Crystal Shard - Great Psionic Power... or the Greates Psionic Power?

[visigani]

No save, no power resistance, requires only a ranged touch attack, and deals piercing damage (which virtually nothing is outright immune to).

And it's a first level power.

The reason I'm going on about this power is the fact that it can be useful in almost every single combat encounter, in almost every single round, against virtually any opponent.... and it remains just as useful even into epic levels.
In fact, if you want to make the investment, this ability could get a +3 boost to manifester level every round via overchannel and talented

Then toss metapsionics into the mix... and once you hit epic levels (say lvl 30) on a double crit you're looking around 1.2k damage... for an expenditure of 30 power points. And again, that's virtually unresistable.

That's not bad for a lvl 1 power.

[Rubik]

Swarm of Crystals is, in some ways, better. No save, no SR, no attack rolls, no energy resistances. It's just slashing damage to a cone AoE with no defenses at all. The only problem is that the damage is mediocre without action economy and metapsionics shenanigans, and you have to be within 15' (or 30', with Widen power).

[edit] And Hail of Crystals is even better.

[AmberVael]

[edit] And Hail of Crystals is even better.

Not really. It does a bit more damage, but you have to make a touch attack and it offers a reflex save, and only a shaper gets it- everyone else spends a feat. You're better off just picking up Swarm of Crystals and Widen Power if you want to hit a big area, or twin power if you want to deal more damage with it.

[Rubik]

Not really. It does a bit more damage, but you have to make a touch attack and it offers a reflex save, and only a shaper gets it- everyone else spends a feat. You're better off just picking up Swarm of Crystals and Widen Power if you want to hit a big area, or twin power if you want to deal more damage with it.I meant that it's better than Crystal Shard.

[Karnith]

One downside of Crystal Shard is that unlike most spells/powers it's subject to Damage Reduction, because Complete Psionic is a silly, silly book.

[AmberVael]

I meant that it's better than Crystal Shard.

I'd disagree there too. Yes, Hail does some damage in an area, which is cool- but it is higher level, harder to get, and deals about 3.5 damage more even in the most optimal situation at level 9... and then gets outpaced by Crystal Shard in a handful of levels. Given that it needs a touch attack and a reflex save to do that damage, its ability to surpass Crystal Shard is fairly limited, despite being a power four levels higher.

I feel you're better off just taking Crystal Shard. All Hail offers is a bit of extra range and mediocre splash damage, at the cost of being more easily resisted and dealing less damage. You're better off either going high damage on a single target with Crystal Shard, guaranteed damage in a small area with Swarm of Crystals, or just taking a gamble to do more damage with an Energy Wave.

[visigani]

One downside of Crystal Shard is that unlike most spells/powers it's subject to Damage Reduction, because Complete Psionic is a silly, silly book.

While it is subject to damage reduction in some instances, it's not subject to spell resistance. This means it's useful against Golems, which can be a pain in the ass for casters if they aren't prepared for them.

That bit alone, completely ignoring spell resistance? That's worth its weight in some ways.

A level 20 crystal shard from a psion will hit a balor on anything greater than a 5 assuming the psion has 10 Dexterity and will *on average* cleave off around 25% of its hitpoints. That's a naked Crystal Shard. No Shenanigans, no buffs, just out the box.

You can't say that about a lot of level 1 abilities...

[AmberVael]

Yeah, Crystal Shard is a pretty cool first level power. It is pretty much always going to be useful, and is more reliable than many other damage powers... it's basically Orb of Force Lite.

I do like Swarm of Crystals better though, because it basically can't fail. There's something really satisfying about no attack, no save, no power resistance, not even antimagic, just take damage. Yeah, the damage isn't amazing, but it's still hilarious.

[TuggyNE]

While it is subject to damage reduction in some instances, it's not subject to spell resistance. This means it's useful against Golems, which can be a pain in the ass for casters if they aren't prepared for them.

That bit alone, completely ignoring spell resistance? That's worth its weight in some ways.

A level 20 crystal shard from a psion will hit a balor on anything greater than a 5 assuming the psion has 10 Dexterity and will *on average* cleave off around 25% of its hitpoints. That's a naked Crystal Shard. No Shenanigans, no buffs, just out the box.

You can't say that about a lot of level 1 abilities...

Psionics in general scales a bit differently than spells, though, since you're paying almost exactly as much as for a 9th-level power. Specifically, 20 pp and a first-level power known instead of 20 pp and a ninth-level power known. And, while powers known is not exactly a meaningless limitation, for many purposes it's less significant than pp usage.

[Mithril Leaf]

While it is subject to damage reduction in some instances, it's not subject to spell resistance. This means it's useful against Golems, which can be a pain in the ass for casters if they aren't prepared for them.

That bit alone, completely ignoring spell resistance? That's worth its weight in some ways.

A level 20 crystal shard from a psion will hit a balor on anything greater than a 5 assuming the psion has 10 Dexterity and will *on average* cleave off around 25% of its hitpoints. That's a naked Crystal Shard. No Shenanigans, no buffs, just out the box.

You can't say that about a lot of level 1 abilities...

Or you could use the same amount of PP to dominate with a similar success rate. Tell me which you'd rather do.

[Psyren]

One downside of Crystal Shard is that unlike most spells/powers it's subject to Damage Reduction, because Complete Psionic is a silly, silly book.

Why is that silly? If you're throwing a non-magical chunk of crystal at someone, I'd expect things like DR, incorporeality and regen to apply. All the magic/psionics do is make your shard harder and sharper.

If you wanted it to be purely magical then it should also be subject to PR and NPF.


Or you could use the same amount of PP to dominate with a similar success rate. Tell me which you'd rather do.

Dominating a Balor is a rather silly strategy due to their Unholy Aura.

[Karnith]

Why is that silly?
It's silly because it's a rule that only applies to psionics (well, to metacreativity, anyway); there is to the best of my knowledge no corresponding rule for spells.

Also, Complete Psionic is a silly, silly book for a number of other reasons.

[Psyren]

It's silly because it's a rule that only applies to psionics (well, to metacreativity, anyway); there is no corresponding rule for spells.

Honestly, I view that as a problem with other sources that don't follow this rule, not with CPsi. Again, it makes sense to me that if you're doing nonmagical slashing/piercing/bludgeoning damage, that DR should be effective against it.



Also, Complete Psionic is a silly, silly book for a number of other reasons, as well.

I definitely agree there, but this rule isn't one of them. Dreamscarred Press even brought it over to PF, with the admonishment to the DM that they either make it apply to spells and powers equally, or not be used at all. They wouldn't have done so if they didn't think it made sense either.

[Karnith]

Honestly, I view that as a problem with other sources that don't follow this rule, not with CPsi. Again, it makes sense to me that if you're doing nonmagical slashing/piercing/bludgeoning damage, that DR should be effective against it.
I'm not saying that it doesn't make sense for the damage from certain powers to be subject to DR, I'm saying that it's silly that the rule applies to powers but not to spells. It's silly because it's inconsistent, not because I don't follow/agree with the reasoning for it.

[Psyren]

Okay, I understand you. But again, I think the silliness is on the part of the spells, not CPsi.

Here is the suggestion for DMs from Psionics Unleashed:


Damage Reduction and Powers

Just like spells, psionic powers and psi-like abilities are not subject to damage reduction. However, official rulings have been made that spells that deal a type of physical damage (bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing) are subject to damage reduction for the damage dealt of a physical type. It is important for game balance reasons that in either situation, that the rule be applied uniformly: either spells and powers that deal damage of a physical type are affected by damage reduction, or spells and powers that deal damage of a physical type are not affected by damage reduction. It should not be applied to one and not the other.

Some powers affected by this ruling include crystal shard, hail of crystals, and swarm of crystals.

Some spells affected by this ruling include ice storm and storm of vengeance.

[Rhatahema]

If I'm remembering right, Psionics Unleashed is a Pathfinder compatable product and that text addresses a Paizo FAQ ruling that spells, Sp, and Su abilities which deal physical damage are subject to damage reduction. In 3.5, spells that deal physical damage are not subject to damage reduction.

Personally, I think both rulings fall short of what makes sense. My suggestion would be that spells/powers that deal physical damage should be subject to damage reduction, but should always count as magic for that purpose. Likewise, the damage should count as having an alignment descriptor the same as the spell (if any) and/or the same as the alignment subtype possessed by the caster (if any). It would make a good metamagic feat or augmentation to let you treat them as special materials for that purpose as well.

Of course, force damage just makes things a lot simpler. Hard to say why force damage is not physical damage though. Kind of silly.

[Psyren]

If I'm remembering right, Psionics Unleashed is a Pathfinder compatable product and that text addresses a Paizo FAQ ruling that spells, Sp, and Su abilities which deal physical damage are subject to damage reduction. In 3.5, spells that deal physical damage are not subject to damage reduction.

That is correct - but I was talking about the way things should be, not the way they are.



Personally, I think both rulings fall short of what makes sense. My suggestion would be that spells/powers that deal physical damage should be subject to damage reduction, but should always count as magic for that purpose.

Yeah, that's a fair ruling.



Likewise, the damage should count as having an alignment descriptor the same as the spell (if any) and/or the same as the alignment subtype possessed by the caster (if any).

I would go with the former. For spells that aren't innately subtyped, there are the metamagics in BoED/BoVD to grant them that ability.



Of course, force damage just makes things a lot simpler. Hard to say why force damage is not physical damage though. Kind of silly.

Force isn't just physical though, which is why it can harm ghosts and other intangible creatures. What it is exactly isn't easy to explain though, we can really only point to examples.

[Rhatahema]

Force isn't just physical though, which is why it can harm ghosts and other intangible creatures. What it is exactly isn't easy to explain though, we can really only point to examples.

Well, my feeling is that force effects that cause damage typically cause damage as physical things would. So a blast of force deals damage through impact (bludgeoning), a blade barrier cuts things (slashing), a magic missile creates energy darts that presumably pierce and/or burst (bludgeoning/piercing). If I were to revise the rules, I might ditch "force damage" and instead link the force descriptor to physical damage types, modifying them to overcome DR and Incorporeal miss chance.

Anyway, sorry to go off on a tangent. I'd say Crystal Shard is a very good psionic power, but probably not the "Greatest Psionic Power".

[Ansem]

I'm loving crystal shard because its essentially 1d6/ML (+1 with overchannel!)
If only I had sufficient ray spells I would have taken Split Psionic Ray...
I've yet to use any more powers on my Psion other than Entangling Ectoplasm and Crystal Shard.

[visigani]

Or you could use the same amount of PP to dominate with a similar success rate. Tell me which you'd rather do.

As someone pointed out below there are a number of barriers to dominating a balor... will save, spell/power resistance, and there's always the fact that mind control spells are barred from controlling the Balor.

The most significant thing though is that it's a first level power.

For psionics every ability has to get a LOT of utility because you get so few.

[Ansem]

Okay, I understand you. But again, I think the silliness is on the part of the spells, not CPsi.

Here is the suggestion for DMs from Psionics Unleashed:


Damage Reduction and Powers

Just like spells, psionic powers and psi-like abilities are not subject to damage reduction. However, official rulings have been made that spells that deal a type of physical damage (bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing) are subject to damage reduction for the damage dealt of a physical type. It is important for game balance reasons that in either situation, that the rule be applied uniformly: either spells and powers that deal damage of a physical type are affected by damage reduction, or spells and powers that deal damage of a physical type are not affected by damage reduction. It should not be applied to one and not the other.

Some powers affected by this ruling include crystal shard, hail of crystals, and swarm of crystals.

Some spells affected by this ruling include ice storm and storm of vengeance.

I can recall a specific paragraph in the same book contradicting it:

METACREATIVITY AND DAMAGE REDUCTION
Any damage-dealing metacreativity power that specifies piercing, slashing, or bludgeoning
damage does not automatically overcome a creature’s damage reduction.
Such powers include crystal shard (EPH 89), hail of crystals (EPH 111), swarm of crystals
(EPH 134), burrowing bonds (page 79), and crystalstorm (page 81).

Complete Psionics page 79
Basically saying that a Psionic power that deals piercing is treated as being a power and not a piercing damage. Same way a spell that deals piercing would still be a magical effect to overcome DR instead of piercing effect.

Weirdly my DM doesnt have the transparacy rules himself, since he says that Psionics and Magic are completely different so I'll have a hard time with DR but having no Psychic resistance for enemies is going to make me Tier 0 :D
That's a different story entirely though.

And yes, CPsi is a weird, weird book.... only for the sake it nerfs so many powers that work perfectly fine in XPH.

[Psyren]

I can recall a specific paragraph in the same book contradicting it:

Two different books actually. My quote is the modified ruling for Pathfinder, from Psionics Unleashed. Yours is the quote this thread is about, from CPsi.