The spell that every arcane trickster needs to have

[CyberThread]

DISOBEDIENCE!


Makes you immune or another you choose immune to compulsion and enchantment spells and other things that make someone do something they don't want to do.

1 hour/casting level duration

If the caster fails a will save, you get to know what commands they have for you, and can do pretend to do what they say and they think they are in command of you.

[Story]

It's a useful defence until Mindblank becomes available, but what does this have to do with Arcane Tricksters?

[StreamOfTheSky]

It's a useful defence until Mindblank becomes available, but what does this have to do with Arcane Tricksters?

I guess because the spell effect seems so "roguish" and spy-like?

Pretty good, and a spell is definitely cheaper than a feat. But I wouldn't really bank on the caster failing a will save, so I'd still probably go with this feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/spelltouchedFeats.htm#falsePretenses) instead. As long as you make your save, it always works.

[tyckspoon]

Pretty good, and a spell is definitely cheaper than a feat. But I wouldn't really bank on the caster failing a will save, so I'd still probably go with this feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/spelltouchedFeats.htm#falsePretenses) instead. As long as you make your save, it always works.

Bolded part is the difficulty in relying on that feat - if you *don't* make your save, you're mind-controlled. Disobedience protects you from that, no questions, no saves needed, and has a secondary benefit of potentially letting you screw with the person who tried to control you.

[Devronq]

I thought you were gunna say scorching ray :p seems like the best spell for arcane trickstwr assuming you DM allows multiple hits = multiple sneak attacks with spells

[Story]

If you want to cheese sneak attack with massive numbers of attacks, you're better off just polymorphing into a Hydra.

[juicycaboose]

I thought you were gunna say scorching ray :p seems like the best spell for arcane trickstwr assuming you DM allows multiple hits = multiple sneak attacks with spells

seeing as it says explicitly in the rules that only the first ray in the volley gets sneak attack that'd be a houserule

[Ravens_cry]

Which is why I like Pathfinder. No such rule exists.:smallamused:

[Tvtyrant]

seeing as it says explicitly in the rules that only the first ray in the volley gets sneak attack that'd be a houserule

Only a volley if it is a standard action though, they become eligible for sneak attack on a full round action. Play a Sorcerer/Arcane Trickster and apply maximize to get a full round of extremely accurate death lasers.

[Ravens_cry]

Only a volley if it is a standard action though, they become eligible for sneak attack on a full round action. Play a Sorcerer/Arcane Trickster and apply maximize to get a full round of extremely accurate death lasers.
That's almost a book throwing offence, and I like Arcane Tricksters.:smallyuk:

[Tvtyrant]

That's almost a book throwing offence, and I like Arcane Tricksters.:smallyuk:

like 150 damage (72+21d6) of the most easily resistible type is a broken use of a 6th level spell slot (also subject to spell resistance.) :smallbiggrin: Now if you use reserves of strength to get it up to 300 at level 20 by shooting 5 rays then it is getting a little weirder, but mailmen and chargers are still way ahead.

I suppose with craven it gets a little worse, but it would take a lot of optimization to make that trick a good one. Craven, maximize spell, reserves of strength, energy substitution, levels in Sorcerer and Rogue, and actually getting off a barrage of sneak attacks at range at high levels against spell resistance. The best I can come out to is like 120+157+100 (377) damage off of a 6th level slot at level 20. And you get stunned for three rounds afterwards!

[Ravens_cry]

It's not the damage.
It's the RAW abuse it entails.

[Tvtyrant]

It's not the damage.
It's the RAW abuse it entails.

Maybe. I think anything with an at best mediocre output which drains a significant amount of build resources is off the abuse hook. No free zodar wishes here :P

[tyckspoon]

Only a volley if it is a standard action though, they become eligible for sneak attack on a full round action. Play a Sorcerer/Arcane Trickster and apply maximize to get a full round of extremely accurate death lasers.

There's a separate rule (in Rules Compendium, at least - not sure where they originally placed it) that says that spells, specifically, only get one instance of precision damage regardless of how long it takes to cast. And it's even harsher - that rule forces it to apply only to the first attack roll. If that first roll misses, well, no Sneak Attack for you. (I would recommend ignoring this one, it's unnecessarily harsh and smacks of some developer being absolutely paranoid about having an Arcane Trickster breaking his game.. but it is there.)

[Story]

You could reduce the build resources a bit by taking a level of Binder and going Anima Mage and then binding Malphas or Andromalius. You won't get as much SA as a real Rogue, but you'll have a lot better spellcasting.

[Ravens_cry]

Maybe. I think anything with an at best mediocre output which drains a significant amount of build resources is off the abuse hook. No free zodar wishes here :P
And that is where we disagree. I wouldn't allow bucket healing, for example, even though it's a pretty ineffective way to heal, because it is plain to me that it is a bug in the simulation, a glitch in the Matrix, and a crack in the interface.
On the other hand, if you want to replicate Rods from God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_bombardment) using Major Creation and some form of flight spell, be my guest. It's something I could see being done 'in-universe'.

[TuggyNE]

There's a separate rule (in Rules Compendium, at least - not sure where they originally placed it)

It's original to RC. Which, itself, causes a certain amount of grumbling.

[olentu]

It's original to RC. Which, itself, causes a certain amount of grumbling.

I believe he is talking about the complete arcane rule.

[TuggyNE]

I believe he is talking about the complete arcane rule.

Huh. Perhaps I was mistaken. Apologies. :smallfrown:

[Tvtyrant]

There's a separate rule (in Rules Compendium, at least - not sure where they originally placed it) that says that spells, specifically, only get one instance of precision damage regardless of how long it takes to cast. And it's even harsher - that rule forces it to apply only to the first attack roll. If that first roll misses, well, no Sneak Attack for you. (I would recommend ignoring this one, it's unnecessarily harsh and smacks of some developer being absolutely paranoid about having an Arcane Trickster breaking his game.. but it is there.)

Yet another reason not to play with that filthy book. I LIKE my bloat, thanks very much :smallwink:

[CyberThread]

yeah rules compendium isn't raw anyways, as I don't know a damn soul that owns the book anyways :P

[Story]

Apparently Rules Comendium has a few useful rules in it though. Like that Prcs don't apply multiclass penalties (assuming you're using multiclass penalties in the first place for some reason).