How do you make fighting very large enemies more exciting?

[Czin]

One problem with D&D is that fighting extremely large enemies seems to largely just involve stabbing at their feet until they fall over and die, hardly the stuff of cinematic excitement.

Now the rules as is don't really do much for conflicts with the colossal, but thankfully 3.Xe is a very modification friendly system.

While my group does have a system handed down to us by our late former Head-GM, I thought I'd hear of how you'd do it.

I'm interested in hearing of systems that are less hitting it until it dies in the same spot over and over without variety and more of this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RypphRK14t8

[Jormengand]

Someone I know made a climb check to go up a building and then leaped onto an ogre and started killing it from on top of it...

[MrNobody]

We don't use specific rules, we try to "play it" using teamwork!

Times ago, in a underground "giant" quest, the cleric, ranger, barbarian & sorcerer in our group used this "manouver":

-The cleric & ranger went right behind a stone giant, dragging and tensing two long silk rope, each grabbing an end of both.
-The same round, the barbarian bull rushed the giant that, due to the tensed ropes, fell on the ground.
-Sorcerer's Evard's black tentacle kept hin on tha ground while we all stabbed him to death!

[ArcturusV]

I kinda laughed at you mentioning that you didn't want it to be just "Cut at the legs until it dies", when it seems like that's basically 2/3rds of that fight, maybe more.

Things I've done to impact things like Giants being more interesting:

Scaling maneuvers. A human shoulder checks you into a bull rush, it's knocking you back 5 feet. A huge sized creature shoulder checks you, you go flying 20 feet. (Doubled, doubled again). Similar things for Overrun, where instead of one target it's every target they could move on top of at once. Giving them natural AoE as well fits in the scope. A human's longsword might hit 1 target, a giant's sword can cleave 3 at once. Just fun little things. As long as you make sure that everything works regardless of who has it, because you know some PC is eventually going to size stack on you... shouldn't be any complaints.

Fun with Crits is the other way to deal with a Giant type, and something I used to do back in 2nd edition (even better back then because they had called shot rules). Gave more of an epic "Pulling the titan apart" feel when you could do things like score a crit that crippled a leg and brought the giant down to his knee, which let a more acrobatic/magical character jump up and score a crit right between the eyes to daze him, which let someone else shank him in the back which on top of the daze toppled him down, etc. It's fun stuff but without crit stacking or called shots becomes a lot more flukey in third.

[killem2]

Another thing to remember is, larger creatures, have more HD usually, so lots of feats to play with and never be afraid to put some class levels on those lug :).


Slap on 10 levels of a TOB class :)

[Doc_Maynot]

Maybe try for a shadow of the colossus feel?

[ZiggZagg]

Look up gameplay videos from Dragon's Dogma. While I think the game had a lot of problems, one thing it did very well was the combat against bigger creatures. Particularly the final fight against the boss dragon, as well as the Ur Dragon fight. Climb checks, weak points, and ad hoc called shots are good ways to deal with bigger creatures. Give them something to make them more dangerous, so the players will utilize these tactics, such as the aforementioned AOE abilities because they are so big. If you look up combat from Mutants and Masterminds, they did this perfectly.

[Red Fel]

If you really want to make it epic, make it tactical; be warned, however, that the players will lose unless you've given them a sort of tutorial on the tactics involved.

Consider the video you posted. In that, there are in-game prompts, including pop-up button-push lists, and a voice in your ear reminding you how to use each of your abilities. Your players will not have that, and you can't give it to them; you will have to have trained them to do these things in-game, ideally by using these tricks in smaller, less deadly encounters.

What tactics am I describing? Well, think of a classic video game boss. He has a series of attacks, maybe he uses them in sequence and maybe he doesn't, but each has a tell, an area of effect, and a dodge. You teach your players to watch for the tell, anticipate the area of effect, and find the dodge.

For example, maybe I have some sort of gigantic creature that is on fire, who builds his lair inside a half-collapsed cave with large rock formations scattered about. When he gets really angry, he takes a deep breath, and his flaming aura retracts for a moment. Next round, the flames billow outwards, filling the chamber; everyone takes fire damage unless they have cover (such as behind the rock formations). Tactics like this require the players to think, instead of just soaking and dealing hits.

Note, however, that this turns your tabletop game into a video game, and it's not something of which I'm personally particularly fond. It often requires either digging up obscure rules or designing them on the fly. Combat is already complicated; turning it into an MMO boss battle just seems to demean it somehow. "Okay, when it uses its Breath Ray, we all make Tumble checks; when it uses its Flame Aura, take cover; when it uses its Claw Swipe, try to dodge; and in between, just attack it with everything you have." In some ways you're just adding a new step between "deal damage" and "soak damage."

Come to think of it, what makes these combats from video games more exciting than a tabletop combat? I get the impression the key word is "atmosphere," not mechanics. You could add tactics, and that would ramp up the tension, or you could simply give the players license to be a little more epic. You might be surprised with what they come up with.

Or you could allow ToB and be done with it.

[Winds of Nagual]

I've had fun with two options:

Significantly overpowered monster in sub-optimal terrain. If the PCs get too close they get squished. But can use the map to their advantage - think cave troll from LotR Fellowship fight

or

Fighting a huge creature in sub-optimal terrain for PCs. A stone giant might consider 6' of standing water 'difficult terrain' - the PCs think of it as drowning.

[Tvtyrant]

Give it hit bars instead of hit points; each time it takes any damage that pierces its damage reduction it loses exactly one hit bar. This has a physical effect on the creature (loses a hand, Achilles tendon, etc.) and the creature gets to make a free attack attack as a response (awesome blow is a good one.)

[TuggyNE]

Come to think of it, what makes these combats from video games more exciting than a tabletop combat? I get the impression the key word is "atmosphere," not mechanics.

Two things, I think: atmosphere, and active real-time engagement in the act of dodging or moving or whatever.

But, in a tabletop game, your twitch reflexes and instinctive awareness of the situation are not being tested, and the atmosphere in such a battle is not all that much better than the usual.

[ryu]

Maybe try for a shadow of the colossus feel?

Like that time i was thrown several stories above the horse colossus thing when I was forced to let go when it was thrashing its head upward hard? That incident wherein I then tried desperately to land on its head again with a grab just to not die of fall damage only to accidentally falling stab the weakpoint as the killing blow? Yeah that's a good feel. It was so good I threw up my arms in victory, danced a bit, and then searched for five straight minutes to find a mic which I promptly dropped.:smallamused:

[Stux]

I am planning an encounter with a truly massive construct (we're talking hundreds of feet high).

The 'encounter' will involve going inside the construct, which will essentially be a dungeon in itself, maintained and guarded inside by smaller constructs. Getting inside will be a battle too, as the construct attempts to smash the party as they climb up to a weak point where they can make an entrance. I haven't worked out the specific details yet, but it will likely involve once inside shutting down parts of it to stop it wrecking cities, leading it away from civilisation and eventually battling its mechanical heart/brain to fully shut it down somewhere it can collapse without harming people.

[Red Fel]

I am planning an encounter with a truly massive construct (we're talking hundreds of feet high).

The 'encounter' will involve going inside the construct, which will essentially be a dungeon in itself, maintained and guarded inside by smaller constructs. Getting inside will be a battle too, as the construct attempts to smash the party as they climb up to a weak point where they can make an entrance. I haven't worked out the specific details yet, but it will likely involve once inside shutting down parts of it to stop it wrecking cities, leading it away from civilisation and eventually battling its mechanical heart/brain to fully shut it down somewhere it can collapse without harming people.

See, this is what I'm talking about. This is gorgeous.

If you break it down into its component parts, it's not much different than storming a castle (except that the castle moves), attacking the guards, and maybe attempting to destroy the relic/altar/phylactery/etc.

And yet, when you put all the pieces together, and add flavor? This idea is magnificent. That's how you make it exciting, right here.

Stux, respect.

[IronFist]

Is there any system that does this specially well? (I don't think M&M does it very well, btw)

[Stux]

Stux, respect.

Why thank you!

This will be the 2nd construct of this kind the party face, the 1st time they will encounter a non-functional one sunken beneath the sea. They wont even be aware that it is a construct rather than a dungeon at first, either working it out from the layout being vaguely humanoid in shape, or finding out explicitly once they reach the 'core'. This sets up for the party how these things work and what they would need to do to shut one down. Then when they find out later on that one is up and running and heading for a major city...

[Cambrian]

There's several ways to go about this. One would be to customize the creature to have these abilities (changing the odd feat to allow it to do what you need; even creating your own custom monstrous feat). Now you can have a log weilding giant attacking several squares infront of it self. This has the advantage of not opening up abuse by PCs stacking size and prevents summoned monster from using them as well.

Alternatively make the environment part of the encounter. At one point a giant jerks on a massive chain which causes crucibles of molten metal pour onto the floor creating spreading areas of hazard. Or make it so after so many rounds have groups of enemies storm into the room. These don't require a special set of rules but make the encounters more memorable than a harder pool of hitpoints.

You can also work it in an opposite way. Make reasonable terrain aspects that can be used by the PCs to handle an encounter that might otherwise be too powerful for them. A dragon at the back of a cavern with large stalactites to hide from it's breath weapon as they advance the distance towards it; combat in a distillery contains large vats of flamible spirits that can be ruptured and set aflame; a porticullis can be closed allowing a difficult encounter featuring a horde of creatures to be cut in half etc...

There's several ways to go about this. One would be to customize the creature to have these abilities (changing the odd feat to allow it to do what you need; even creating your own custom monstrous feat). Now you can have a log weilding giant attacking several squares infront of it self. Alternatively make the environment part of the encounter. At one point a giant jerks on a massive chain which causes crucibles of molten metal pour onto the floor creating spreading areas of hazard. Or make it so after so many rounds have groups of enemies storm into the room. These don't require a special set of rules but make the encounters more memorable than a harder pool of hitpoints. You can also work it in an opposite way. Make reasonable terrain aspects that can be used by the PCs to handle an encounter that might otherwise be too powerful for them. A dragon at the back of a cavern with large stalactites to hide from it's breath weapon as they advance the distance towards it; combat in a distillery contains large vats of flamible spirits that can be ruptured and set aflame; a porticullis can be closed allowing a difficult encounter featuring a horde of creatures to be cut in half etc... The difficult part will be balancing these encounters so you don't weaken the abiltity for mundane characters to keep up with magic users. Often including some elements like the porticullis allow mundanes to perform actions of battlefield control that normally only spellcasters could hope to achieve. And of course the "Rule of Cool"-- if the PCs want to try something reasonable but not covered in the rules come up with some reasonable DCs on the fly and reward them adequately if they succeed.

The difficult part will be balancing these encounters so you don't weaken the abiltity for mundane characters to keep up with magic users. Often including some elements like the porticullis allow mundanes to perform actions of battlefield control that normally only spellcasters could hope to achieve.

[Toy Killer]

Few things:

1) Epic challenges should feel epic. Don't let it be Threat ranges and tank/spank. Change up how the PC's are fighting it. Map out the body to fight on it, give it some parasites or goblins that have taken residence to fight them off. Make it earth shattering in power. Give it abilities that change the environment mid fight.

2) Reactionary attacks. Solo boss fights suffer deeply from the action economy. If the fighter goes up to his ankles, give the beast a reactionary bull rush to push him away. Force them to reconsider the scenario. Don't make it like any other fight.

3) Flavor it up. If it's just a run of the mill monster with special rules, you're going to make it needlessly more complicated for something that nobody cares about. Give warnings about it's existence before going in. Worried cries and hushed whispers about the legendary guardian of Kelpstrend will brood a much better response to the new encounter scenario. Refer to it's death, positively if possible. The players getting the drop on the evil necromancer and the face of him ****ting himself when he realizes they defeated his Faultless creation gives weight to the world, and makes the special rules worth it.

4) Strike the Weakspot for massive damage (or don't). If it can kill the PCs with a few rounds, they need to be able to take it out. No matter what you prepare for the combat, their is likely chances the party will think of something that may be way off in left field. Don't punish them for not guessing your pass code for the monster. If they have an idea, let them roll with it. Okay, so you thought the gaping beating heart of the Zombie Cyclopian overlord was an obvious weak point, but the fighter climbed to his shoulder to stab his eyebeam. Hey, you know what, that works. Give them points for their creativity. Don't let the combat take too long, or they'll get tired of the wait.

5) Stages of Moderation. When I have a climatic Guardian (My go-to big monster boss fights) in mind, I like to think of it as a movie fight. First stage introduces the monster, second stage flexes his abilities, third stage is where he loses. This may or may not work, as again, you need to know how to let combat die when it needs to go. So first stage, the goblins are engaging the party poorly, as they feel rumbling beneath their feet. As the rumbling gets louder, the goblins split in terror. In front of them, the door buckles with a powerful fist, gasping and ripping open the door way. Second stage, The beast uses his awesome strength to use the massive door as a club, making AoE attacks against the party. The party engages him and plan a course of action. The third stage, the party engages the plan and sinks the beast to his grave. And their is much rejoicing.

Hope this helps!

[Curmudgeon]

Make it a better challenge by negating many of the standard tactics.

Fog or other concealment means the creature can't be targeted from a distance.
A very large creature will have its vitals out of reach from the ground, negating precision damage.
Give it mettle and evasion to bypass most spell damage with good saves.
Difficult terrain means Charge attacks are ruled out.
The Elusive Target feat (Complete Warrior, page 110) lets the creature negate Power Attack.

[visigani]

Your best bet is to use cinematics during your "boss fights".

For example... picture a huge ass giant... now give him a properly massive whip he's proficient with.

First round his first attack is a grapple from however far away, his second attack is using the character grappled in the whip to hit ANOTHER character... keeping the first tangled in the whip.

Grab your parties barbarian in said whip and use him to beat your parties fighter and then launch him at the cleric.

This has a "cinematic" feel to it and would be extremely memorable.

You could even create entirely new templates.

For example take your ordinary Hill Giant.. call him "Titanspawn"... give him +12 to str and con, and +4 to mental stats as well as "Superior Powerful Build"... which allows him to act as though he's two size categories larger for what weapons he can wield and for grapple checks.

Start the fight by having him tear a stupidly brave NPC in half at the waist. Twist and yank. And then throw the top half of the body at the spellcaster, and then take a huge slobbering bite out of the thigh of the lower half.
Spit it at a fighter (does no damage, purely to screw with your players).

Is it gory? Sure... but this is the big bad, he's SUPPOSED to be awful.
And you make a large sized big bad awful by making the players feel SMALL.

[AlanBruce]

I am planning an encounter with a truly massive construct (we're talking hundreds of feet high).

The 'encounter' will involve going inside the construct, which will essentially be a dungeon in itself, maintained and guarded inside by smaller constructs. Getting inside will be a battle too, as the construct attempts to smash the party as they climb up to a weak point where they can make an entrance. I haven't worked out the specific details yet, but it will likely involve once inside shutting down parts of it to stop it wrecking cities, leading it away from civilisation and eventually battling its mechanical heart/brain to fully shut it down somewhere it can collapse without harming people.

I salute you for this idea! In my urban campaign, the current arc will culminate in the party facing off against a mad inquisitor and his "Savior"- a gigantic collosus that uses the heads of church in the city as "batteries" through a very old pact made by the city founders. Basically, the weapon was never built when the founders found out how it worked, but what do you know- the blue prints resurfaced and the inquisitor has been getting outside help in its construction.

The idea is a rip off DMC 4 and the enormous construct Dante and Nero fight- The Savior. In my game, the idea is not to fight the thing directly. That would be suicidal, but to get in and take out the batteries inside and face off against the inquisitor (corrupted now, of course).

Sadly, mechanically, I'm at a loss. If you'd like to share how you're building your collosus, I'd love to read up on it!

[Bloodgruve]

I am planning an encounter with a truly massive construct (we're talking hundreds of feet high).

The 'encounter' will involve going inside the construct, which will essentially be a dungeon in itself, maintained and guarded inside by smaller constructs. Getting inside will be a battle too, as the construct attempts to smash the party as they climb up to a weak point where they can make an entrance. I haven't worked out the specific details yet, but it will likely involve once inside shutting down parts of it to stop it wrecking cities, leading it away from civilisation and eventually battling its mechanical heart/brain to fully shut it down somewhere it can collapse without harming people.

Haha, I'm currently running a campaign and this ^ is my endgame encounter.

Based in Eberron. Lords of Dust + Day of Mourning + Overlord's soul powering a 'Godforged'. Destroy Sharn to free itself from Khyber. Battle to get in, climb up, multiple encounters and traps on the way, Big Bad protecting the 'brain'... all that fun stuff wrapped up neat in an epic skill challenge ;)

Blood~

[Mr Adventurer]

In terms of player attacks on huge creatures, as one of those players I've been doing it just by... doing it. By which I mean describing my attacks as acrobatic mega-stabs, jumps, and climbs. My opinion is that you've CHOSEN to describe your attacks in a humdrum way, and I haven't. This makes me the superior being of course ;).

My point is that there's no need to add mechanics. That said, Tome of Battle Tiger Claw manoeuvres are perfect for this.

From the other side, something I've toyed with is the idea of big monsters always Power Attacking for full or something like it. It really plays up the devastating, terrain-destroying nature of big attacks, beyond what the game says that Strength modifier would normally accomplish. It also plays into the standard cinematic way it goes down where the hero never gets hit, because that would be the end of them (and they know it). Look at the Tarrasque: standard attack +57 for 4d8+17. Power Attack for full and that's +9 for 4d8+65...

[AzureKnight]

Something we use for these fights involves charts from advanced dungeons and dragons 2nd edition. within the pages of the dmg is a chart that breaks down total hit points in a given monster or pc.

It gives each body part a set amount of hit points making the fight more realistic. hence after dispencing hps into targets torse arms legs and head, after the party inflicts 50% damage to a leg, have the target make a reflex check at an apprpriate negative to avoid fallind to one knee or fall prone.

The party I run also enjoys the ability to attack a giants hands and arms to make it drop its weapon and after a time make it helpless. Taking all their ropes and such found a way to interrogate the creature and even drag it back to town for a great exp reward for being clever.

[Oko and Qailee]

I didnt get to play much D&D, but I remember one thing a DM did when we were fighting a Ginourmous (thats a size right?) Lizard thing was that the lizard couldn't reach the back of its head with its bite attack, needless to say this made climbing it actually useful.

A player in a campaign Im running tried to climb an ankheg when he was lvl 2, attack of opportunity... he got impaled down to -2hp instead.