All-Kobolds Bard campaign tips? [3.5, PF?]

[13_CBS]

Greetings Playground,

I've been kicking around an idea for DMing a 3.5 and/or PF PbP game here. The premises:

4 person party
Race must be Kobold
PCs must be "Bards"--levels must be primarily Bard levels, Bard-advancement PrC levels, or of classes that could reasonably refluffed as Bard (must at least include Perform as a class skill)
Stat-generation uncertain, but probably aiming for something on the higher end (36 point buy, etc.)
If starting past Level 1, then WBL
All WotC-printed books from 3.5 allowed. No Dragon Magazine/Compendium, official web-enhancements and web content allowed, 3.0 material allowed on a case-by-case basis

Fluff-wise, the party will be a group of kobold musicians from a kobold settlement ruled by a whimsical Red Dragon who loves music. One day, the dragon grows bored and coerces the PCs to go out and bring back some more interesting to listen to, and at the end of the campaign the party discovers/invents Heavy Metal (called Dragon Metal here: incidentally, I plan on calling this campaign For Dragon Metal We Will Die).

As I'm pretty inexperienced as a DM, I'm hoping for a low-mid op campaign. For example, if on a scale from 1 to 10 where 1 = WotC-levels of low op and 10 is the very highest practical optimization, I'm hoping to keep things around 4 or 5.

However, there are some things I'm concerned about:

*What would be a good level to start the PCs? I was thinking about starting at Level 1, but that puts limitations on builds (no +1 LA or more templates, etc.), and a Level 1 all-Bard party might have difficulties filling the requisite roles. It would also prevent the players from accessing the better PrCs for 5 or so levels. On the other hand, however, I do enjoy the fact that starting from Level 1 can create a better sense of growth and change in the characters, and give me more room to create a bigger, more in-depth campaign.
*Assuming I'm allowing full access to 3.5 stuff--would using Pathfinder Bards be preferable to 3.5 Bards? On one hand, the base PF Bard does not seem to be all that much different from the 3.5 Bard, but on the other hand PF does offer archetypes, and I haven't had a chance to look through very many of those.

Also, are there any other concerns that stick out? Anything that sets off alarms?

Thanks in advance. :smallsmile:

[Doc_Maynot]

Level six should allow them to have to each have their own separate take on the concept and allow them some decent abilities while being low leveled enough to give them time to grow. (Also give the opportunity for some to enter in prestige bard rather than base bard)

All kobold party seems pretty interesting. And I'd love to see if there is a variety of approaches.

[13_CBS]

Level six should allow them to have to each have their own separate take on the concept and allow them some decent abilities while being low leveled enough to give them time to grow. (Also give the opportunity for some to enter in prestige bard rather than base bard)


The trouble is that I get wary of D&D past level 15 or so: the conventional wisdom seems to be that D&D 3.5 past that point gets really wonky. This means that starting at Level 6 (usually my ideal starting point) only leaves 9 levels to grow, and I'm worried that this might not be enough room for a big campaign.

Though on the other hand...*considers possibility of a E15 game* :smallconfused:

[ericgrau]

Level 5-6 is usually good regardless of the campaign. Level 4 minimum for glitterdust, and even against blind foes flailing about they'll struggle with the bard's limited ability to deal damage or kill. And heaven help them if they fight undead. Not all challenges need to be solved with violence, though pure talking is also unlikely. This is D&D after all. Some infiltration (skills + illusions), nonlethal apprehending of foes (disables) and physical dungeon obstacles (smart use of skills + utility magic items) might be a reasonable compromise for some encounters.

The players should talk with each other so they're not only doing different things but also coordinate well. For example regular bardic music plus dragonfire inspiration plus good strength scores stack well and might give the party reasonable damage output, while any 2 on their own would leave them lacking in either attack bonus or damage. Or they might come up with a completely different plan. I wouldn't suggest anything specific to them, only get them talking to each other. Otherwise I think you could easily get 4 support builds supporting the wrong thing, or disable builds with nobody to mop up the disabled foes or etc.

If you want a long campaign I think you could push it as low as level 3 but go easy on them at first. It would be a good way to get settled into the storyline too.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Four Kobold Bards.... Here's what I would do:

Desert Kobold (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertKobolds) doesn't have a Con penalty, so use that. Savage Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard) is better suited to surviving in harsh environments, and it's a bit of an upgrade over the standard Bard. Then there's all the various alternate class features, half of them should probably take Spellbreaker Song from CM in place of Countersong, at least half of them should take Healing Hymn in CC instead of Hypnotism. All of them should trade the Suggestion song for the feat Song of the Heart per ECS.

For feats, they should all get two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard) . There are some very fitting choices (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258440#30) from Dragon magazines (Skulker, Hot Blooded, Love of Nature, Bestial Instinct, etc.), but if Dragon material isn't allowed then it's Murky-Eyed and Vulnerable for everyone. Everyone gets Melodic Casting, Dragonfire Inspiration, and Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) at 1st level. Only two will inspire at once, one will use Dragonfire Inspiration and the other will use the normal bonus to attack and damage. Note the wild cohorts benefit from this as well. At 3rd level three of them will take a single level of Sorcerer, using the Dragonblood Sorcerer substitution level to get Draconic Heritage to switch their Dragonfire Inspiration to Sonic, Cold, and Acid respectively. Assuming they're all good aligned, each one will take Ancestral Relic at 3rd to do this trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267805#4), and they'll all take Words of Creation at 6th level. Each of them will get the spell Inspirational Boost, and each of them will try to pick up a Badge of Valor asap. They should all take Leadership as well, all for Kobold Bard cohorts who have the same builds, but one with Draconic Heritage for electricity and the other three won't have Dragonfire Inspiration. Two of them should be very similar to this build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252815#4), trading Inspire Courage for Inspire Awe and Suggestion for Haunting Melody. Note all four cohorts should also be Savage Bards with Wild Cohort, for eight total animal followers.

Inspire Courage bonuses, for the PCs and their animal cohorts:
At 1st level, they'll get +1 to attack and damage and +1d6 fire damage.
At 2nd level, they'll get +2 to attack and damage and +2d6 fire due to Inspirational Boost.
At 3rd level, they should all have a Badge of Valor. They'll get +3d6 fire, +3d6 cold, +3d6 acid, and +3d6 sonic damage added to their attacks.
At 6th level, they get +7d6 fire, +5d6 cold, +5d6 acid, and +5d6 sonic, as three have a Sorcerer level delaying their Bard progression.
At 7th level, they get +7d6 fire, +7d6 cold, +7d6 acid, and +7d6 sonic.
At 8th level, they get +9d6 fire, +7d6 cold, +7d6 acid, and +7d6 sonic.
At 9th level, they'll have Leadership for 7th level cohorts. They'll get +9d6 fire, +9d6 cold, +9d6 acid, +9d6 sonic, +7d6 electric, and a +7 to attack and damage rolls.

Every one of them should take Sublime Chord at 11th level, including the bard cohorts. The one inspiring fire and the one without Dragonfire Inspiration should go Bard 8/ Virtuoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8. The two using Inspire Awe should take one level in Dread Witch and one level in Nightmare Spinner as early as possible, then continue taking Bard levels until Bard 8, after which they can go Sublime Chord 2 and then the last four in each of Dread Witch and Nightmare Spinner. The ones who dipped a Sorcerer level should consider dipping a single level in Dragon Devotee before Sublime Chord, and after Sublime Chord 2 continue progressing its casting via prestige classes such as Divine Oracle, Abjurant Champion, Paragnostic Apostle, Incantatrix, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, etc.

Note that you can switch all four cohorts to inspiring elemental damage, and the four PCs can be one without Dragonfire Inspiration just inspiring for bonuses, one with Dragonfire Inspiration and no Sorcerer dip, and the other two with Inspire Awe considering how powerful fear effects are at the early to mid levels of the game. However, having a Sorcerer level enables them to use Wand tricks like this build does (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16045684#post16045684) without requiring Use Magic Device checks. The animal cohorts should be War Trained Riding Dogs with the Warbeast template (MM2), and once they hit 7th level they can get Fleshraker dinosaurs (MM3) at 'level -3' and add the Warbeast template to them. Yes, a party of optimized Bards is unbelievably powerful, and more than capable of steam rolling just about anything.

[13_CBS]

*snip*

Welp, the main thing I got from that is that I should limit DFI to one party member. Ugh, I'd forgotten how potent that can be when multiple Bards start using it. :smallannoyed::smalleek:

Edit: I would also consider your builds to be beyond the level of optimization I'm comfortable with; perhaps we're operating under different definitions of low-mid-high op, but the builds you posted seem around 7-8 on the scale I listed in the OP. Nonetheless, I thank you for information. :smallsmile:

[ericgrau]

DFI specifically isn't the issue. 1d6 isn't much better than +1 to hit and damage. It may even be worse when buffing fellow bards. The problem is that it all stacks and more importantly that it's +9d6 rather than +2d6.

EDIT: Ya, I would look more at the optimization level in general and approve items case by case. The players might come up with a completely different hair-brained plan. Or they might be like you and never attempt such things. Better to wait and see than to swing the ban hammer blindly like a party of bards glitterdusted you. And if it's a cool plan that's not too OP, let it be.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Welp, the main thing I got from that is that I should limit DFI to one party member. Ugh, I'd forgotten how potent that can be when multiple Bards start using it. :smallannoyed::smalleek:

Edit: I would also consider your builds to be beyond the level of optimization I'm comfortable with; perhaps we're operating under different definitions of low-mid-high op, but the builds you posted seem around 7-8 on the scale I listed in the OP. Nonetheless, I thank you for information. :smallsmile:

In that case they don't really need Leadership, two can go for the fear build, and two optimize Inspire Courage, one with DFI and one without. They should all still have Wild Cohort, since Bards are squishy. They can still take Leadership but more bards would be a bit redundant, maybe someone who can do traps and a wizard and a cleric and a chain tripper. At least one should consider getting the Summon Elemental reserve feat at 9th level to Nodwick the traps with it.

Edit: I did say that that's what I would do with this party setup. Note most of those Inspire Courage tricks are widely known and widely available, at least I'm not piling on obscure instruments for situational bonuses to get even more dice! Just making sure they're not Exalted and can't take Words of Creation is enough to cut it down by half.

Funny but slightly long story related to this:
My group played a game quite a while back in which we had six characters, two Harmonious Knights (Sorcadin and Samurai) and one Bard, two Druids and one Cleric. We had two animal companions and two wild cohorts (Magebred Warbeast Wolves, DM didn't like the idea of riding dogs but allowed magebred).

We always started Inspiring Courage when we walked in to the dungeon and never stopped the whole time, so only one use was ever spent for any character. The party was 4th level with three Badges of Valor, we were inspiring for +4d6 fire (he took Song of the Heart at 3rd), +2d6 Sonic, and +2 attack and damage. We found a large size Black Dragon (at least CR 9), and managed to lure it into a low end of the cavern so it landed.

The four wolves charged and lined up across the front of it. The dragon stepped to the side and breathed a maximized clinging acid breath across them. They all made the save, and they all had evasion, one of the players said they formed a circle in the air and danced around the stream of acid with all their paws touching...

So the Bard cast Glitterdust and the dragon rolled a 1, one of the wolves managed to trip it, and we all flanked around the blind dragon and made short work of it. The CR 9 dragon didn't deal a single point of damage the entire fight, all that was spent was a single glitterdust from the bard for six 4th level characters to take out a CR 9 dragon.

[Juntao112]

Will these bards be part of a band named Dragonforce?

[13_CBS]

Will these bards be part of a band named Dragonforce?

They are now. :smallamused:

[TripleD]

This is completely optional fluff, but on page 124 of "Complete Adventurers", in the "Masterwork Instruments" section, it talks about how the fiddle is the favoured instrument of Kobolds (and that they claim to have invented it).

Maybe on of your characters could have a special heritage connection with their (gnome-gut) fiddle? Maybe a divine bard or dragon wrought who sees it as a proud tie to their shared history?

[ericgrau]

My group played a game quite a while back in which we had six characters, two Harmonious Knights (Sorcadin and Samurai) and one Bard, two Druids and one Cleric. We had two animal companions and two wild cohorts (Magebred Warbeast Wolves, DM didn't like the idea of riding dogs but allowed magebred).

We always started Inspiring Courage when we walked in to the dungeon and never stopped the whole time, so only one use was ever spent for any character. The party was 4th level with three Badges of Valor, we were inspiring for +4d6 fire (he took Song of the Heart at 3rd), +2d6 Sonic, and +2 attack and damage. We found a large size Black Dragon (at least CR 9), and managed to lure it into a low end of the cavern so it landed.

The four wolves charged and lined up across the front of it. The dragon stepped to the side and breathed a maximized clinging acid breath across them. They all made the save, and they all had evasion, one of the players said they formed a circle in the air and danced around the stream of acid with all their paws touching...

So the Bard cast Glitterdust and the dragon rolled a 1, one of the wolves managed to trip it, and we all flanked around the blind dragon and made short work of it. The CR 9 dragon didn't deal a single point of damage the entire fight, all that was spent was a single glitterdust from the bard for six 4th level characters to take out a CR 9 dragon.
Don't all dragons have blindsense? And black young adults a +15 to hit even while prone? Not that that isn't a lot of badge of valor damage.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Don't all dragons have blindsense? And black young adults a +15 to hit even while prone? Not that that isn't a lot of badge of valor damage.

Blindsense only tells you that something is there, it doesn't negate concealment. A blind dragon still has a 50% chance to miss on every attack and takes a -2 to hit for being blinded. Plus those Magebred Warbeast Wolves each had an AC around 24 with Mage Armor, and the dragon didn't even have Multiattack.

[ericgrau]

Ah, so really it was everything together. Normal: Mage armor, glitterdust, inspire courage +2. Not normal: badges of valor, song of the heart, magebred, warbeast. All put together it adds up to a lot.

This is the key when checking for excessive player optimization. Does it stack? An extra +1 or +1d6 by itself may not seem like a big deal, but if the player can add on multiples from multiple feats then it is a big deal. There is a huge difference between 1d6 and +1d6. For that matter +1d6 is better than a flat 4d6 to 5d6 ability. Actually one by itself is powerful too, you just don't notice it until the 3rd or 4th boost. Be wary of untyped bonuses and such. DFI by itself isn't that bad.

Since it's not expected for every party to need a bard for inspire courage, and because the base DFI energy damage is on par with the strength of core inspire courage I also consider DFI to be effectively "Normal". Even if you stack it from 4 bards, they paid a fair price for it. Everyone gets +3d6+1 to +6d6+2 damage and +1 to +2 attack bonus but they have medium BAB and (barring other optimization tricks) blew 1 round each initiating the music. It's totally fair and not high optimization. Actually the damage output is low compared to 4 low optimization raging barbarians who don't even need the buff round. The extra round adds a ton of early damage against enemy ambushes. Don't over-nerf things that don't need it. Not letting 4 support classes stack their efforts is actually a bit of a nerf since normally there's supposed to be only 1 bard. Instead go after things not equal to normal power if you want to prevent high optimization, even if it seems like "only" a +1 more.

Besides all that, "normal" varies by group. You might easily optimize better than what is possible in core, or find unusual rules loopholes even in core. In that case make decisions on what to allow based on whatever your group's normal is. I'm only saying DFI alone is not high optimization even by trick-free core standards.

[XmonkTad]

Combat is only part of this. Everyone being the same class also means having similar skills and class features. Who is going to be the party face? How will you deal with traps? Poison gas will WRECK this party made of con penalties and bad fort saves.

The idea seems like fun, but a bard is a 5th wheel class (despite being my favorite in core) and will have a hard time making a cohesive party without cohorts to fill the other rolls.

Kobolds are fine to mandate because there are so many variants.

[13_CBS]

Combat is only part of this. Everyone being the same class also means having similar skills and class features. Who is going to be the party face? How will you deal with traps? Poison gas will WRECK this party made of con penalties and bad fort saves.

The idea seems like fun, but a bard is a 5th wheel class (despite being my favorite in core) and will have a hard time making a cohesive party without cohorts to fill the other rolls.

Kobolds are fine to mandate because there are so many variants.

I'm hoping that allowing Pathfinder Bards, and the archetypes that come with it, will solve a lot of this.

Speaking of which: any thoughts on Pathfinder Bard archetypes? Would it be a good idea to use them for this campaign?

[Kennisiou]

No Dragon Compendium? The Jester class weeps, sir. :P

[Doc_Maynot]

Combat is only part of this. Everyone being the same class also means having similar skills and class features. Who is going to be the party face? How will you deal with traps? Poison gas will WRECK this party made of con penalties and bad fort saves.

The idea seems like fun, but a bard is a 5th wheel class (despite being my favorite in core) and will have a hard time making a cohesive party without cohorts to fill the other rolls.

Kobolds are fine to mandate because there are so many variants.

Also, they mentioned any class with perform that could be refluffed to be bard-like.