*best* dwarf sub-race ?

[CyberThread]

What would you say is the best dwarf subrace for casters, and for melee types?

[Daftendirekt]

What would you say is the best dwarf subrace for casters, and for melee types?

FirebloodedDM EarthUA Dwarf for melee.

For casting, Aleithian Dwarf because it get +2 int. It's 3.0 psionic, though, so it's a weird transfer to 3.5

[Curmudgeon]

FirebloodedDM EarthUA Dwarf for melee.
That's not a specified combination.
Otherwise, fireblood dwarves are identical to the dwarves described in the Player's Handbook, except as noted below.

[Daftendirekt]

Earth is basically just a subtype you can slap on, like Water Orcs. So, slap Earth onto a Fireblooded Dwarf.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I quite enjoyed my Gold Dwarf Bard/Keeper of the Cerulean Sign. Dexterity penalty instead of Charisma, and bonuses versus aberrations instead of orcs/goblins.

[Curmudgeon]

Earth is basically just a subtype you can slap on, like Water Orcs. So, slap Earth onto a Fireblooded Dwarf.
Sorry, but that's wrong.

Earth Dwarves
Earth dwarves are identical with dwarves as described in Chapter 2 of the Player’s Handbook, except for some differences in racial traits.
Both of these (Earth Dwarves and Fireblood Dwarves) are variations from the standard Dwarf described in the Player's Handbook. You can have one or the other variant, but not both.

[gurgleflep]

Sorry, but that's wrong.

Both of these (Earth Dwarves and Fireblood Dwarves) are variations from the standard Dwarf described in the Player's Handbook. You can have one or the other variant, but not both.

And that's when people use homebrew! :smalltongue:

[Fax Celestis]

I am a huge fan of Earth Dwarves, especially for things like Druids.

[Yogibear41]

I like Deep Dwarves, just for the extra +1 on saves and 30 extra feet of darkvision, just get some sunglasses to off set that silly light sensitivity.

[eggynack]

I am a huge fan of Earth Dwarves, especially for things like Druids.
Why's that? It looks a lot like a regular dwarf, except you're arbitrary moving points from one dump stat into another dump stat. The fact that dexterity is likely a superior dump stat to have points in is slightly relevant.

[Fax Celestis]

Why's that? It looks a lot like a regular dwarf, except you're arbitrary moving points from one dump stat into another dump stat. The fact that dexterity is likely a superior dump stat to have points in is slightly relevant.

Wisdom bonus, elemental thematics.

[eggynack]

Wisdom bonus, elemental thematics.
Earth dwarves get a wisdom bonus? Is it possible I'm looking at a thing which is not the correct thing? It looks like they get +2 strength and con, and -2 dex and cha. I can't see wisdom anywhere.

[Curmudgeon]

Earth dwarves get a wisdom bonus? Is it possible I'm looking at a thing which is not the correct thing? It looks like they get +2 strength and con, and -2 dex and cha. I can't see wisdom anywhere.
You're looking at the correct thing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#earthDwarves).

[eggynack]

You're looking at the correct thing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#earthDwarves).
Ah well. I'm glad that I was in the right, but at least a little disappointed that I didn't find a cool druid racial option that I didn't know about before. I'ma think about dragonborn buommans now.

[animewatcha]

To put it more specificly, the variations from unearthed arcana used the base races for more simplistic things for easier comparison. There isn't anything that explicitly says you can or can't combine things. If you are gonna be a fireblooded earth dwarf. Substitute the base stats as needed before the modification.

Like me making a fire grey elf. total stat mods were -2 str, +2 dex, -3 con, +4 int, -2 cha.

Forgive Curmudgeon, he tends to stick with 'PHB and DMG being likened to the Bible' kind of mentality. At times, he is right about things. At times, he is wrong ( when it comes to additional sources being used, specifics, etc. ).

[Curmudgeon]

To put it more specificly, the variations from unearthed arcana used the base races for more simplistic things for easier comparison. There isn't anything that explicitly says you can or can't combine things.
The fact that each is specified as a variant from the standard Dwarf race limits the allowed variation.

Let's take an example from another context. If there were a way to select blonde Italians, and a way to select yellow-haired Italians, would using both selections yield a platinum blonde Italian? No, because these selections are not stated to be combinable for greater effect. The same goes for these two variants from the standard Dwarf race.

[VariSami]

I agree with Curmudgeon - animewatcha is making too big leaps in inferring the creator's intent. First of all, templates are a thing. Secondly, the stat changes for the races are not standardized within elements (I think?) which would make the races their own sub-types. Also, Unearthed Arcana's Bloodlines would indicate the opposite of the creator's intent to make things simple in general.

Oh, also: I kind of like the Wild Dwarves in Races of Faerün. They are small size which is nice since Dwarves are slow in any case, and I would call Poison Use and disease resistance more important than Stonecunning and Craft bonuses.

[animewatcha]

It wouldn't be stated that you can and it wouldn't be stated that you can't. It would be still be good to ask DM to if it would be okay with him/her ( and would need to pull the roleplay applications of both like Fire and grey elf go together quite well on the roleplaying ).

Better idea of dealing with Curmudgeon would be monk bonus feat and such like like the Martial monk variant ( ignoring pre-reqs ) versus exact wording of the PHB. Then bring in addition sources and he starts to get 'more silent' on it ( a trend I noticed in threads in which he argued against the Martial Monk shenanigan ).

-edit- easiest to compare to the base PHB to explain what statistical changes need to be done versus an entire book of every single racial stat adjustment, modifier change, ability gain/loss, etc.

[eggynack]

Aren't fire elves and gray elves (or whatever we're talking about here) just different races? Can't you only be one race, unless there's some weird exception I'm unaware of? It's not like you can be a halfling elf, so don't see why you'd be able to become a fire gray elf.

[animewatcha]

Normally, yes. But, take a fire elf parent and gray elf parent. They have a kid and...

Again, nothing explicitedly for or against. I even asked this in a previous RAW Q&A thread thread and it was stated nothing for and against explicitedly aside wrong stat adjustments applied by Curm and the other person. One of those things, run by your DM just in case. Shenanigans like Pun-Pun, drown-healing, and lord knows what else.

[eggynack]

Normally, yes. But, take a fire elf parent and gray elf parent. They have a kid and...

Again, nothing explicitedly for or against. I even asked this in a previous RAW Q&A thread thread and it was stated nothing for and against explicitedly aside wrong stat adjustments applied by Curm and the other person. One of those things, run by your DM just in case. Shenanigans like Pun-Pun, drown-healing, and lord knows what else.
If you take a fire elf parent and a gray elf parent, then you'll get some kinda half fire elf half gray elf. That's not a race, so you can't become it. There's no discernible difference that I can see between this and taking a halfling parent and a dwarf parent, and having them have a kid. Can you identify a difference?

[animewatcha]

Two similar races ( the elves ) versus two VERY different races ( halfling and dwarf ). Wanna try that again?

[eggynack]

Two similar races ( the elves ) versus two VERY different races ( halfling and dwarf ). Wanna try that again?
Not really. There's no in game distinction between similar races and less similar races, at least to my knowledge. If you're relying on pure RAW in this situation, which is what you're doing if you're claiming rules ambiguity then this difference is only important if the game says it is.

[Fable Wright]

It wouldn't be stated that you can and it wouldn't be stated that you can't. It would be still be good to ask DM to if it would be okay with him/her ( and would need to pull the roleplay applications of both like Fire and grey elf go together quite well on the roleplaying ).

Better idea of dealing with Curmudgeon would be monk bonus feat and such like like the Martial monk variant ( ignoring pre-reqs ) versus exact wording of the PHB. Then bring in addition sources and he starts to get 'more silent' on it ( a trend I noticed in threads in which he argued against the Martial Monk shenanigan ).

-edit- easiest to compare to the base PHB to explain what statistical changes need to be done versus an entire book of every single racial stat adjustment, modifier change, ability gain/loss, etc.
So, you're talking about 3rd party content that most DMs give the same credibility as homebrew and using it to point out that RAW can be bizarre at times and trying to use it to shame someone into not posting viewpoints you don't agree with, rather than address the fact that he has a point. Yes, you could probably pull this off with a generous DM. No, that doesn't mean Curmudgeon doesn't have a point, as RAW is the gold standard when doing any form of optimization, even when said optimization is just finding the best subrace, just because it will be more universally accepted over a conditionally accepted race.

Besides, if we accept your reading of it, Earth Dwarf is a template, and we're looking for the best distinct subrace. (The distinction being, when you bring templates into it, the Feral Dread Blossom Symbiote Incarnate Dustform Dwarf becomes the best, and/or we start adding templates like Magic-Blooded and Unseelie Fae.) Either way, we're not looking for a Fireblooded Earth Dwarf, so can we stop arguing RAW and start looking for more good Dwarven subraces?

[animewatcha]

As far as 3rd party goes, Dragon Magazine is close to 'official' WOTC content versus others. Martial monk is most common thing I have noticed with him ( and sometimes argued with ) and thus was mentioned. As far as adding sources went, look at ascetic stalker feat, flensing strike feat ( and story fluff for monk class in the source ), and racial sub-level for I think kalashtar monk as a few examples. One should notice they make special mention as to pre-reqs that should be noted. Hence, my post.

I was addressing the fact that Cudg. had a point and also mentioning that one should be cautioned about what is posted, because on touchey things like requirements, one viewpoint might get in the way of the truth.

Also, by trying combination ( like fire grey elf example if not even for stat purposes ), maybe you can find a new interesting combo to bring to the table ( roleplaying ).

[Ansem]

I love Dream Dwarfs for some reason...........

[eggynack]

I love Dream Dwarfs for some reason...........
They do seem pretty sweet. My first impression is that they'd be pretty good on a druid (I was looking into neat dwarf druid races, cause of the earth dwarf comment). The stat mods are better than those of a standard dwarf, because charisma is tertiary compared to dexterity's dump status, and druids might have enough earth spells and divinations to make the spell power thing decent. It's still pretty low on the hierarchy of good druid races though.

Edit: Huh. I did not notice that druid was the favored class for dream dwarves. It's nearly completely irrelevant for actual play, because it is the rare druid indeed who multiclasses, but it certainly validates my position somewhat. I still prefer a desert half-orc though.

[Fax Celestis]

Earth dwarves get a wisdom bonus? Is it possible I'm looking at a thing which is not the correct thing? It looks like they get +2 strength and con, and -2 dex and cha. I can't see wisdom anywhere.

Oh, hell, I forgot about my house rule again. My group uses PF base stat adds instead of 3.5s.