.

I can transform into anything from any of the monster manuals including the monsters of faerun book.

Hydra is my fall back but I don't think I'm going to have lots of room for it. :smallfrown:

[Deaxsa]

pyro/cryohydra

you get 8 aoe attacks... goes a long way to killing mooks.

edit: are you an outsider?

at any rate, there are a couple beatsticks that stick out even just on the SRD. wyverns kick ass, and you'd be able to fly (you even get multiattack as a bonus feat). you could always turn into a manticore(which can complete verbal components, btw) or a fleshraker(not SRD, i know, i know).

edit2: don't forget that as long as your familiar is within 5 feet of you can have it polymorphed as well.. which kicks ass for smaller forms with ranged attacks.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Cave Triceratops (Large size) in Minitatures Handbook gets Trample and a double damage charge attack. So you've got something to use against strong foes, and something to use on groups of weaker enemies. Note that trample itself takes a full-round action, so you cannot combine it with a charge. But you can charge in and destroy one foe, then the next round trample everyone around and trample away, setting up to charge in again the following round. Note trample does not need to move in a straight line, you can snake around and hit anyone you can get to with that double move. It may be worth using Persistent Expeditious Retreat as well with that.

[Piggy Knowles]

Everything mentioned thus far is pretty excellent, and what I would go with, but don't neglect the cave troll, which becomes available to you next level - while it doesn't necessarily excel against mooks in particular, the big boost to Strength should mean a high likelihood of hitting even despite a high AC, and it gets a lot of nice (Ex) boosts.

[Coidzor]

You're mostly in Tiny-to-Small-to-Medium sized tunnels, with maybe the occasional cavern or room, then? Do you have Tunnel-Fighting?

[killem2]

I am a Beguiler as far as creature type goes. http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/mainlist2.pl?name=Beguiler



Is there any spells I could persist that give me a nice booster to attack rolls?? Maybe that would help.

[Lactantius]

Just be a dragon.
Draconic Polymorph, Sor/wiz 5, available at Level 9 for fullcasters.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Just be a dragon.
Draconic Polymorph, Sor/wiz 5, available at Level 9 for fullcasters.

Draconic Polymorph doesn't make you a dragon, it does the same thing as Polymorph but gives you an extra Str +8, Con +2. Plus it's personal-range, so you can Persist it.

For attack bonus, just go with something that has a high Str score. Look to a Polymorph Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=519.0) for great choices, such as a Battlerager Troll (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20070705b&page=3) (Str 28) or a Treant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/treant.htm) (Str 29).

[killem2]

I think I found something after digging for hours through monster books lol.


Beast of Malar Claw Slayer Form Monsters of Faerun p11.

Medium creature, Str 30, Dex 14, Con 20,

Bite + 16 melee, 4 claws + 14 melee Bite 2d6+10, claw 1d6+5 with improved grab.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I think I found something after digging for hours through monster books lol.


Beast of Malar Claw Slayer Form Monsters of Faerun p11.

Medium creature, Str 30, Dex 14, Con 20,

Bite + 16 melee, 4 claws + 14 melee Bite 2d6+10, claw 1d6+5 with improved grab.

That's an alternate form, if you take the form of a Beast of Malar you would take on its natural form. You do not gain its alternate form ability via Polymorph.

[killem2]

awww son of a. Didn't realize that was a shifter.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The Monster Update (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040313a) actually labels it as a Magical Beast (Shapechanger), so the Hunting Panther Form is most likely its natural form. I don't see any mention of what form it switches to when it dies, so there's really no way of knowing which one is actually its natural form, or if it even has one at all.

Battlerager Troll (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20070705b&page=3) is still amazing, though:
Large size, humanoid shape, Str 28, Dex 16, Con 28, +5 natural armor, 2 claws with Rend, a bite, and Pounce.

Also note any attack bonuses are calculated based on your base attack bonus and other effects, you don't adopt the assumed form's base attack, saves, or anything else besides what the spell specifically says you gain. You still use your own stats for everything else.

[killem2]

Also note any attack bonuses are calculated based on your base attack bonus and other effects, you don't adopt the assumed form's base attack, saves, or anything else besides what the spell specifically says you gain. You still use your own stats for everything else.

Yeah that's the reason for the hunt :). It's a bit of an important thing, that I think a lot of the OMG-ZITS-POLYMORPH croud, seems to leave out. :smallsigh:

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

That's why you'd normally make the Fighter a bladerager who destroys everyone more efficiently (and takes the hits for you). But, you want to use ultimate arcane power to be an efficient BSF, so you deal with the limitations.

Greater Invisibility should take away a lot of touch AC unless they can see invis. Other good attack buffs include Bite of the Were[beast], Menacing Tentacles (for more attacks based off your ridiculous strength), and the aforementioned Draconic Polymorph. I assume you have defense and utility covered with stuff like Suppressing Field (CM), Greater Blink, Swift Fly, etc.

You'll eventually want to use a weapon, if only for Greater Mighty Wallop shenanigans. War Troll is a good form for this. Greater Magic Weapon's +5 (buff your CL with stuff like Create Magic Tattoo, Bead of Karma, and Persistent Suffer the Flesh if only to avoid random dispels ruining your day) should also help your to-hit in this case. Since you're an int-based caster without a lot to spend skill points on except spellcraft, knowledge devotion could be quite useful if you're *still* having problems.

[Tvtyrant]

If you do not have spell compendium that the old Savage Species version of Girallon's Blessing is perfect with a troll shape. Get 3 extra arms and have all of them work together to swing a greatclub really, really hard (3x strength mod to damage.)

[Andezzar]

I am a Beguiler as far as creature type goes. http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/mainlist2.pl?name=Beguiler
Are you aware that Beguilers are normally not available for PCs? Have you cleared it with the DM? A Level Adjustment (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_leveladjustment&alpha=L) of +0 (Cohort) means that the creature can only be used as a cohort. In this case the LA is +0.

[Mithril Leaf]

Are you aware that Beguilers are normally not available for PCs? Have you cleared it with the DM? A Level Adjustment (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_leveladjustment&alpha=L) of +0 (Cohort) means that the creature can only be used as a cohort. In this case the LA is +0.

It's been contemplated that that might mean it's intended as a cohort rather than only being a cohort. Rules Quote Please?

[Andezzar]

From the link provided above:
Some creatures' level adjustment entries include the word "(cohort)." Although these creatures may be problematic as PCs, they make good companions for a character who has taken the Leadership feat. Some other creatures aren't intended for use as PCs or cohorts but can become companions through the use of the Improved Familiar feat. In these cases, the level adjustment entry is a dash followed by the words "(Improved Familiar)."

Also it would not make sense for the (cohort) to mean you can take it as a cohort in addition to taking it as a PC, because anything that can become a PC already can become a cohort.
A character can try to attract a cohort of a particular race, class, and alignment.

[Eldariel]

In tunnels, I'd definitely consider forms with a burrow speed. Gets you great mobility, makes you a very hard target for your enemies to hit and negates most of the issue with being too big. Remorhaz is a good example of a solid burrowing beatstick though only having 1 attack is of course a limiting factor for wiping the floor with weaklings.

[Andezzar]

As said before, there are still Evard's menacing tentacles. That's two more attacks. Girallon's Blessing would give another 2 claw attacks. That is more than enough, mehtinks

[bekeleven]

wyverns kick ass, and you'd be able to fly (you even get multiattack as a bonus feat).Polymorph does not grant Sq, such as fast healing, regeneration, bonus feats, skill bonuses, special vision types, scent, or immunities.

On-topic: Look into the Grell from the MM2, especially if you have a way of increasing your reach. It's one of the most deadly aberration forms for melee, at all levels. More to the point, it's medium-sized.

[Karnith]

Polymorph does not grant Sq, such as [...] bonus feats, skill bonuses[...]
Polymorph does grant you racial bonus feats and racial skill bonuses. Polymorph is based on Alter Self, which states (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm):

You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. (Emphasis mine)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

In tunnels, I'd definitely consider forms with a burrow speed. Gets you great mobility, makes you a very hard target for your enemies to hit and negates most of the issue with being too big. Remorhaz is a good example of a solid burrowing beatstick though only having 1 attack is of course a limiting factor for wiping the floor with weaklings.

Taking the form of an Umber Hulk allows you to burrow through solid stone (you can normally only burrow through dirt or sand (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#burrow)). It has a 10 ft. reach, decent stats, and a claw/claw/bite attack routine.

[bekeleven]

Polymorph does grant you racial bonus feats and racial skill bonuses. Polymorph is based on Alter Self, which states (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm):
(Emphasis mine)


It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities. Seems fairly unambiguous.

You do gain the creature's type (RAW is kind of fiddly over whether you gain SQ granted by the type, but I think you do?), but type never comes with bonus feats, except for the occasional martial weapon proficiencies.

[Karnith]

Seems fairly unambiguous.

You do gain the creature's type (RAW is kind of fiddly over whether you gain SQ granted by the type, but I think you do?), but type never comes with bonus feats, except for the occasional martial weapon proficiencies.
I fail to see what the section of rules that you quote has to do with the situation at hand. Racial skill bonuses and racial bonus feats are not special qualities (you will fail to notice them under the listing of a creature's special qualities), nor are they related to type. They are explicitly gained with Alter Self and all spells that are based on it, including Polymorph, as physicial qualities of the creature (such as mundane movement modes, natural armor bonus, and natural weapons).

[killem2]

Are you aware that Beguilers are normally not available for PCs? Have you cleared it with the DM? A Level Adjustment (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_leveladjustment&alpha=L) of +0 (Cohort) means that the creature can only be used as a cohort. In this case the LA is +0.

That has been cleared months ago.

[Andezzar]

It has? Where?

[killem2]

It has? Where?



:smallconfused:

I'm not sure what you mean. Do you want me to show you the exchange between me and my DM?

He was cool with me playing the lil guy as a character, wasn't hard, we already have a petal psion as well. :smallcool:

[Andezzar]

Ah OK. I thought you meant the discussion whether allowing such creatures were RAW. If you already have an agreement with your DM, disregard.

TBH I find those creatures much better suited for PCs than a Buomman character for example.

[killem2]

Ah OK. I thought you meant the discussion whether allowing such creatures were RAW. If you already have an agreement with your DM, disregard.

TBH I find those creatures much better suited for PCs than a Buomman character for example.

DOH!

/facepalm I'm an idiot lol :smallsigh:

[Aharon]

Somebody please refresh my knowledge/correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't polymorph inherit the size limitation (within one size category of the original form) from Alter Self? Given that the character is a beguiler, that would mean many of the proposed creatures aren't available.

[Lactantius]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lactantius View Post
Just be a dragon.
Draconic Polymorph, Sor/wiz 5, available at Level 9 for fullcasters.
Draconic Polymorph doesn't make you a dragon, it does the same thing as Polymorph but gives you an extra Str +8, Con +2. Plus it's personal-range, so you can Persist it.

I doubt so.
Draconic Polymorph allows to pick up a true dragon from the MM with the correspdoning hit dice.
For example, a caster with 12 HD may polymorph into a very young silver dragon. With 16 HD, he may polymorph into a juvenile silver dragon.
He gains more-than average ability scores (defined by the spell).
There is a good reason why this spell is found in a splatbook called Draconomicon, don't ya think so?

[Eldariel]

Somebody please refresh my knowledge/correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't polymorph inherit the size limitation (within one size category of the original form) from Alter Self? Given that the character is a beguiler, that would mean many of the proposed creatures aren't available.

Highly contested point, falls under "ask the DM"-territory.

[Aharon]

@Eldariel
Thanks, I wasn't aware there was still discussion, I just took this table (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=1k5h38s6bbse2hvrd8m0g7bgf2&topic=3479.msg108259#msg108259) by Surreal over at BG to be the consensus position on how the spell works.

@Lactantius
you can do that with standard polymorph (dragon is among the allowed creature types). Draconic Polymorph works as described above.

[Menzath]

I doubt so.
Draconic Polymorph allows to pick up a true dragon from the MM with the correspdoning hit dice.
For example, a caster with 12 HD may polymorph into a very young silver dragon. With 16 HD, he may polymorph into a juvenile silver dragon.
He gains more-than average ability scores (defined by the spell).
There is a good reason why this spell is found in a splatbook called Draconomicon, don't ya think so?

Wasn't this spell and it's other versions reprinted in races of the dragon, with it being set as to what type/size of dragon you can become?

Oh and spell compendium has one of the versions in the Lists in back but not the actual spell description anywhere in the book, not even in the *fixed* reprint, bah lazy WoTC.

[Karnith]

Wasn't this spell and it's other versions reprinted in races of the dragon, with it being set as to what type/size of dragon you can become?
There are the Dragonshape spells that appear in Player's Handbook II and Dragon Magic, which use the Polymorph subschool rules and are each keyed to a particular dragon form. They are completely separate from Draconic Polymorph, which is basically Polymorph with +8 Str, +2 Con, and a higher HD cap.

Draconic Polymorph is so-called because it was developed by dragons, not because it is restricted to only taking the shape of dragons.

[Eldariel]

@Eldariel
Thanks, I wasn't aware there was still discussion, I just took this table (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=1k5h38s6bbse2hvrd8m0g7bgf2&topic=3479.msg108259#msg108259) by Surreal over at BG to be the consensus position on how the spell works.

Basically, the language of the spell is unclear on whether the changes to the size limitations are in addition to or instead of, and what exactly is the kind of category they replace. RAI it probably should match Metamorphosis in that regard, but RAW is horribly unclear due to how it's written.

[killem2]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a

A form's Hit Dice refers to its racial Hit Dice, as noted in Part Two.

The assumed form's size can be anything from Fine to Colossal.