DM challenge: NPCs telling "white lies". How will your players react?

[Jon_Dahl]

First of all, I'd like to say that this is all in good fun :smallsmile:

Whenever someone tells a lie, a sense motive vs. bluff opposed check is required. But what if an NPC tells an innocent lie in an ordinary situation and gets caught, but refuses to tell the truth? How will your players react if you simply announce that the NPC is lying and leave it to that? Just to make myself clear, here are a few examples:

- A barmaid brings pints of water to the PCs and tells that they are out of ale and wine. This is a lie, because they are just saving all the ale and wine for a big wedding. The barmaid has a horrible bluff modifier, and doesn't want to tell the truth because she will be fired if she did.
- The PCs buy some arrows. The fletcher says that the arrows are at half the price because his business is flourishing. This is a lie, because he just wants to oust some local competitor out of the market. He won't admit the truth.
- A city guard sergeant asks where the PCs are going. He says it's just a routine check. It's a lie. In fact, the city guard mistook one of the PCs as his long-lost childhood friend, but doesn't want to admit that to strange civilians.

In all these cases you simply announce that he/she was lying if one (or more) of the sense motive checks succeeds.

How will your players react?

I would like you, the DM, to try this, and tell the results in this thread. It's very easy to implement in any game. Please take my challenge! I will try it too if at least two people accept my challenge.

Think of it as the Return of Gazebo.

[Czin]

As the PCs in my group generally speaking aren't sociopaths they accept these things as part of life like a regular person would and move on.

[Silva Stormrage]

It depends on the situation for my players.

1st one: They won't care and won't bother rolling sense motive and if they succeed they wont press the issue.

2nd: They will not buy the arrows and they will flee the shop. They will assume that he is trying to sell them cursed merchandise (They are incredibly paranoid about items and wealth like most pcs)

3rd: They won't press the issue.


Mostly my players are incredibly paranoid whenever it comes to wealth or money or items. Anything else they will probably ignore. :smalltongue:

[Tim Proctor]

Turn murderhobos and loot the place.

[Emperor Tippy]

- A barmaid brings pints of water to the PCs and tells that they are out of ale and wine. This is a lie, because they are just saving all the ale and wine for a big wedding. The barmaid has a horrible bluff modifier, and doesn't want to tell the truth because she will be fired if she did.
Diplomacy, Intimidate, or mind reading magic of one kind or another.


- The PCs buy some arrows. The fletcher says that the arrows are at half the price because his business is flourishing. This is a lie, because he just wants to oust some local competitor out of the market. He won't admit the truth.
See above, and until they learn the truth they are unwilling to use the arrows.


- A city guard sergeant asks where the PCs are going. He says it's just a routine check up. It's a lie. In fact, the city guard mistook one of the PCs as his long-lost childhood friend, but doesn't want to admit that to strange civilians.

See above, combined with a number of divination's to ensure that nothing untoward is occurring.

People lie all of the time but adventurers survive because of paranoia.

That "water" could be poison (granted, I can't really remember the last time I saw a PC actually eat food that the party didn't create with magic).

Those arrows could have small pieces of them broken off to use to target divination's against the PC's. Or their shafts could be lead lined with a PAO monster inside and a Craft Contingent dispel set to remove the PAO at a specific time.

The guard showing specific interest in the PC's could mean that an important entity or faction is interested in the PC's, which is something that needs to be investigated with all do haste.

[Grim Portent]

Diplomacy, Intimidate, or mind reading magic of one kind or another.


See above, and until they learn the truth they are unwilling to use the arrows.



See above, combined with a number of divination's to ensure that nothing untoward is occurring.

People lie all of the time but adventurers survive because of paranoia.

That "water" could be poison (granted, I can't really remember the last time I saw a PC actually eat food that the party didn't create with magic).

Those arrows could have small pieces of them broken off to use to target divination's against the PC's. Or their shafts could be lead lined with a PAO monster inside and a Craft Contingent dispel set to remove the PAO at a specific time.

The guard showing specific interest in the PC's could mean that an important entity or faction is interested in the PC's, which is something that needs to be investigated with all do haste.

You have to love PC paranoia. Though I feel mine are somewhat lacking in that regard. My players dismissed the idea that an NPC was a vampire just because they saw him in sunlight. Pfft, as if a vampire nobleman couldn't get around that with a little alchemy. Although the amulet of eternal youth he had may have thrown them off the scent.

I suspect the responses they would have had to the situations would be something like:

Barmaid: We have no ale I'm afraid, would water be okay?
PCs: Do you need help finding someone to buy it from? We could help you with that.

Merchant: My arrows are half price, business is doing well and I like the extra custom it brings.
PCs: Well in that case would you be interested in sorting out a supply deal with our mercenary group? We're recruiting and a cheap source of arrows would help us recruit archers.

Guard: Oh it's just a routine check. Sorry to trouble you.
PCs: (OOC) Well clearly he's trying to find criminals of some sort. I ask him if he needs help locating any wanted men.

Far too trusting in general my roleplaying group. They even tried to negotiate with a genocidal were-rat. Mad the whole lot of them. I can't remember a single time they rolled sense motive.

[Coidzor]

You have to love PC paranoia. Though I feel mine are somewhat lacking in that regard. My players dismissed the idea that an NPC was a vampire just because they saw him in sunlight. Pfft, as if a vampire nobleman couldn't get around that with a little alchemy. Although the amulet of eternal youth he had may have thrown them off the scent.

Of course, the minute they start to just accept these little white lies the DM then hits them with something nasty because they've gotten sloppy and don't examine everything.

It's like not immediately ganking any attractive women that start coming onto them. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNAk39Jm88Q)

[Mithril Leaf]

Diplomacy, Intimidate, or mind reading magic of one kind or another.


See above, and until they learn the truth they are unwilling to use the arrows.



See above, combined with a number of divination's to ensure that nothing untoward is occurring.

People lie all of the time but adventurers survive because of paranoia.

That "water" could be poison (granted, I can't really remember the last time I saw a PC actually eat food that the party didn't create with magic).

Those arrows could have small pieces of them broken off to use to target divination's against the PC's. Or their shafts could be lead lined with a PAO monster inside and a Craft Contingent dispel set to remove the PAO at a specific time.

The guard showing specific interest in the PC's could mean that an important entity or faction is interested in the PC's, which is something that needs to be investigated with all do haste.

To be fair, all of these could be nice opportunities. If there's one thing that PCs are more than paranoid, it's opportunist. For example, poisoned water? Save it for the next assassination after trying it on a trapmonkey or the Binder. PAO'd monsters make for great Domination slaves, since they won't have the advantage of prebuffs. And what do cults have lots of? Cult loot of course!

[Slipperychicken]

Remember that PCs can't "choose" whether or not to roll Sense Motive; the roll happens every time an appropriate situation comes up, much like Knowledge checks do. It's your duty as a GM to make sure that roll happens, and the players are notified of the results. And before you argue about deluding yourself, "The target wants to believe you" is represented with a -5 on the Sense Motive roll, not automatic failure.


Pfft, as if a vampire nobleman couldn't get around that with a little alchemy. Although the amulet of eternal youth he had may have thrown them off the scent.

That situation calls for an appropriate knowledge check the moment the players say "He's not a vampire because he went out in the sun".

[Jon_Dahl]

Remember that PCs can't "choose" whether or not to roll Sense Motive; the roll happens every time an appropriate situation comes up, much like Knowledge checks do. It's your duty as a GM to make sure that roll happens, and the players are notified of the results. And before you argue about deluding yourself, "The target wants to believe you" is represented with a -5 on the Sense Motive roll, not automatic failure.


Thank you for pointing this out. Whenever there's a lie, there's also a Sense Motive roll. There's no ifs or buts about it. The penalties and bonuses are arguable, mais c'est la vie. Any lie plus a successful Sense Motive roll mean that the DM must declare the NPC is outright lying.

[Story]

I'm not sure how I'd even get into the first two situations. As for the third, I'd probably get paranoid and investigate. Especially if it was the town where we killed a bunch of policeman a couple months back.

[Fibinachi]

Thank you for pointing this out. Whenever there's a lie, there's also a Sense Motive roll. There's no ifs or buts about it. The penalties and bonuses are arguable, mais c'est la vie. Any lie plus a successful Sense Motive roll mean that the DM must declare the NPC is outright lying.

Not necessarily.

The DM could declare that "Something is a bit odd about this", and go by the hunch rules. For instance, if I was the DM, I'd do that in the first bit - ("You know, she's bringing you water, but you are fairly sure that group of mercenaries over there are having ale. That's a bit odd).

When you succeed on sense motive checks, you see through a bluff or prove unlikely to go along with it or figure out that something is a bit off here. The DM doesn't just have to go "They are lying" and leave that as the only possible amount of information. That's... that's kind of being a **** to your players, because they expect paranoia and betrayals, and you string them along by providing mathematically correct answers.
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Fer'instance, that fletcher. If I just go "He is lying", they'll obviously and immediately start to wonder if he's selling them cursed goods, or trying to trick them, or if the arrows are of poor quality, or if he has been hired by someone to make them suffer. And, well, all he's doing is trying to outcompete another guy.

"He seems really keen on offering you half price for his arrows, talking up their quality and going on about special offers. Maybe he's trying to get you to come back and buy even more later" is a much better answer than "He is lying". Sense motive tells gives a character a fair amount of information, not just a three word answer from the DM (Or, at least, I think so!)
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Anyway, my players would burn down the town, salt the earth, then flamestrike the salt. They're a little worried about "Lies".

[ArcturusV]

I've used this before in a few situations, here's how it's gone:

Standard Campaign:

Players are less "paranoid" than "intrigued". They instantly think that if I called out something, even as minor as "Oh yeah, you're looking hot tonight" when someone is thing "Ug, you're fat and take a bath!" that it's a call to a quest line or some sort of adventure scene. And sometimes it is. Sometimes it isn't but I'll turn it into one if there's something that strikes my fancy about it or if I'm playing off the players and what they're talking about OOC as they try to puzzle things out. Almost always in some grandiose plot far beyond just politeness that is the source of lies like that. But I've not really had players go "OMG! It's a trap!" and run away the first time they make a sense motive check (Which I admit my players typically don't invest enough into).

An example that actually came from a 4th edition game I ran recently (As I do mine with RP bases as well as tactical combat xP): The party bluffed this nobleman who was in the Undercity hunting down a monster, in that they were also nobles going at the same purpose. He noted they were underequipped for such an adventure (True), and that he'd lead them to safety, a warm meal, and join forces with them later on to hunt the monster (False, he wanted the glory of the kill himself and mostly wanted to find out what clues they may have had and keep them busy resting while he got the head). Not quite a white lie, but he didn't really mean any harm to them. He intended to keep a fellow noblewoman and her entourage out of danger as befit his code.

Player detects the Lie, and instantly assumes that this Nobleman is Evil (He wasn't) and possibly in league with another plot involving a noble in the city that one of the players wanted to, and I quote, "Atomic Elbow Drop straight to the nuts". But they decide to go along with it because they know better and can ambush the ambusher. So they make plans to ditch their "noblemen and entourage" disguises as they exit the monster infested undercity and don their armor and weapons instead as they approach this lord's estate, changing in his garden (... seemed backwards to me to, but that was their logic). All the while the players are talking about how this guy is obviously evil, going to ambush them, and in league with Lord Martinez and how they might capture and torture him for information, etc, etc, etc.

So I decided to pull out the DM standard poisoning, turn the "Lunch" into a fight, though with different reasons than what they were supposing. Lunch comes, poisoned food and drink with a sleep poison. Everyone but the one guy who's kind of a moron with a "I'm the star" complex fails their saves and passes out while cursing their host for "selling out to Lord Martinez". Elf, rather than try to wake up his friends (Despite me telling him it was possible) decides he wants to solo the encounter instead. Gets his ass beat down. Because they mentioned they were wanted by Lord Martinez (in a way) during the fight, he sells their unconscious asses to the Evil Lord because, hell, why not curry favor with the big man in the region?

When I play "Horror" or "Gritty Campaigns":

Anytime anyone makes a sense motive check against a lie? It's like they instantly got a 60' avoidance zone around the NPC in question. I usually have them so on edge and mistrustworthy that even a simple lie like a hooker trying to hit on the ugly SoB for money, turns into "OMG! EVIL! RUN!".