[3.5] Need help making a Bard Gish

[macdaddy]

I've decided that the best way to work with my existing party is to play a bard. The party is quite large (2 barbarian brothers, 1 spiked chain dwarf tripper fighter, 1 dwarf cleric, 1 mystic theurge, an Elf Rogue, and a gnome Druid)

I was thinking a Bard would be a good way to help out the party, AND I would still like to do stuff in combat other than "tra-la-la". :)

A Bard archer seems doomed to failure. It just requires TOO many feats to become an archer and without bonus damage dice, it just doesn't do much from a dmg perspective.

The Rules:
core races only, Core SRD, All completes, limited UA (most ACF's are allowed except abrupt jaunt, no paragon classes). He has also allowed the Song of the Heart from Eberon. Anything outside of that is pretty much off limits (no dragonfire, no words of creation, etc). I MAY be able to get snowflake wardance, but wasn't too keen on it.

I have for stats: (in any order I choose)
10, 13, 14, 14, 14, 18

Now how to build my bard? This is where I need the most help.

By looking at it, I definitely want at least 8 levels of bard. That way I can have inspire courage with up to +4 (+2 from levels, +1 from song of the heart, +1 from inspirational boost).

At that point, I am unsure of what to do. Hexblade? Virtuouso/sublime chord?

Standard Bard 8, Virtuoso 2, Sublime chord 2, Virtuoso 8?
It loses a lot of BAB for higher level spells.

[Piggy Knowles]

Hmm... Bard 8/Abjurant Champion 2/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion +3/Eldritch Knight 5 gives you +16 BAB, 9th-level spells and relatively solid inspire courage, without requiring any non-approved sources. That could be a fairly straightforward option for you.

[Xerlith]

Bard8/Swiftblade9/Abjurant Champion3

You lose only 3 caster levels, have 18 BAB, need effectively one spell to be combat-ready. Grab Slippers of Battledancing, have fun.

If you need an arcane caster that still can be a frontliner...
Well, let's see.

Fighter2/Wizard4/Prestige Bard6/Abjurant Champion5/Spellsword3

BAB 16, 8th level spells, Bardic music. Gish. Of sorts.

[Snowbluff]

We should have a Haste party, and invite all of the SuperBouncies. Maybe Bard10/SublimeChord1/Swiftblade9?

I would ask for Metamagic Song from the Races of Stone.

[A_S]

Make it Bard 9/Swiftblade 1/SC 1/Swiftblade +9 for Time Stop fun, or Bard 9/Swiftblade 1/SC 2/Swiftblade +8 for an extra level of casting, I'd say.

Still, WotC online stuff isn't on the source whitelist, so Piggy's build is looking pretty good within that ruleset. Pity it doesn't advance IC more, but Fochlucan Lyrist is the only class that advances BAB, casting, and IC at a decent rate all at once, and that's a nightmare to qualify for without Incarnum.

[Norin]

Easy build:
Bard 20.
Silverbrow.
DFI.
Crystal echoblade.
Stack inspire courage bonuses.
Snowflake wardance.

could make a ok bard "gish" without prc'ing out too.

[macdaddy]

sorry Norin, no DFI. Its doubly excluded (1. dragon magic is not an available source, 2. I called it out in the OP as being unavailable in case people didn't know where it came from)

However, I agree that going straight bard would be "ok".

As for Snowflake wardance, I have heard conflicting views on it. I've been told the best way to use it is with TWF because it just adds plusses to hit and must be used with a 1-handed weapon (thus non-optimal PA results). So while its gives lots of bonuses to hit, I'm not sure how useful overall it is. Perhaps Norin or someone else could help me out there?

Swiftblade - I will need to check with the GM if this is allowed. Otherwise taking dodge/mobility would be worthless... Curious though: Why is swiftblade so good? Don't you have to move to get all the benefits, which would negate full attacks until 9th level swiftblade?

Otherwise:
Bard 8/Abjurant Champion 2/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion +3/XXX
seems to be the best available build.

What about feats?
Melodic casting seems very necessary
Knowledge devotion seems highly useful
Song of the heart is practically mandatory
Obviously anything for a prestige class....

Other than that, I don't know. Arcane strike might not be that great without a large number of daily spells. No idea what else to take.

[Norin]

Sorry, premature reply before reading op. :smallannoyed:

[Xerlith]

Curious though: Why is swiftblade so good? Don't you have to move to get all the benefits, which would negate full attacks until 9th level swiftblade?


Simple.

You add your Charisma to your initiative. You get to cast Haste as a free action, get (Ex) Concealment against attacks and single-target spells, (Ex) Freedom of Movement and of course (Ex) haste effect. On top of timestopping as a free action. And obtaining one standard action more. The whole class is made of awesome for a combatant.
The bonus to your movement modes and +2d6 damage are only the icing on the cake.
Of course, if you want to utilize it to the fullest, you can, say, dip Cloistered Cleric for Travel Devotion. BOOM, 80ft of movement as a swift action, baby.

[Snowbluff]

Xer, honey, it's Cha to Init. :smalltongue:

[Xerlith]

Oooops. Brain fart. Was still thinking about the 2d6 skirmish and somehow my brain lagged into writing "damage". Of course it's initiative. *headdesks*

But that reminds me about... SLIPPERS OF BATTLEDANCING.

Core item for a swiftbard. :F

[gorfnab]

Melee- Bard 8/ Paladin of Freedom 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 3
Ranged- Bard 8/ Arcane Archer 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Ruathar 3

[Manly Man]

If he allows Tome of Battle, you can add in a few levels of either Crusader or Warblade and take Song of the White Raven, which lets your Crusader and Warblade levels stack with Bard for determining your Inspire Courage effects. Go for a bunch of White Raven maneuvers, most likely with a secondary focus on Devoted Spirit if you're a Crusader, or Diamond Mind and Iron Heart if you're a Warblade.

Then again, if he's not allowing stuff like what you've said, he's also probably the sort to lay claim to Tome of Battle being 'broken' and is terribly adamant about it. :smallannoyed:

[macdaddy]

gofnarb, how does that arcane archer build work? My understanding is that ranged builds usually suck because they cannot any damage boost. Doing d6+5 twice per round is kind of poor compared to the fighter or barbarian doing 2d6 + 7 to 12 for two whacks.

Also as an elf, I'd have fewer feats. To get into archer at 9th I'd have to take pb shot, precise shot and wf(longbow) out of the gate, then rapid shot at 9th. That doesn't leave room for melodic casting or song of the heart (i guess you can give up fascinate for that).
In addition with my stats, i would either have a 20 Dex and 14 charisma start boosts going to char, or a 16 dex and 18 charisma with start boosts going to dex

I'd really like to make an effective archer, but i have trouble seeing how that build is effective until 12th level or so

[Captnq]

So you want to be a bard, well it might help if you have some weapons.

So when playing a bard, there is only one weapon you want. An elven-crafted Lute-Bow.

Now the bow itself should be made out of live wood, raising the cost of the weapon by 125 gp. The reason being that this not only give you more options for casting spells on your lute, but it also can slowly repair itself should it ever get damaged.

Elvencraft Shortbow: +300 gp (Mwk +300 gp)
Lute-bow: 250 gp (Mwk +300 gp) (+125 gp)

Now, you may be tempted to use the instrument blade. It’s a hidden weapon so you can keep it concealed, but the problem is that when you use it to fight, you suffer a -2 penalty. This is common to all hidden weapons. Now, you can take advantage of it if you choose to make it out of pandemonic silver. With a flick of the wrist, it can pop out, and because that counts as “drawing” your weapon, it will cause a sonic mind affecting fear effect on everyone in 30 feet. Being a bard, this might be your thing. I do not see a reason why one could not have both. The instrument Bayonet on the neck of the weapon, and the instrument blade on the bottom. If you are going this route, then pandemonic silver is a must.

Instrument Blade: 10 gp (Mwk +300 gp) (Pandemonic Silver: +9,000 gp)

The act of popping the instrument blade from hiding will result in a fear check in your enemies for 30 feet.

Now assuming that you will mostly be using the bow for attacking and the Instrument Bayonet is merely a backup, then I would have it made out of Starmetal. This gives it the properties of adamantine, which will allow you to cut through anything, should the need arise, and it adds an extra 1d6 damage to extra-planar creatures while they are on the Material Plane. For an extra 5,000 gp, that would be quite the bargain.

Instrument Bayonet: 5 gp (Mwk +300 gp) (Starmetal +5,000 gp)

Now you take the lute-bow.

Take Hank's Energy Bow from the Animate Series Handbook and extrapolate out just the Energy Properties. Now, just to show off, but totally optional, consider adding shocking. Yes, it’s a +1 bonus for only +1d6 damage, but it allows you to make your energy lute-bow crackle with lightning, which is just plain cool. And add the Bow of Song’s properties as well. 10,000 gp to be able to add your charisma bonus to your to hit and damage is an excellent buy for a bard.

Now the instrument blade. Give it the properties of a Songblade. The +2 to performance checks doesn’t hurt, it’s the extra use of bardic music that helps.

To the elvencraft “club” you can add the Harmonizing WSA from MIC. This allows you to save room for bonus based WSAs that you might add to your weapons you are likely to actually attack with and put those on the instrument bayonet.

Now, you have “four” weapons. That means for an additional 400 gp you can add 4 wand chambers to your ultimate bard weapon.

So you should have:

A Bow that does 2d6 + Chr force damage
A Club that can keep playing for you.
A +2 to performance checks.
A Stabby-Stabby that gets better when you use bardic music.
4 wands you can use if you need to without drawing them.
And an Lute that has strings made out of Pure force and lightning.

ROCK ON!

Or you can just look at my sig for help on spells and weapons.

[macdaddy]

Dude, you are speaking Greek.

[herrhauptmann]

Dude, you are speaking Greek.

Just different abbreviations from the normal. Also, really needs to list sources.

What are "WSA's?"

If you make a weapon from a special material, you normally don't need to include the +300 for masterwork. The masterwork cost is subsumed in the cost of the material. Ditto for elvencraft. You don't pay for elvencraft and masterwork, all elven craft is by definition masterwork.

Hanks Energy Bow (from the D&D cartoon) http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a
It's 22600gold for a +2 bow. That means, you can add it to any preexisting magic bow for a grand total 14000gold. 8k for the +2, and the 600 is probably the base price of the bow. Check with DM to see how the force thing works.

Pandemonic silver. If I remember right, that fear save is dependent on the wind speed. So it's a piddling DC in anything below 50mph or so. I don't think the mere act of drawing the hidden blade causes a fear save either, I think you need to actually swing it.

[DMVerdandi]

Why exactly do you want to play a bard? The learning curve is kind of high, and without really experienced techniques and the like, it kind of falls behind. If you want to play because of the buffing, you can really do a bit better. If you want to play because you actually like the theme of the class, disregard what I am going to say next.

If you just want to be a great help and buffer extraordinare, then I would suggest perhaps using a full spellcasting class.

A really good option is SRD generic spellcaster 10/War Weaver 5/Shadowcraft Mage 5

Generic spellcaster gives you the lists of wiz/sorc,cleric, and druid, cast as a sorcerer. This means you can get the juicy buffs from cleric(and druid) cast as sorcerer spells.

War weaver allows you to cast all of those spells into a weave, which allows you to distribute all of them towards your allies, based on your casting stat bonus. Get it to at LEAST 22 and you should be able to exponentially increase your spell economy when it comes to buffing.

Shadowcraft mage gives you a bit more variety, allowing you to switch any illusion spell you have into an shadowy evocation/conjuration spell on the fly.


The bardic music buffs just can't touch being able to cast divine power for your whole group for one use.

[gorfnab]

gofnarb, how does that arcane archer build work? My understanding is that ranged builds usually suck because they cannot any damage boost. Doing d6+5 twice per round is kind of poor compared to the fighter or barbarian doing 2d6 + 7 to 12 for two whacks.

Also as an elf, I'd have fewer feats. To get into archer at 9th I'd have to take pb shot, precise shot and wf(longbow) out of the gate, then rapid shot at 9th. That doesn't leave room for melodic casting or song of the heart (i guess you can give up fascinate for that).
In addition with my stats, i would either have a 20 Dex and 14 charisma start boosts going to char, or a 16 dex and 18 charisma with start boosts going to dex

I'd really like to make an effective archer, but i have trouble seeing how that build is effective until 12th level or so
Why Rapid Shot?

You're right in that this build does not show its power until about level 12. The Imbue Arrow Ability from Arcane Archer is the fun one to play with at that level (spamming Anti Magic Field Arrows). Buff spells from Bard can help to up the damage a little. Mostly this build is designed to stay in the back, buff the party, and shoot arrows with interesting spells riding them.

[macdaddy]

Most of the weapon enhancements he was quoting were from unavailable sources. That makes it somewhat difficult. In addition, the prices on them would require me to be significantly higher than 7th level. They would be a long term plan, not immediate help, keeping the archery as mediocre for a long time.

Why rapid shot? Otherwise you are firing one less arrow and doing jack until 12th+ level. That's a long time to wait. I thought perhaps there was a way to make a decent archer bard that didn't suck for a long time, but i can't find one without dragon fire inspiration. So, not worth it.

Why play a bard?
I want to play a gish-y character. Bard seems to play a decent role in a large party. I can buff a little, cast reasonably, and still be effective in combat. And most importantly, be effective at 7th level. I don't want to wait until 12th to some super bad ass, campaign will probably be over by then. Highest character I've had in a LONG time was an 11th level monk in HackMaster(6 or 8 years!), then it ended and we switched to 3.5

With power attack, knowledge devotion, alter self, and tumble, i should be able to get into an effective position giving flanking bonuses + singing bonuses, have a decent AC, and still do adequate damage. Then contribute some in downtime with face skills.

BaB 5 + 2 str + 1 weapon + 3 song +2 knowledge +2 flanking -2 power attack=13 hit
D8(4.5) +3 str + 1 weapon + 3 song + 2 knowledge +4 power attack= 17.5

AC = chain shirt +1 (5) +2 dex + 6 or 8 NA from alter self =23 to 25.



i don't want to be just a buffer or psc, because i think its boring. I cast a spell that makes the combat an easy win, or i cast a spell and the enemy makes their saves and nothing happens. A war weaver ISN'T available because its NOT an available source.

At the end of the day, I'm trying to create a character from the available sources that can be effective from level 7, expect his power to grow ata reasonable level, and be fun to play ( that means mixing it up in combat and rolling dice :) ).

[Socratov]

Make it Bard 9/Swiftblade 1/SC 1/Swiftblade +9 for Time Stop fun, or Bard 9/Swiftblade 1/SC 2/Swiftblade +8 for an extra level of casting, I'd say.

Still, WotC online stuff isn't on the source whitelist, so Piggy's build is looking pretty good within that ruleset. Pity it doesn't advance IC more, but Fochlucan Lyrist is the only class that advances BAB, casting, and IC at a decent rate all at once, and that's a nightmare to qualify for without Incarnum.

you really ninja'd me before I could even think of posting.

However, to help mitigate hit to IC you'd best take Vest of Legends (DMG) to raise your effective bardlevel for songs by 5, and plead with the GM for use of Chaos Music (DR326 p80). It raises your effective bardlevel for the number of bard levels lost, or 4; whichever comes earlier.

I'd also tweak the build into :
CG Human
Cloisered Cleric 1/bard 6/swiftblade 3/Sublime chord 1/swiftblade 7/Sublime Chord 2

build notes:
Trade countersong for spellbreaker song (CM)
Trade Fascinate for Healing Hymn
Trade Bardic Knowledge for Bardic Knack
Get Travel devotion for cloistered cleric
Trade Suggestion for Song of the Heart

that should open up either feats, or more options

with vest of legend you have:

8th level spells (or spellslots)
full swiftblade goodies
you count as a lvl 15 bard for song determining puproses, which means IC +3 out of the box and Inspire heroics
travel devotion

[macdaddy]

Thanks Socratov.

I was planning on some of the stuff in your build notes. You posting it re-enforces my decision :)
1. Trade countersong for spellbreaker song (CM)
2. Trade Suggestion for Song of the Heart
3. Trade Fascinate for Healing Hymn

Bardic Knack:
I am not sure how Bardic Knack will work in your build as it is only bard level 6, which would only work out as 3 skill levels. I know people drool over bardic knack, but I don't get it. The skills I want/need (perform, umd, tumble), I will MAX. The synergy skills I will put 5 into (jump, bluff, etc). Then I have to put at least 1 skill into the untrained skills to use them. Yes, its nice to have SOME free skills, but with only 3-5 skills plus stat, how many things will I succeed on? Hide/Move silent with 3 skills? who cares. Rope use, swim? Why does it matter?

Cloistered Cleric:
I like the idea a little. Getting turnings to power travel devotion. :). Were you planning on trading in domains for the corresponding domain devotion feats as well? (ie Travel Devotion and Knowledge Devotion). Not sure if my GM would allow that as it seems a bit abusive.

P.S.
I don't think your build can enter Swiftblade until 9th. You need HASTE as a spell which you cannot get until 7th level bard.


Overall:
If I CAN use swiftblade, I would be comfortable with
Bard 9/Swiftblade 1/SC 1/Swiftblade +9
OR
Bard 9/Swiftblade 1/SC 2/Swiftblade +8

If I CANNOT use swiftblade:
Bard 8/Abjurant Champion 2/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion +3/Eldritch Knight 5

Only problem with the last one is the EK needs proficiency with ALL martial weapons, which a Bard does not have. So may need to go for Sacred Exorcist at the end instead....

Maybe:
Bard 8 = +4 inspire courage capable, +6BAB, 3rd level spells
Hexblade 2 = 1/day Curse ability, +2BAB, +charisma to saves
Sublime Chord 2 = +1BAB, song of arcane power, 4th and 5th level spells
Abjurant Champ 5 = +5BAB, progress SC casting to 8th level spells
Sacred Exorcist 3(?) = +2BAB, turn undead, progress to full SC caster levels

ending +16BAB, full SC casting. Lose out on inspire greatness.

[herrhauptmann]

If you go Hexblade, ask your DM for this. http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/1088151#332210466
It's a fix from the writer, using lessons learned from the run of 3.5.

Hexblade Fix:
* Boost to Fortitude saves of +1 at level 2 and every 6 levels there after (level 8, 14, and 20)
* A hexblade may use their curse a number of times each day equal to 1 + Cha modifier, with a maximum of 2 additional uses a level 1. The additional uses per day from Cha modifier increases by +1/day at level 2 and every 3 levels there after.
* Curse ability usable as a swift action
* Proficiency with all armor and shields, except tower shields.
* Ability to cast in light or medium armor and while carrying a light shield or buckler. This increases to heavy shields at level 9.
* At 6th level, the hexblade can cast one hexblade spell per day as a swift action, as long as its original casting time is a standard action or faster. He gains an additional use of this power at levels 8, 11, 14, and 18.

[macdaddy]

Is there any way to get swiftblade 9 and 9th level spells? I was playing around but couldn't find any way to do it.

You can't take SC until after 10th level.
You can only lose 1 SC caster level and still get 9th level spells
Getting to Swiftblade 9 causes you to lose 2 caster levels

I don't think it can be done with Bard.

[herrhauptmann]

Is there any way to get swiftblade 9 and 9th level spells? I was playing around but couldn't find any way to do it.


Getting to Swiftblade 9 causes you to lose 2 caster levels

3 actually.
1st, 4th, 7th, and 10th are all no-casting.


What you could probably do. Start swiftblade before 10th level, advancing your bard CL at swift2,3.
Then at 11th, you take sublime chord. After that, when you take swiftblade, you advance your SC casting instead of bard.
Some prestige classes state that when you've got more than 1 casting class, you can decide which one to advance at each level. (I don't remember if swiftblade has that line though, also, ask your DM.) As a bard sublime chord, you've got two different casting progressions to play with.

[macdaddy]

I guess I should have said, THE BEST I can do is lose 2 Sublime Chord Caster levels.

Going bard 7/ swiftblade 3 loses 1 bard caster level, who cares?
Then going SublimeChord 1/swiftblade 6(4-9) loses TWO sublime caster levels. At that point it doesn't matter what else I take, I will not get better than 8th level sublime chord spells.

Unless there is a way to shoe-horn swiftblade 4 into the build so it happens ON level 10, there is no way to get 9th level spells.

I think wizard 6/swiftblade 9, abjurant champ 5 (not necessarily in that order), is the only way to get swiftblade 9 PLUS 9th level spells.

Anyway,
================================================== =======
3 builds for critique depending on swiftblade ruling by the GM

Option 1: Hell NO you can't use that!
Bard 8,
(Abjurant Champ 2 or Hexblade 2 or Ranger 2 or Fighter 2),
Sublime Chord 2,
Abjurant Champ 3
(something else 5)

1. Melodic Casting, Power Attack
3. Knowledge Devotion
6. Combat Casting (substitute suggestion for song of the heart)
9. Arcane Strike
12. ?? Lyric Spell
15. ??
18. ??

That only takes it to 15th level, but I doubt we will go beyond that. If we do, I will need to "retrain" at least 1 of my level 9-10's for fighter or some such, then fill out the build with eldritch knight or possibly some sacred exorcist.

Ends with ~17BaB, SC caster progression that is probably -1, but still has 9th level spells.


Option 2 I guess it looks ok :)
Bard 8,
Swiftblade 2,
Sublime Chord 2,
Swiftblade 7,
something else 1

1. Melodic Casting, Power Attack
3. Knowledge Devotion
6. Dodge (substitute suggestion for song of the heart)
9. Mobility
12. Arcane Strike
15. ?? Lyric Spell
18. ??

Whats more important? Knowledge devotion at lower levels? Or arcane strike ASAP at 9th level then knowledge devotion at 12th?

Ends with ~17 BaB, SC 8th level spell casting


Option 3 Why do you want to whack things with a sword anyway?
Bard 8
Virtuouso 2
Sublime Chord 2
Virtuoso 8

1. Melodic Casting, Versatile Caster
3. Extra Song
6. Lyric Spell (substitute suggestion for song of the heart)
9. ??
12. ??
15. ??
18. ??

Ends with 12 BaB, full SC casting, extra music benefits.

================================================== ======

Looking for help deciding on the second two if swiftblade is not allowed, and feat selection. I would be inclined to pick swiftblade at this point followed by the more martial class.