monsters exploiting the wizards low will save?

[Harlot]

Hi everybody

I once again need help with challenging the wizard in our group, who as some of you already know is very min/maxed - his real weakness is his willsave (wisdom score is 7)

As the party is trekking in the wild and will enter a dungeon soon, I am in need of monsters like the Green Hag or the like, i.e. monsters that exploit a poor will save.

Also, the group has neither a paladin nor a cleric, so I wonder if there's any undead variants of such monsters?

I'd prefer to use monsters and not other casters as may be the obvious solution: I have kept the game balanced through the use of casters quite a lot recently (and thanks for your advice on that, priceless!) but want to vary my game.

Thanks
/Harlot

[Stux]

Stone Golems?

Immune to magic and can cast Slow SLA once every two turns.

[Czin]

A lich Illusionist should do the job.

[Twilightwyrm]

What level is the party? Depending on their level, you might try an entire Hag Covey (Annis+Green Hag+Sea Hag+assorted minions). The Hag Covey can, together, animate dead, use bestow curse (targets will), control the weather, use Mirage Arcana and Veil (both Illusions that target Will). Individually, the Green hag can cast Pass without Trace and Invisibility at will. The Sea Hag had Horrific Appearance and Evil Eye (both of which have low DCs at 13, but both of which target will), and the Annis has Fog Cloud usable 3/day. So, after fighting some of their undead (zombies/skeletons), you can have the Hags do the following as a preliminary attack. Green Hag casts Invisibility and Pas without Trace on itself, the Sea Hag and the Annis. Annis stays back and readies and action to cast Fog Cloud. Green Hag and the Sea Hag move closer to the party, with the Green Hag readying an action to recast Invisibility on the Sea Hag. Sea Hag breaks invisibility by targeting the wizard with Evil Eye, simultaneously effecting both him and the rest of the party with the Hag's Horrific Appearance. Green Hag uses readied action to cast Invisibility on it again (since it's not at attack, it shouldn't break its invisibility) and the two run away. If the Party looks like they might be following them, the Annis also casts Fog Cloud to make the task even harder, and the Covey escapes. The Wizard has now potentially taken 2d6 Str damage (I'm guessing his Str is not one of his higher stats), and dazed for three days (barring remove curse or dispel evil).

Note: Be careful with this tactic, as if the Wizard fails the Will save against Evil Eye, and then fails the follow-up DC 13 Fort save, he might actually die. Presumably he's taken steps to bump up his Con and Fort Save, but if not, you might want to settle for the Str damage from Horrific Appearence, and his have the Hag chuck a poisoned spear, or dagger, or bottle of acid/alchemist's fire at him to break invisibility. Less potentially lethal that way.

[Harlot]

Thanks for the suggestions: Will absolutely look into stone golems which fit the dungeon nicely.
Like the hag encounter a LOT! Actually I think I'll try to play it pretty much as described. I like the idea of smart enemies using tactics. I think the ECL is a bit too high, so I might just use the hags without minions.

The lich illusionist's flavor is more of wizard than monster IMO, so I'll save him for later. Like the idea, just not for the forthcoming sessions.

The party is level 6, rogue+wizard+barbarian+ranger, pretty basic.

[Stux]

Regular Stone Golems are CR11, so the party may struggle... a single attack from one does an average of 20 damage and has a good chance of hitting.

I'd suggest either having them in a 'puzzle' room, where there is a way to defeat them using the environment once the PCs figure it out, or have it so they are obstacles the PCs have to avoid stealthily, having them walk fixed patterns around a maze of corridors for example.

When they've gained a few more levels it could make it all the more satisfying when they face Stone Golems again but are now able to take them directly.

[Ortesk]

Cast hold person on him and make him sit there....Low will save, no mind blank means hes pitiful against basic mind effects. Or have them fight a min maxed bard, UMD on scroll of dominate person, dominate the wizard and make party have an impromptu gladiator match

[Phaederkiel]

That is nice, hearing about that wizard of yours again...

How is he doing?

I probably would not shoot for a monster with an sla (if you think that you somewhat overused spells, SLA are somewhat very similar) but for something with a good fear effect. How about either

A mummy, cr 5, packing a dc 16 fear effect;

a young adult black dragon has a cr of 9 and a frightening presence with a dc of 19, which is buffable by some degree;

or a barbarian specializing in fear effects? Instantaneous Rage and intimidating Rage combined with imperious command can throw quite a curveball to mr. Wizzy. Combine with zhentarim fighter for even more fun.
(i am not really sure how to calculate the dc for that, perhaps someone knows it?)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Keep in mind that if you use opponents that target Will saves, the rest of the party is just as likely to fail their saves as the Wizard is. It may end up being a far more difficult encounter than you'd planned on for the entire party.

Fear effects are great for low-Will characters. Here's the Fear Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0), which includes many feats, skills, and class features which make use of fear effects, as well as giving a very detailed description of just how fear effects work when used together. Core monsters that use fear effects include the Krenshar, Yeth Hound, Shadow Mastiff, Satyr, Cloaker, Mummy, and certain demons and devils.

There are many other Will save effects, such as an Umber Hulk's confusing gaze, a Harpy's song, a Vampire's charming gaze, a Mind Flayer's mind blast, a Gauth beholder's sleep and inflict wounds eye rays, etc.

[Pickford]

You could use traps in conjunction with some not so difficult themselves monsters. (For example, a sleep trap + kobolds) It's highly unlikely all your PCs will get taken down by the trap, but if they do...just don't introduce the kobolds unless you're all ok with a TPK.

[Benthesquid]

Keep in mind that if you use opponents that target Will saves, the rest of the party is just as likely to fail their saves as the Wizard is.

Not necessarily, if the rest of the party hasn't used wisdom as a dump stat.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Not necessarily, if the rest of the party hasn't used wisdom as a dump stat.

The party is a Rogue, Barbarian, Wizard, and Ranger, all 6th level. The Wizard has a base Will save of +5, with a -2 for Wis, total +3. The other characters have a base Will save of +2, probably with no more than a +1 or +2 Wis, total +4. The Barbarian will get another +2 when raging, but otherwise they're all just as low as the Wizard's.

[Harlot]

hi again!

@ Phaerderkiel: Thanx, the wizard and I go along just fine now. I've listened to all of the superb advice I got: scrollmaking under control, using counterspelling, grapple and weather to control him. Also have simply added opponents with invisibility and/or really fast initiative, flatfooting him and stopping the constant casting invisibility/summon monster one trick pony. Totally works: he's varied his casting and thinking out of the box, I'm pleased and he's not unhappy.

We played last night and I used Twilightwyrms Hag Coven idea. Worked almost too well: It was foggy, so low visibility to mess with the wizard, they were on a narrow path in a swamp, so limited moveability: Two Annis cast disguise self, posed as sisters lost in the wildernes and attacked the party with an initially invisible Green Hag in tow. They attacked using (improved) grapple, which was yet another severe challenge.
The party made it, barely.
They currently have two rather highpowered NPCs with them, which I played defensively, so they wouldn't steal the spotlight. The NPCs were ofcourse the difference between the outcome and a TPK.
Great fun, so thanks for the idea!

back on topic: Thanks for all of your help:

The party is a Rogue, Barbarian, Wizard, and Ranger, all 6th level. The Wizard has a base Will save of +5, with a -2 for Wis, total +3. The other characters have a base Will save of +2, probably with no more than a +1 or +2 Wis, total +4. The Barbarian will get another +2 when raging, but otherwise they're all just as low as the Wizard's.
True, the Wizard willsave REALLY sucks, but the others dumped wisdom for str/dex too, so per tradition this party is ugly and socially awkward.
So yeah, hadn't thought of it being a problem for the entire group... rethinking strategies..

@Stux: A puzzle room (or rather a puzzle tomb, kindly refered to me in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=308121)) is the EXACT plan :-) They'll reach it next session and filling it with monsters was half the reason for starting this thread.

After all of your kind responses I am pretty sure it'll feature:


Level adjusted Stone Golems- I'll make the stone statues instead, lower them 3-4 levels, CR app. 7.
Traps and small animated objects (lowlevel) (thanks Pickford!) On that note, can you animate any object? Because I want to animate daggers.
A mummy. Maybe more than one. I wasn't sure what to put in the center room. Now I know.


As for fear and fear effects in general, thanks, may not use a lot next session, but I've taken note and will save it for later! And yes, I ought to, at least ONCE dominate the wizard. Hmm. Is that what you mean by the vampires charming gaze, Biffoniacus_Furiou? Fits the theme! Lovely.

Thank you again for all of your advice, as always it is really appreciated and put to great use!

/Harlot