[3.5] Playing a Dragon :D Suggest some builds, Would you Kindly

[ZiggZagg]

Alright, so, as the thread is titled, I am going to be playing a Red Dragon character in the near future in an upcoming campaign. That being said, the DM has wisely done away with the nonesense that is 3.5's rules for playing monsters, and we were able to dig up this:


HD:d12
{TABLE]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Feature
1 | +1 | +2|+0 |+2 |Red Dragon body, Arcane blood, +1 Str
2| +2| +3|+0 |+3 | Keen senses, Fire Breath
3| +3| +3|+1| +3| Blindsense 60 feets, Str+1, Con+1
4| +4| +4| +1|+4 | Wings
5| +5| +4| +1| +4| Tail slap, Growth
6| +6| +5|+2 |+5 | Sugestion, +1 Cha
7| +7| +5| +2| +5| +1 Str, +1 Con, Firey Arcana
8| +8| +6| +2| +5| Locate Object, +1 Cha
9| +9| +6|+3 |+6| +1 str, +1 con, Greed
10| +10| +7|+3 |+7 | Fire Lord, +1 Cha
11| +11| +7| +3|+7 | Arcane Skin
12| +12| +8| +4|+8 | Iron Scales, +1 Str, +1 Con
13| +13| +8| +4| +8| Growth, crush, Frightfull presence
14| +14| +9| +4| +9| +1 Str, +1 Con, Hellfire
15| +15| +9| +5| +9| Burn, +1 Cha
16| +16| +10| +5| +10| +1 str, +1 con, Firey Arcana
17| +17| +10| +5|+10 | Revenge, +1 Cha
18| +18| +11|+6 |+11 | +1 str, +1 con, Find the Path
19 | +19| +11| +6| +11| Wrath, +1 Str, +1 Cha
20| +20| +12| +6| +12| Growth, tail sweep, Discern location

[/TABLE]
2 Skill points+int per level, quadruple at 1st level. Class skills: Concentration, climb, jump, spot, listen, apraise, intimidate, Knowledge(any), spellcraft.

Proefeciencies: a red dragon isn't proefecient with any armor or weapons, besides his own natural weapons.


Features:
Dragon Body: The red dragon loses all other racial bonuses, and gains Dragon traits, fire subtype, bite 1d8 damage+Str mod, 2 claws attack for 1d6 +1/2 Str mod damage each and 40 base speed, medium size. The Red dragon has wings, but they're too weak to do anything for now. His claws are capable of fine manipulation and can be used for somatic components of spellcasting or anything else a human hand could do.

The red dragon also gets a natural armor bonus of 2+Con modifier. Whenever the red dragon grows one size category, his natural armor increases by a further 1.


The red dragon has immunity to fire, but takes 50% more damage from cold attacks.

Arcane Blood:A red dragon receives spells known and spells per day as a bard of same level, but he casts as a sorceror and takes his spells known from the sorceror/wizard spell list.

If it multiclasses as a bard it's spellcasting increases as a bard.
If it multiclasses as a sorceror it counts as already having sorceror casting depending on it's dragon level, as shown on the following table.

{table]Dragon level | Virtual sorceror casting
1|-
2|1
3|2
4|3
5|4
6|5
7|6
8|6
9|7
10|8
11|8
12|9
13|10
14|10
15|11
16|12
17|12
18|13
19|13
20|13
[/table]

So for example a dragon 2 who takes a level of sorceror would count as already having 1 level of sorceror and gains the spell slots and spell knowns that a sorceror gains when leveling from level 1 to 2, but not the spell slots and spell knowns from the 1st level of sorceror. He would get the familiar ability, but dragon levels wouldn't count for it.

A dragon 18 who takes a level of sorceror would count as having 14 levels of sorceror(13+1) and gain the spell slots and spell knowns that a sorceror gains when leveling from level 13 to 14, but not the spell slots and spell knowns that a sorceror gets from level 1 to 13, He would get the familiar ability, but dragon levels wouldn't count for it.

His Caster level remains equal to his full HD when multiclassing to sorceror.

If a dragon takes a casting prc, it may choose to advance his casting as that of a sorceror. So a dragon 10/loremaster 10 would cast as a 18th level sorceror (he would still receive spell slots and spells knowns from a bard 10 from the first 10 dragon levels and then the spell slots and spell knowns from a sorceror 11-18 for the loremaster levels)


Ability score increase: The red dragon ability scores increase by the shown amount.

{table]Level | Total bonus gained
1|+1 Str
3 | +2 Str, +1 Con
6 | +2 Str, +1 Con, +1 Cha
7 | +3 Str, +2 Con, +1 Cha
8 | +3 Str, +2 Con, +2 Cha
9 | +4 Str, +3 Con, +2 Cha
10 | +4 Str, +3 Con, +3 Cha
12 | +5 Str, +4 Con, +3 Cha
12 | +6 Str, +5 Con, +3 Cha
15 | +6 Str, +5 Con, +4 Cha
16 | +7 Str, +6 Con, +4 Cha
17 | +7 Str, +6 Con, +5 Cha
18 | +8 Str, +7 Con, +5 Cha
19 | +9 Str, +7 Con, +6 Cha

[/table]
NOTE:this table presents the TOTAL bonus gained for ease of keeping count! Don't add the values from diferent levels!

Keen senses:At 2nd level the red dragon sees four times as well as a human in shadowy illumination and twice as well in normal light. It also has darkvision out to 120 feet.

Fire Breath:At 2nd level the red dragon can fire a cone of 30 feet dealing 1d6 fire damage/HD with DC ref of 10+1/2 HD+Con modifier for half every 1d4 turns. Cone increases by 5 feets with each extra HD the player takes from here.

Blindsense:as the normal ability, range 60 feets.


Wings:At 4th level the red dragon becomes able to fly at the speed of 10 feets per HD, with poor maneuverability. The maneuverability doesn't increase naturaly, but players can take the Savage Species feat that increases it by two steps(stackable). Each wing can also be now used to deliver a natural atack dealing 1d4+1/2 str mod damage.

Growth:At 5th level the red dragon grows to large size.
At 13th level the red dragon grows to huge size.
At 20th level the red dragon grows to gargantuan size.

His AC, bonus to hit, base damage, grapple and skills change acordingly, but he doesn't get any ability score bonus or penalties.

Tail slap:The red dragon can now make a tail slap attack dealing 1d8 +1,5 str modifier damage (already taking in acount large size).

Red dragon SLAs:At 6th level the red dragon can use Sugestion as a SLA 1/day per 3 HD it has.

At 8th level it can use locate object as a SLA 1/day per 4 HD it has.

Save DCs are 10+1/2 HD+Cha mod.

Firey Arcana: At 7th and 16th level the red dragon adds any sorceror/wizard spell with the fire descriptor of a level he can cast to his list of spells known.

Greed:At 9th level a red dragon can instantly discern the monetary value of any objects in his view. He can also memorize the number and type of each item and notice if anything is missing or added to that group of items with a new glance.

Fire Lord:At 10th level a red dragon casts spells with the [Fire] descriptor at +2 caster level and ignores any limit on caster level on such spells.


Arcane skin: At 11th level the red dragon gains SR equal to his HD+11.

Iron Scales: At 12th level the red dragon gains DR/magic equal to half his HD.

Crush: At 13th level the dragon can make a crush attack dealing 2d8 damage base, already taking in acount huge size
This special attack allows a flying or jumping dragon of at least Huge size to land on opponents as a standard action, using its whole body to crush them. Crush attacks are effective only against opponents three or more size categories smaller than the dragon (though it can attempt normal overrun or grapple attacks against larger opponents).

A crush attack affects as many creatures as can fit under the dragon’s body. Creatures in the affected area must succeed on a Reflex save (DC equal to that of the dragon’s breath weapon) or be pinned, automatically taking bludgeoning damage during the next round unless the dragon moves off them. If the dragon chooses to maintain the pin, treat it as a normal grapple attack. Pinned opponents take damage from the crush each round if they don’t escape.

A crush attack deals the indicated damage plus 1½ times the dragon’s Strength bonus (round down).

Frightfull presence:The ability takes effect automatically whenever the dragon attacks, charges, or flies overhead. Enemies within a radius of 30 feet × half the dragon's level are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than the dragon. A potentially affected enemy that succeeds on a Will save (DC 10 + ½ dragon’s HD + dragon’s Cha modifier) remains immune to that dragon’s frightful presence for 24 hours. On a failure, enemies with 4 or less HD become panicked for 4d6 rounds and those with 5 or more HD become shaken for 4d6 rounds. Dragons ignore the frightful presence of other dragons.

Hellfire: At 14th level the red dragon's flame burns hotter than anyone can measure. The red dragon's breath weapon ignores fire resistance from any target equal to his own HD. If a creature is immune to fire, the red dragon's breath weapon still deals damage equal to the red dragon's HD, reflex save for half.

Burn:At 16th level, as a free action a number of times per day equal to his Cha mod, the Red Dragon can make his breath weapon persist and keep dealing damaging on the same area. This lasts for a number of rounds equal to the dragon's HD, but deals 1 less damage dice for every turn that passes.

Revenge: At 17th level, whenever the red dragon is damaged or hindered in any way by an oponent, he automatically knows that oponent's location for 1 round. If the red dragon can't actually see this oponent then he still counts as having total concealment against the red dragon.


Find the path:At 18th level the red dragon can now use find the path as a SLA 1/day for each 5HD it has.

Wrath:At 19th level, 1/day the red dragon can enter a state of pure destructive rage as a free action. He gains an enanchment bonus on attack and damage rolls, to Str, Con and Cha equal to 1/3 his HD. This rage lasts 3+(enanched) Con mod rounds, after wich the Red Dragon is exhausted.


Tail sweep:This special attack allows a dragon of at least Gargantuan size to sweep with its tail as a standard action. The sweep affects a half-circle with a radius of 30 feet (or 40 feet for a Colossal dragon), extending from an intersection on the edge of the dragon’s space in any direction. Creatures within the swept area are affected if they are four or more size categories smaller than the dragon. A tail sweep automatically deals 2d6 plus 1½ times the dragon’s Strength bonus (round down). Affected creatures can attempt Reflex saves to take half damage (DC equal to that of the dragon’s breath weapon).

Discern location:the red dragon can now use discern location as a SLA 1/day for each 5HD it has.




This is most likely what I will be using, though I think I may be recommending some changes, based on personal preference, such as the ability to ignore CL limits with spells, and the ability to bypass Fire Resistance and Immunity (I hate One-upsmanship). With this in mind, what would YOU do if you were playing in a campaign, such as this. These are the things to keep in mind:

1. Multiclassing out is legal, but I am planning on staying with the class as much as possible just for flavor's sake. That being said, I am open to suggestions if you think there are some good opportunities for prestiging into something fun. Personally, I was actually thinking of Blood Magus.

2. The campaign will be held in Oriental Adventures (the Japanese/Anime book from 3.0) so anything from there is open, as well as pretty much everything other splat, Dragon Magazine article, and so on. Only things that are banned are source material, such as Eberron and Forgotten Realms

3. I, personally, am thinking of a sort of hybrid between a few roles. I have not decided exactly how I am going to go forward. Hence why I want to know what others would do. There is some obvious potential for frontline mayhem, and crowd control, while not AS effective, is still viable, I think. Be creative and let me know what you think :-D

That's all, for now. GO!

[ZiggZagg]

No one has any ideas on how they would build a dragon?

[Vaz]

Oriental Adventures is mostly based on a more Anime style Rokugan: in general doing away with Dragons as you know and replacing them with the lesser powered Lung Dragons (although still powerful), the Carp Dragons are the young form, and they are fairly terrible with no Dragon-like abilities.

I don't have too much to say regarding 'one upmanship': the game is an arms race.

An Charger can kill a BBEG in one hit: so BBEG gets more HP, or flat out becomes immune to its attacks (Ironguard), a Red Dragon is still capable with its spells (Breath Weapon Suslbstitution is a a spell after all) and melee routine.

[Vortenger]

First off, where did you dig up this build stub, exactly? Its seems way, way, way more powerful than a standard dragon build.

-Most egregious offender: two baked in size increases without restrictions. So, in total you're gaining +25 Str (16 from size, 9 from class), +11 Con,and -4 Dex. This makes even a fully tricked out bear warrior ubercharger do a double-take (as he needs to, you know, rage. You don't).
-Spellcasting: Not only are you putting the barb to shame, but you are a reasonable gish with +6 to primary stat baked in. Compare your spells overall to a duskblade, and see you have nearly as many castings and a far better list with no investment.
-Breath: Compare to DFA or Dragon Shaman. Yours is stupid strong. It's only fire, sure, but an unlimited 1d6 per HD every 1d4 rounds forever? No one has that. The two complementary abilities are unprecedented. Lingering Breath, but better. The anti-fire-resist on your breath is searing spell with no adjustment and nerfs one of your only weaknesses (fire res)
-NA: Tied to Con mod and as pointed out, that gets to be a bit high for no investment. Compare to other armor enhancing classes (Ninja, Monk, Swordsage, DFA) and your numbers look sarcastic.
-Saves: The Good Ones. No complaint, just very min-maxxed.

Most of the rest of the class is just a superior gish/natural attack chassis. I don't see too many other things snipe worthy.

So, to sum up: you are stronger than a raging barbarian, a better gish than the duskblade, a better breath user than either the breath classes, have a better chassis to build off of than any base class. The only downside? You're huge. To be fair, you probably only rank as a tier 2 due to overall versatility, but any other non tier 1 or 2 class will be overshadowed by you within seconds.

Pretty sure no one has answered the query the way you hoped because you brought us a monty haul class to examine. Its ridiculously strong in comparison with other classes which already 'Do That Thing'. Its is also very much NOT what WoTC put forward as How To Play Your Dragon (tm), nor have you cited a source for us to examine the base writing. This class is poorly designed. If your DM allows it, go for it.

Finally, I don't see any 'wisdom' in dispensing with monster rules. The reason level adjustment is a thing is because it needs to be. Is it perfect? Hell no. It is good, however, that I can't be a level 1 minotaur barb with full stats, though. Or a black ethergaunt wizard, even more so.

[ArqArturo]

Hmm, could a dragon benefit from Maneuvers?.

[ZiggZagg]

Sorry, thought it pulled over the size chart. The ability modifiers for size increases are removed, from what I have seen with the progression. As for the breath weapon, I do not think it it that much better than a DFA or a Warlock. Mine recharges 1d4 rounds. Average 2. Both classes, if they use their ability back to back, will be able to do comparable damage. I could be looking at it, wrong, and there will be times when I get the recharge in one round, but there will be other times that I have to wait 4 rounds, in which a Warlock or Dragonfire Adept blasts away each turn, probably surpassing the damage.

I will very much agree about the ability that bypasses fire resistance. I think that ability is dumb, and I am going to recommend the DM remove it, and quite possibly the ability to set an area on fire, or at the very least modify it to work like Lingering Breath.

As for the other stat modifiers, with the slow progression and the low number of spells known, I do not think it will be that big of an issue. On top of that, to increase my stats further, I have to find someone willing to make items for a dragon (I do not know if this will be an issue or not. Depends on how the DM works dragons into the society.)

Oh, and this build came from this site. Should be this one:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165439

[Red Fel]

Hmm, could a dragon benefit from Maneuvers?.

If I recall correctly, an option on the Wyrm of War archetype lets you swap spell slots for maneuvers, and treat your caster level as your IL.

But I don't know all that much about Dragon Archetypes, apart from the fact that people seem to swear by Loredrake and Wyrm of War.

[Vortenger]

Sorry, thought it pulled over the size chart. The ability modifiers for size increases are removed, from what I have seen with the progression. As for the breath weapon, I do not think it it that much better than a DFA or a Warlock. Mine recharges 1d4 rounds. Average 2. Both classes, if they use their ability back to back, will be able to do comparable damage. I could be looking at it, wrong, and there will be times when I get the recharge in one round, but there will be other times that I have to wait 4 rounds, in which a Warlock or Dragonfire Adept blasts away each turn, probably surpassing the damage.
...
As for the other stat modifiers, with the slow progression and the low number of spells known, I do not think it will be that big of an issue. On top of that, to increase my stats further, I have to find someone willing to make items for a dragon (I do not know if this will be an issue or not. Depends on how the DM works dragons into the society.)

Oh, and this build came from this site. Should be this one:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165439

I normally have great respect for Oslecamo, but not on this account. You are correct about the size and stat modifiers, but thats almost more strange, as I'd failed to notice the third size increase before. So your net benefit (accounting for size) is Str -15, Dex -4, -5 Con, +6 Cha, AC and to-hit -4 more. But you're gargantuan, so... I'm not sure what I think about that, need to dwell on it. Also have the issue of not fitting in dungeons. Curiously you do not have any age categories mentioned, so you are not a true dragon, it seems. No Loredrake or Wyrm of War for you.

The Dragon Shaman has the same breath mechanics, bit at a rate of 1d6/2 levels recharge 1d4, available level 4. Half. The DFA can use theirs every round, with effect, at 1d6/ 2 levels. Half. Breath is ALL they do... Yours is not comparable. I would say the class would balance out better if you set the breath to the same standard as other classes: at 1d6/2 levels. You still end out as a bogusly powerful gish, with access to all the goodies dragons bring to the table. So, still OP (compared to any melee, and you are a full BAB class), but not stupid OP.

Making items for a dragon is not any more difficult than for anyone else. You just have more options. Remember that magic items resize and shape to fit their users, weapons and armor notwithstanding. You do tentatively gain a tail slot, as there are a number of items specific to it. Also Jaws of the Dragon does not take up a slot. So thats an improvement, not a problem.

[SotF]

Dragons did have some unique rules for playing them in the Draconomicon, those really ought to give some good guidelines for balancing them out, possibly even with a savage progression type thing.

Though I'd assume that almost any dragon would have an early LA problem

[Forrestfire]

Also, Dragon Magazine #320 has official monster classes for chromatic dragons, from 1-20, including the correct LAs, if you want to use those.

Otherwise, my best suggestion for being a dragon is simply a refluffed Raptoran or Dragonborn (Wings) Psychic Warrior. Call it a dragon that has more control over its form than most.

You get:

Size increases (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm) ("returning to normal form")
Stat increases (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/animalAffinity.htm)
Breath weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/breathoftheBlackDragon.htm)
Natural attacks. Maybe refluff the Soulbound Weapon ACF (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) to give you undefined natural weapons (e.g. a claw and a bite one round, a tail slap and a wing attack another, all just using the stats of whatever weapon you decide to summon). Or you could just use the claws of the beast and bite of the wolf powers.
A host of other abilities to emulate other random dragon traits.

[Vortenger]

... As for the breath weapon, I do not think it it that much better than a DFA or a Warlock. Mine recharges 1d4 rounds. Average 2. Both classes, if they use their ability back to back, will be able to do comparable damage. I could be looking at it, wrong, and there will be times when I get the recharge in one round, but there will be other times that I have to wait 4 rounds, in which a Warlock or Dragonfire Adept blasts away each turn, probably surpassing the damage.

Sorry, this niggles me. A DFA or Warlock does half the damage you do. It takes two rounds worth of actions to equal one of yours. Actions are the strongest currency in any of the 3.X systems. So while they're winding up for their second swing, you've already done the damage and are power attacking for 10, or slinging spells, or awakening your frightful presence, whatever. And hey, if you roll well, you'll be doing 4x their damage in a two round period. Point being, you've made them useless each round they spend catching up. Way to invalidate two classes entirely.

On a similar note, the dragon shaman's breath attack has the same recharge as yours, comes online at level 4 (late), and does half the damage with no hope of breaking through resistance. You're not even in the same ballpark. Sorry, man. Any way you compare it, that breath is too good, as written.

[Coidzor]

Hmm, annoying, someone started putting together a handbook on the information about dragon PCs and options for them, but now I'm not able to hunt it up to provide the link.

Ah, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=303204)it is.

[Ortesk]

Well pick up the feats which reduce recharge time, 1d4-2 so average blowing every round. Basically if its not immune to fire, you win. Get some boosts to fly maneuverability and just do passing swipes. Use spells for buffing yourself, and your rock. You have stupid power, if you dont optimize you can just coast and be fine

[ZiggZagg]

I would not be able to use the archetypes in either case, as I believe they are from Eberron. No Eberron content allowed.


As for the damage VS the Dragon Disciple, I forgot about them, and yes, the Breath Weapon is strong vs theirs. I still do not see the argument for the Dragon Fire Adept, as they can keep up in damage and add other effects without additional feats. But I digress, and that is not what I came to talk about. Also, again, the ability scores are changed only by what the table says. Size modifiers are removed. This is not unprecedented. They took them out as an obvious balancing factor.

Ok, so you feel the class is overpowered. I will make mention of it to the DM to consider either buffing the players that choose not to be dragons, or perhaps making changes to this one.

Now, with that in mind, and going forward, how would you proceed with building the character?

[WhamBamSam]

Hmm, annoying, someone started putting together a handbook on the information about dragon PCs and options for them, but now I'm not able to hunt it up to provide the link.

Ah, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=303204)it is.I was just about to show up and shamelessly self promote. :smalltongue: The handbook deals more with wringing usability out of the standard monster rules, and his dragon class is different in a number of ways, but he might still get some use out of it.

As for specific advice for this homebrew class, ask your DM if he'll allow an Ur Priest follower of Tiamat (Tiamat believes that everything should be under the control of Evil Dragons, presumably including the powers of the other, lesser, gods.) If you can, then go
Red Dragon 15/Ur Priest 2/Contemplative 1/Unholy Ravager of Tiamat 2. At 19th level you convert your racial sorc casting into Ur Priest casting, getting you 9ths, and at 20th level you can use any energy type on your breath weapon and get another caster level for good measure.

Just noticed that the size increases were removed, so you wouldn't qualify for Unholy Ravager's Tempest Breath prerequisite, as you won't be large. A Divine Conversion build might still be viable through, say, Dispassionate Watcher of Chronepsis, though now I think about it, cheesing out a homebrew class your DM was nice enough to provide you with like that is kind of bad form. I'd probably either duck out into full casting progression through PrCs at 10th level to snag 9ths, or just play the thing to level 20 or close to it, maybe making a few of the standard melee dips (Pouncebarian/Cloistered Cleric/whatever) and/or two level auto-qualification dips that I mention in the handbook.

I would recommend at least the Cloistered Cleric dip for Devotion/Divine feats. Knowledge Devotion, Divine Might, and the like are great with 6 attacks per round from level 6 (and potentially more attacks if you make some effort on that front), Travel Devotion is always nice, and you'll have a huge Cha score to fuel Turn Attempts and power Divine Might.

[Srasy]

1. Get alternate form take half dragon form (its a feat) turn into constrictor naga ( I think dragons can get alternate form through a small feat chain)
2. Get lore-drake sorcerer then abjurant champion maybe urpriest and theurge
3. Get rapidstrike craven and a source of precision damage and pounce also shock trooper
4. Take leadership and be a mount for all the cheese

[Coidzor]

Oh, OP, why a Red Dragon? Any particular reason or just that was the first dragon class to get found and approved?


1. Get alternate form take half dragon form (its a feat) turn into constrictor naga ( I think dragons can get alternate form through a small feat chain)
2. Get lore-drake sorcerer then abjurant champion maybe urpriest and theurge
3. Get rapidstrike craven and a source of precision damage and pounce also shock trooper
4. Take leadership and be a mount for all the cheese

The only way to get alternate form on a dragon that doesn't come with it requires a feat from Eberron, more's the pity. Alternate Form, Half-Dragon Form, and Hidden Strength are all from Dragons of Eberron, same as the Sovereign Archetypes.

Unlike the Sovereign Archetypes it's rather trivial to lift them out of the book without even needing to refluff, but a restriction is a restriction. :/

[ZiggZagg]

Red Dragon, because they are my favorite ones.

And the class does give size increase. Just not the ability score changes that go along with it. It is in the ability "Growth." Tops out at Gargantuan. That might be a bit excessive, and the DM might do away with that, but I think I could get to at least huge.

Thanks for the ideas, so far :D Keep 'em coming!