Characters biting off more then they can chew

[Toutatis]

Hello everyone on the playground, I seem to have an issue with my current gaming group and I turn to you all for some helpful advice.

The Problem
As of recent my party (level 13, Pathfinder) needs an incantation in order to lower the shield surrounding the city the BBG is currently located in, the information is known only to a very powerful Mountain Drake (3.5 Draconomican) since in the story the written texts have been destroyed by precious players unknowingly. The MD (how I shall refer to the Mountain Drake from this point forward) declared he shall give them the information he knows in exchange for a powerful item from the elemental plane of Earth. The item and obtaining it was well within their level requirements (basically a spawning gem from which earth elementals were created) but one player wanted to up the ante by proclaiming "Would you take anything else from there in exchange for not only the information but also more power/items/knowledge/etc."

Because this is a dragon-type we are talking about almost akin to greed of the chromatic dragons I matched his ante by saying the MD will also accept the crown of the Earth King (Basically my version of a elder Elemental on steroids, but if done right was completely doable for their level). I tossed out there if they went for the crown instead that they might cause some issues with Plane of Earth which got them to thinking maybe it wasn't their brightest idea. So after some debate (the crown idea still seemed the best in their minds) they proclaimed they were going to Sigil and then things became... interesting.

The cleric of the group made a Knowledge: Planes check and realized that there was an powerful being in Sigil (Yes I speak of the Lady of Pain) and they might just go there to steal from her... yeah. So they ask the MD if they could obtain some fro the LoP would they get more, well, everything in return. Because the MD is a greedy S.O.B. he agreed to this and now my party is in Sigil talking about attracting the LoP's attention and swiping something of her's in broad daylight before running like a flock of chickens with their heads cut off.

The Core Problem
I know who the LoP is, I know what she is capable of and worst of all none of my players seem to think this is a horrible idea. I have presented them various ways out of this suicide run as it were, but they seem determined to at least attempt it. I don't know if I should write up stats for the LoP (since that is sacrilege in many ways), pull something out of nothing so they don't get killed off or just DM-magic my way out of this. I'm not looking for an answer per say but at least a few ideas or suggestions on how to approach this situation... cause to be honest if they try it I think I will have to deal with them in the classic LoP way.

[Kalirren]

...if they try it I think I will have to deal with them in the classic LoP way.

Yeah, pretty much. There's a reason why the classic approach is classic.

[Zanos]

Pissing of the Lady of Pain should be fairly easy Kn: Plane check. If you use the RAW Knowledge rules, it should be an "easy" question if not common knowledge, and the highest DC should be 10.

Have someone roll a Kn: Planes check, and have them remember that pretty much every single entity that messed with the Lady ended up dying horribly, even gods. You should probably remind them of that.

If they persist, they die. Your PC's should be smarter than to go hunting for demigods and archdemons when they aren't ready for it, and they would (likely) die if they did those things, too.

[Tim Proctor]

I think this is super simple, have them witness the LoP's shadow flaying people, have people talk about the god she killed, etc.

If they want to persist, I would think about letting them do it, and once they give it to the drake and he's about to divulge everything have the LoP show up and instagib the drake for having the item that belongs to her.

OR if they persist, TPK them, but before you do that get the Ghostwalk and have ghost character sheets for them and have a ghost campaign.

[Quellian-dyrae]

Pissing of the Lady of Pain should be fairly easy Kn: Plane check. If you use the RAW Knowledge rules, it should be an "easy" question if not common knowledge, and the highest DC should be 10.

Have someone roll a Kn: Planes check, and have them remember that pretty much every single entity that messed with the Lady ended up dying horribly, even gods. You should probably remind them of that.

If they persist, they die. Your PC's should be smarter than to go hunting for demigods and archdemons when they aren't ready for it, and they would (likely) die if they did those things, too.

Yeah, the big question here is, are the players aware of just how powerful the Lady of Pain is? If she's been presented as just "a powerful being" and their quest-giver has agreed to reward the mission, they may be thinking this is a legitimate mission. This is especially likely if it was something like, "I make a Knowledge check to see if there are other planar lords we might be able to rob for this guy" "Oh well you've heard about this 'Lady of Pain' person in Sigil".

Now, if the Knowledge check already informed them that she's basically an overdeity, or the players know who she is and want to try this anyway, well, what can you do?

[Brookshw]

A shadow falls, everyone dies.

But what could they possibly steal? She has things? Okay, assuming they could steal anything she controls all portals out of sigil, they can't leave if she doesn't want them to. And how to attract her? Smack a dabus? I'd give them a knowledge planes to know this way leads to tpk. I feel anything less is just hand holding.

[Toutatis]

Originally Posted by Zanos
Pissing of the Lady of Pain should be fairly easy Kn: Plane check. If you use the RAW Knowledge rules, it should be an "easy" question if not common knowledge, and the highest DC should be 10.

Have someone roll a Kn: Planes check, and have them remember that pretty much every single entity that messed with the Lady ended up dying horribly, even gods. You should probably remind them of that.

If they persist, they die. Your PC's should be smarter than to go hunting for demigods and archdemons when they aren't ready for it, and they would (likely) die if they did those things, too.

Oh the cleric got a '34' on Knowledge:Planes check to see what information he would have on the LoP, at that point I thought it was rather effective to read them her description from the book almost directly leaving out only a few key points (the fact she controls the portals and what-not since they haven't really tackled plane travel yet/been off the Material Plane)


Originally Posted by Bookshw
But what could they possibly steal? She has things? Okay, assuming they could steal anything she controls all portals out of sigil, they can't leave if she doesn't want them to. And how to attract her? Smack a dabus? I'd give them a knowledge planes to know this way leads to tpk. I feel anything less is just hand holding.

A necklace was believed by them to be the ideal thing to steal... and I haven't a clue to be honest. The only thing they have manged to do thus far to attract any kind of attention was the cavalier riding around on his huge drunken dire wolf (they were both drunk) and that was only by the town guard. Knowing them something with lots of fire...


Originally posted by Quellian-dyrae
Yeah, the big question here is, are the players aware of just how powerful the Lady of Pain is? If she's been presented as just "a powerful being" and their quest-giver has agreed to reward the mission, they may be thinking this is a legitimate mission. This is especially likely if it was something like, "I make a Knowledge check to see if there are other planar lords we might be able to rob for this guy" "Oh well you've heard about this 'Lady of Pain' person in Sigil".

I think that is how this whole issue started off to be honest... lets face it if a group of players wants to take on a larger quest-goal you can't stop them outright without kind of railroading. But I might have to to keep them alive and breathing.

[Flickerdart]

I think that is how this whole issue started off to be honest... lets face it if a group of players wants to take on a larger quest-goal you can't stop them outright without kind of railroading. But I might have to to keep them alive and breathing.
There's bound to be a fellow in Sigil selling contingent true resurrections for a mint. Whether or not he fully delivers is up to you, and might make for an interesting mini-arc.

[Mnemnosyne]

First off, getting the Lady of Pain's attention is not easy in the first place.

Second off, the authorities in Sigil will not take kindly to someone trying; the Harmonium will arrest them and they will be convicted of...something. Trying to get the Lady's attention may, itself, be a crime, but if not, at the very minimum it would be considered some level of 'disturbing the peace.'

Therefore, they shouldn't make it anywhere near getting her attention before the Harmonium arrests them (with whatever force is necessary; they're a massive multi-planar organization - whatever resources it takes to bring the players in, they have) and the Guvners convict them.

If they somehow manage to get her attention without getting the authorities' attention (one thing I can think of is to quietly go around murdering dabus until they've killed enough to piss her off) then they should simply die, or get mazed. If you want to be 'nice' and let them keep playing (maybe), they get mazed. It is theoretically possible to escape from a maze, and I think there's a handful of people that have done so historically, so if you want to be nice, there's a way out.

If they do get mazed, though, and manage to escape, they can pretty much count on being barred from Sigil from then on; portals just won't work for them anymore because the Lady chooses not to permit their entry. Either that or if they're dumb enough to try to go back, they just die.

[BWR]

I can see it happening something like this.

Step 1.
The group has barely heard of the Lady and think she sounds like a good mark.

Step 2. a
They travel to Sigil and asking around about the Lady. The average citizen will react with fear-tinged amazement and tell ask in Cant-garbled Common if they are completely daft and tell them to shut up or else they'll attract her attention.
If they persist they will notice people start giving them wide berth. Perhaps some kindly soul will come up, ask them what the intercoursing penguin they're doing and clue them in to Aoskar, the flayings, the Mazes and how She basically tells all the gods of the Multiverse to get bent.
Possibly even, as others mentioned, show them what happens to some crazy sod who runs around trying to convert people to woirship of the Lady.

Step 2 b
If they are smart, they cast Divination, Commune, Contact Other Plane or something. In the case of Divination, the answer they will get is something along the lines of "If you are stupid enough to do this, death is the least painful of the outcomes". Communes and COP will only give you yes/no answers, but consider giving them a freebie "Can we succeed? No possible way"


By this point any reasonably smart group will have realized that the DM is encouraging them very strongly to not do that. Heck, worst comes to worst, tell them straight that it won't work. If you don't want your cmapaign to end that way, give them some Word of God.

Step 3.
Finally, if they don't take the hint and you don't want to spoil it, let them try. Explain in loving detail the looks of terror on the faces of Sigilians as they run for cover when the PCs start trying their stuff. Have balor or a pit fiend look incredulously and then teleport away with a startled curse. Then, if you are nice, just flay the PCs (again, loving detail of the pain and sight of the cuts forming, the blood welling up). If you're not so nice, Maze them and let them work trying to get out until the players give up in despair. Once they give up, you can reveal there is a way out, but they can't find it, because that's how the Mazes work..

[Ketiara]

Its easy (though ive never been a DM) if its made clear by every means short of meta... And unlucky kn Rolls doesnt count... If you have your back clear regarding the warnings NOT to take this fight - then by all means wipe out the party.. That will teach them.. (Speaking from experience that tpk I had was worth it, rp wise respect wise etc... It had to be done)

Edit: and that tpk has to hurt... No easy res or divine intervention... Otherwise it's expected nxt time they walk into stuff like that again.

2nd edit: you can even go as far as to ask if they are playing their chars according to their personality... I mean how can a person THAT suicidal live this long in the first place!?! Evolution has to have done its part at this point. (I take it they are 18-25 years old :) )

[Maginomicon]

Have them watch this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnMzDyIJT2g). This will explain everything without you having to give anything up.

Also, there is in-fact a prince among earth elementals in one of the Dragon Magazines statted-out (Archomentals, Dragon Magazine #347 page 28 and #353 page 42).

[Zanos]

Have them watch this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnMzDyIJT2g). This will explain everything without you having to give anything up.

Also, there is in-fact a prince among earth elementals in one of the Dragon Magazines statted-out (Archomentals, Dragon Magazine #347 page 28 and #353 page 42).
I found it moderately amusing that the maker of the video thinks that the tarrasque is nearly impossible to kill. Even compared to other CR 20 monsters in the monster manuals it's lackluster.

On topic, though, mazing them could be a good plan. No save, you're mazed, might teach the players a lesson and could set up a half decent adventure.

[rexx1888]

bring spare character sheets, then let them do as they please and kill them when its appropriate. Make sure there are dice rolls, just load up on her dice and crank all her stats. Fact is, if youre stupid enough to try this, you dont deserve dm intervention to save your life. Its "DnD" not "players can do any stupid arse thing they want and live to tell about it" ...

[Seto]

I found it moderately amusing that the maker of the video thinks that the tarrasque is nearly impossible to kill. Even compared to other CR 20 monsters in the monster manuals it's lackluster.

Well, technically it IS nearly impossible to kill. I mean, kill permanently (you need a Wish effect, which you don't need for any other monster). But not as hard to defeat as it is to kill.

[Evolved Shrimp]

I second Mnemosyne's and BWR's proposals - give them a decent chance to recognize their folly, and if they insist...

Just two additions:

One, do not stat the Lady - that's not what she is. By definition, the Lady is the being which is all-powerful within Sigil. There is simply no way to stand up to her - no spell resistance, no saving throws, no opposed checks, no immunities. If she mazes you, you are mazed - period.

Two, your players might have a problem understanding what, "powerful" means. They might think that a "powerful" being is like the Boss character's they meet - more dangerous than individually party members, but definitely defeatable by the party with the right approach.

If this is the case, you could help them in their understanding by introducing them to beings that could kill them just like that, not as opponents but as encounters. They should be able to find out that one has to avoid attracting the ire - and preferably any attention - of some beings.

[Darcand]

I would let them get her attention and then make an example out of one of them. Have her turn slowly to them, make eye contact, and flay someone alive. Give them an accomplishable Will save vs dying of shock as their skin is ripped off, then 6d6 damage and 4d6 wisdom damage.