Level Adjustment Buyoff Fairness

[prufock]

I'm not really familiar with the LA buyoff rules, but it seems a bit imbalanced to me. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Let's say you're starting at character level 12. This means that an LA of +1 or +2 can be bought off at the start of the game. So characters with LA of 1 or 2 basically get their LA for free with no drawback. IE you have a human rogue 12, elven ranger 12, half-vampire human barbarian 12, and tiefling wizard 12.

Am I wrong in thinking that it seems the half-vampire and tiefling have a distinct advantage?

Would a better way to handle this be to just give races with LA lower point buy as in E6?

Clarification appreciated!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It's not free, starting out with a level adjustment bought off starts you at a lower XP total, and often a lower level. Assuming no racial HD and you had all your level adjustment prior to your first class level (i.e. inherited templates and/or level adjusted base race):
+1 LA costs 3,000 xp (minimum 4th)
+2 LA costs 15,000 xp (minimum 10th)
+3 LA costs 45,000 xp (minimum 19th)

Characters starting at level 11 will probably start with 55,000 xp, a character who bought off a +2 LA will instead have 40,000 xp, which means he's only 9th level. It's not free, he's still two levels lower than the rest of the party, but in time he'll gradually catch back up.

[limejuicepowder]

Well....yes and no. The buy-off works by at some point (depending on how much LA you have), you are allowed to spend the XP you could have used to advance a level to instead remove your LA.

Ex) a hobgoblin rogue 2 and human fighter 3 are partying together (both ECL 3) gain enough XP to go to advance a level. The fighter goes up to level 4, while the rogue elects to buy off his LA. Now, he is a rogue 2 with no LA, and continues to adventure. Since he's lower level, he gains XP faster and eventually catches up to the fighter. Ultimately though, he will never catch up since he's "lost" some of his XP.

The idea behind this is the LA means less and less as levels go up, and it becomes a real detriment to have 1 less class level.

Probably swordsage'd

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Well....yes and no. The buy-off works by at some point (depending on how much LA you have), you are allowed to spend the XP you could have used to advance a level to instead remove your LA.

Ex) a hobgoblin rogue 2 and human fighter 3 are partying together (both ECL 3) gain enough XP to go to advance a level. The fighter goes up to level 4, while the rogue elects to buy off his LA. Now, he is a rogue 2 with no LA, and continues to adventure. Since he's lower level, he gains XP faster and eventually catches up to the fighter. Ultimately though, he will never catch up since he's "lost" some of his XP.

The idea behind this is the LA means less and less as levels go up, and it becomes a real detriment to have 1 less class level.

Probably swordsage'd

No, they both hit ECL 4 first. The Human Fighter is 4th level, the Hobgoblin Rogue is 3rd with a +1 LA. At his 3rd class level (three times his level adjustment) he can buy it off, paying (current ECL -1)x 1000 xp, or 3,000 xp. That's exactly the difference between his current and previous level/ECL, so he reduces his LA by one, reduces his ECL by one, and he's still a 3rd level Rogue, but with no level adjustment. From this point he'll be getting slightly more xp per encounter than the Fighter and eventually catch back up, but it takes time. It takes long enough that by the time he has caught back up, the benefits of his level adjustment will be of little consequence. The same goes for any level adjustment, really.

[Story]

The penalty is that you're behind until you get to level 12. Which could be years depending on the play style.

[Urpriest]

I'm not really familiar with the LA buyoff rules, but it seems a bit imbalanced to me. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Let's say you're starting at character level 12. This means that an LA of +1 or +2 can be bought off at the start of the game. So characters with LA of 1 or 2 basically get their LA for free with no drawback. IE you have a human rogue 12, elven ranger 12, half-vampire human barbarian 12, and tiefling wizard 12.

Am I wrong in thinking that it seems the half-vampire and tiefling have a distinct advantage?

Would a better way to handle this be to just give races with LA lower point buy as in E6?

Clarification appreciated!

The whole point of LA buyoff is that there isn't actually a "distinct advantage". At 12th level, those characters have slightly higher stats, and that's basically it. In return, they don't get access to the huge number of Elf ACFs and PrCs, which are not only more important at high levels but which are likely the reason that the player chose an Elf in the first place.

Basically, stat boosts matter a lot at low levels, when casters have few spells per day and low DCs and most melee damage is from your Str. They don't matter much at higher levels, though, and a well-made Human or Whisper Gnome could probably give that Tiefling a run for it's money.

Plus, as others have mentioned, you're still behind in XP. If you're starting at level 12, you'd probably charge the Tiefling 3,000XP, and the Half-Vampire 15,000XP. That's XP that they can't spend on crafting, or spells that require XP, or the like. In general, when I have a game start at higher level, I do it with a set XP total rather than a set level. The casters then tend to choose races without LA so they can craft, while the non-casters go for LA buyoff for better ability scores or interesting abilities.

[limejuicepowder]

No, they both hit ECL 4 first. The Human Fighter is 4th level, the Hobgoblin Rogue is 3rd with a +1 LA. At his 3rd class level (three times his level adjustment) he can buy it off, paying (current ECL -1)x 1000 xp, or 3,000 xp. That's exactly the difference between his current and previous level/ECL, so he reduces his LA by one, reduces his ECL by one, and he's still a 3rd level Rogue, but with no level adjustment. From this point he'll be getting slightly more xp per encounter than the Fighter and eventually catch back up, but it takes time. It takes long enough that by the time he has caught back up, the benefits of his level adjustment will be of little consequence. The same goes for any level adjustment, really.

Yeah, close enough. I couldn't remember off the top of my head when you can buy off, and since I knew someone was going to say it first I didn't spend the time to go look. It still illustrates the same point though.

[prufock]

No, they both hit ECL 4 first. The Human Fighter is 4th level, the Hobgoblin Rogue is 3rd with a +1 LA. At his 3rd class level (three times his level adjustment) he can buy it off, paying (current ECL -1)x 1000 xp, or 3,000 xp. That's exactly the difference between his current and previous level/ECL, so he reduces his LA by one, reduces his ECL by one, and he's still a 3rd level Rogue, but with no level adjustment. From this point he'll be getting slightly more xp per encounter than the Fighter and eventually catch back up, but it takes time. It takes long enough that by the time he has caught back up, the benefits of his level adjustment will be of little consequence. The same goes for any level adjustment, really.

So by level 12, for example, he'll have caught up in class levels, but still have the ability score adjustments and stuff of a +1 LA without the actual adjustment.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

So by level 12, for example, he'll have caught up in class levels, but still have the ability score adjustments and stuff of a +1 LA without the actual adjustment.

I actually made a spreadsheet right around when UA was first printed, I don't have it any more but I figured out that the XP deficit is reduced by 25% of its current value for each level the party gains.

For example, when the party is ECL 4 he buys off his +1 LA for 3,000 xp. By the time the party reaches ECL 5 he's behind by ~2250 xp (3,000 x 0.75). By the time the party reaches ECL 6 he's behind by ~1688 xp (2250 x 0.75). By the time the party reaches ECL 7 he's behind by ~1266 xp (1688 x 0.75). By the time the party reaches ECL 8 he's behind by ~950 xp (1266 x 0.75), and so on. By the time the party level is 12, he's behind by ~300 xp still, but only if they actually played through those levels and the party leveled up by gaining CR-based XP rewards. If they're simply creating characters at level 12, he's down by 3,000 xp, the amount he paid to buy off the level adjustment.

[Clistenes]

Please, refresh my memory:

A character with LA +2 can get rid of one virtual level adjustment at class level 6, paying 7,000 xp, and can get rid of a second virtual level adjustment at class level 9, paying 9,000 xp.

But if I'm not wrong, the character can choose to get rid of those levels later (for example, paying 15,000 xp at class level 14 and 15,000 at class level 15).

Am I wrong? If you don't pay the xp at level 6th and 9th, can you still pay it later, or not?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Please, refresh my memory:

A character with LA +2 can get rid of one virtual level adjustment at class level 6, paying 7,000 xp, and can get rid of a second virtual level adjustment at class level 9, paying 9,000 xp.

But if I'm not wrong, the character can choose to get rid of those levels later (for example, paying 15,000 xp at class level 14 and 15,000 at class level 15).

Am I wrong? If you don't pay the xp at level 6th and 9th, can you still pay it later, or not?

You can't do them one level after another, you need to gain three times your current level adjustment in class levels since the last point of level adjustment was bought off. So a character with a +2 LA can buy one off at level 14 for 15k xp, but has to wait until level 17 to buy off the remaining +1 LA.

[Clistenes]

You can't do them one level after another, you need to gain three times your current level adjustment in class levels since the last point of level adjustment was bought off. So a character with a +2 LA can buy one off at level 14 for 15k xp, but has to wait until level 17 to buy off the remaining +1 LA.

I thought that rule only determined the minimum class level at which you could pay the xp (class level 6 to get rid for the LA +2, and class level 9 to get rid of the remaining LA +1), but that past that minimun level you could get rid of them whenever you pleased.

[Story]

Why would you want to wait though? It's strictly worse in every way.

[TuggyNE]

I thought that rule only determined the minimum class level at which you could pay the xp (class level 6 to get rid for the LA +2, and class level 9 to get rid of the remaining LA +1), but that past that minimun level you could get rid of them whenever you pleased.

Besides Story's correct point about the tradeoffs, as far as I know it's not phrased as minimum, but as the only time you can do that. For example, "The [buyoff XP] payment must be made immediately upon becoming eligible to reduce the character's level adjustment."