Boss asked me to take a pay cut

[hawkboy772042]

I work for a company as a contractor and due to mismanagement on assessing the workload, they decided to hire an extra worker to get more of the work done for the next couple months. Because of this, I have to take a pay cut without any future or meantime benefits. (I actually have to work harder). I'm seriously considering if whether I should simply eat crow or walk since I do have other opportunities elsewhere.

[Maelstrom]

If you have alternatives elsewhere, use that to your advantage and leverage it... Just make sure you've got plan b set-up ahead of time

[Ansem]

Are they legally allowed to change your payment?
I mean, unless your a teenager being used for slave-labour you should have a contract and they shouldnt be able to just pull this off.
They can pay you less if they want, but then you also work less, but they cannot change your wage.

[Jan Mattys]

Unless, of course, you like this job and you are in a position where being collaborative with the management can / will have benefits in the long run. Not in the "bend over and hope for a cookie" way, but in the "he's a good lad who helped in times of troubles, let's not forget that" way.

In my experience, in small enterprises (and if your boss isn't a total dbag), they tend to remember people for what they did. Surprisingly enough, gratitude is still a thing.

Of course, it's difficult to tell without knowing in detail what kind of position you work in, what kind of person your boss is, how high or low in the ladder you stand, and how likely you are to climb the ladder in the same enterprise from where you stand. And, of course, the main points, which are
a) how much you actually like your job,
b) how much the loss of money impacts on your life for the next months

[Jon_Dahl]

Join a union ASAP.
Ask them.

I always ask about these things from my union. I pay them 180 euros a year, and they advise when I need it (I haven't needed their advise in three years), and if I want to sue my boss, they will cover the legal expenses.

Without a union to back you up, you're alone and dirt. Maybe even lower than dirty, like quasi-dirt.

[Emmerask]

It completely depends on the company you work for.

I work for a small 3 person software development company and when we where in the exact position, underestimated the workload for a project (contract work), I took a pay cut.

However my boss took the exact same pay cut I did (ie projected should have taken 5 months but took 6, so we worked a month for free).

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Jan Mattys
Surprisingly enough, gratitude is still a thing.

That may be the case in Italy, and more power to you, but that's something I'd never count on in the US.


Originally Posted by Hawkboy772042
I'm seriously considering if whether I should simply eat crow or walk since I do have other opportunities elsewhere.

If you do have those other opportunities, now's the time to pursue them. From what you say, you're being asked to take a hit because of someone else's error in judgment. That would raise my hackles.

There's no reason why you can't separate yourself in a professional manner, but if I were you--and those other opportunities are real, not just hope--then it doesn't seem like there's much reason to stay where you are. They're not accepting responsibility for a poorly calculated decision, and you're the one being asked to take the penalty.

[Equinox]

Gratitude is not a thing. Loyalty isn't a thing. You are not your boss' friend, ally, or partner. You are his resource. There's nothing for you to do but take a page from his playbook. Your job is not your life. Your job is a resource, which you leverage to derive financial benefits for you and your loved ones. If said resource doesn't provide enough buck for the bang, walk away, get a better job.

[pendell]

Gratitude is not a thing. Loyalty isn't a thing. You are not your boss' friend, ally, or partner. You are his resource. There's nothing for you to do but take a page from his playbook. Your job is not your life. Your job is a resource, which you leverage to derive financial benefits for you and your loved ones. If said resource doesn't provide enough buck for the bang, walk away, get a better job.

In the United States, this is the way it is. An employment is neither slavery nor a called Vocation in which leaving it is a betrayal of an oath. It is a voluntary agreement for mutual benefit. If one of the two parties is not happy in the situation, it's time to part ways.

I would wait until I actually had a signed job offer before giving notice, however. And , depending on your relationship with your boss, you might *consider* discussing that you consider this unacceptable.

Another question is: Are you the one giving up the pay cut, or is he, too?

Bad things happen in small companies from time to time, and if the person on top is making as much or more of a sacrifice than he's asking of me, I might just stick around because people like that are rare, though I have met them.

OTOH, if he's using YOUR badly paid job to cover for HIS mistakes, making sure that you suffer all the consequences of his bad judgement, I'd be out as soon as I reasonably could. Loyalty is a two way street, and there ARE employers out there who will do for you as you do for them. I'll stick with such a one for the long haul. the second kind I'll cut loose in favor of the first as soon as I can.

ETA: You might also find out if there is any plan to make it up to you. If so, depends on how much you trust them. I would suggest giving them the benefit of the doubt to see if they keep their word. If they do, stick with that employer. If it turns out they're stringing you along, cut 'em loose.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Jan Mattys]

Gratitude is not a thing. Loyalty isn't a thing. You are not your boss' friend, ally, or partner. You are his resource. There's nothing for you to do but take a page from his playbook. Your job is not your life. Your job is a resource, which you leverage to derive financial benefits for you and your loved ones. If said resource doesn't provide enough buck for the bang, walk away, get a better job.

As I said, it all depends on the situation.
If you really feel that way every day you go to work, it must be really tiring.

My job is as part of my life as any other thing that takes 8-9 hourse out of 24 every day. Sometimes it is hard, some times it is unpleasant, but sometimes it is also rewarding. And I wouldn't have any other way, because the alternative would be to consider myself stuck in a prison for 8 hours a day.


I know my boss trusts me, and I also know that I work for him and not the other way around.

But I also know that, if we as a company get to dire straits, he would cut his own profit a lot before being forced to kick any of us out. Because he cares, and I had countless evidence of it.

As I said, it's all about the situation. I've been working in a small accounting firm for 9 years now, we are ten people, with three partners. I suppose in bigger enterprises, where social and personal bonds are (necessarily) less strong, it's easier to be considered expendable, but I can assure you that it's not always the case.

And as I said, it's difficult to give real advice to the OP without knowing what kind of work it is, what kind of person the boss is, how big the enterprise and the project are, and how likely the OP is to get through the month with a lesser income.

[Jan Mattys]

In the United States, this is the way it is. An employment is neither slavery nor a called Vocation in which leaving it is a betrayal of an oath. It is a voluntary agreement for mutual benefit. If one of the two parties is not happy in the situation, it's time to part ways.

I would wait until I actually had a signed job offer before giving notice, however. And , depending on your relationship with your boss, you might *consider* discussing that you consider this unacceptable.

Another question is: Are you the one giving up the pay cut, or is he, too?

Bad things happen in small companies from time to time, and if the person on top is making as much or more of a sacrifice than he's asking of me, I might just stick around because people like that are rare, though I have met them.

OTOH, if he's using YOUR badly paid job to cover for HIS mistakes, making sure that you suffer all the consequences of his bad judgement, I'd be out as soon as I reasonably could. Loyalty is a two way street, and there ARE employers out there who will do for you as you do for them. I'll stick with such a one for the long haul. the second kind I'll cut loose in favor of the first as soon as I can.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

That makes sense, I suppose.

[Finlam]

Some money is better than no money.

Don't let pride make you broke.

[Flickerdart]

Ask your boss how much of a pay cut he's taking.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

How long will this pay cut last? If it's only a month or two; I might do what I'm told (work harder for less pay) until the pay cut is over; and then I would ask for a raise.

If you like this job and if you think that the management will be understanding of your sacrifice (and appreciate that you're a good worker who should be compensated for working harder for less money (preferably with a pay raise once this hassle is over)); then maybe you should stay and bide your time.

If you think the management is going to exploit you and not negotiate with you or try in any way to compensate for your extra work; then maybe you should look into those other options.

In short; Is your employer the sort of person who will do for you as you do for him?

[Equinox]

My job is as part of my life as any other thing that takes 8-9 hourse out of 24 every day. Sometimes it is hard, some times it is unpleasant, but sometimes it is also rewarding. And I wouldn't have any other way, because the alternative would be to consider myself stuck in a prison for 8 hours a day.Too bad. Mine is always rewarding. And I know just what to do in case it ever stops being so :smallwink:

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Jan Mattys
But I also know that, if we as a company get to dire straits, [my boss] would cut his own profit a lot before being forced to kick any of us out. Because he cares, and I had countless evidence of it.

You're very fortunate, then. Circumstances like this do exist in the US, but rarely, and probably only in very small businesses in certain occupations. The overwhelming attitude, unfortunately, is what Equinox and pendell have described. It's considered "professional."


Originally Posted by Flickerdart
Ask your boss how much of a pay cut he's taking.

Just don't phrase it like that.

[hawkboy772042]

Thanks to everyone for all of the answers. Many of you gave the same thought process that I had on it. I'm going to talk to my other potential clients tomorrow and get everything underway.

Some of the details include that it is a small company with me, a programmer working as a contractor, two partners, and another part time worker. The main deal breaker for me was when one of the partners (whom is primarily responsible for the mismanagement) decided to insult my speed at which I work. The whole reason that everything became "slow" was because he kept changing his mind almost every 5 minutes on what he wanted, not to mention dealing with really messy code.

Furthermore, he decided to bring on the previous developer that is "fast", but writes rather messy code, which is prone to cause the software to become really buggy. While I was somewhat happy with the decision to bring him back in, I was assuming that they'd put him on code that he's written before. Instead, they put him on whole new modules that I've written myself then put me on revamping his old modules.

With the way the management is continuing to behave, I wonder if we'll even be able to finish with a decent product on time, even if I decide to suck it up. So I guess I just answered my own question with the previous sentence... Thanks again.

[Emmerask]

Yep it doesnt help at all if the fast written code then requires double the time again to fix.
Once a contractor told us how fast the ios version was created (10days)
I then spend 15 seconds to find the first bug that crashed it... after 10 minutes I had 3 more bugs of that caliber (not to mention all the other bugs).
It then took the coders another 20 days to fix all these, so 30 days total.

We programmed the android version in 20 days, with 1 day of bugfixing :smallbiggrin:

[Mando Knight]

Just don't phrase it like that.

Nor should you turn the phrase and say "sure, I'd like a cut of your pay." It might be funny, but it's a fast way to get fired outright... and that won't look good to whatever company you apply to next.

[Killer Angel]

I'm seriously considering if whether I should simply eat crow or walk since I do have other opportunities elsewhere.

You could always eat the crow and walk away, in the same moment those opportunities become real.

[scurv]

partners (whom is primarily responsible for the mismanagement) decided to insult my speed at which I work. The whole reason that everything became "slow" was because he kept changing his mind almost every 5 minutes on what he wanted, not to mention dealing with really messy code.

Furthermore, he decided to bring on the previous developer that is "fast", but writes rather messy code, which is prone to cause the software to become really buggy. While I was somewhat happy with the decision to bring him back in, I was assuming that they'd put him on code that he's written before. Instead, they put him on whole new modules that I've written myself then put me on revamping his old modules.


I have seen that before!!!!!! Let me give you a thought for your consideration! He will push for fast results to pad his own ego/accomplishments record. You will take the brunt of the bad reputation and blame and I would get the hell out now because I will bet you this shinny quarter I have that he has already started a slander campaign. Especially if he is willing to insult you to your face for his own mistakes. All he needs to 'prove' himself right is the fast coder to make something that works well enough to look cool, Especly sence you are cleaning up his mess, while he takes credit for your clean code.

[Tyndmyr]

That may be the case in Italy, and more power to you, but that's something I'd never count on in the US.

It's certainly a thing in small businesses here, too. If you've worked for them for a while, you should have a good feel for them. Do they tend to look for ways to screw you over on the small stuff? If so, they'll do it on the big stuff too.

It's more about the people and the company, really. You get good and bad people everywhere. Make your best judgement as to if they really are going to make it up to you and how ok you are with your new situation, and compare that to how well you'll do looking. Sometimes, if everyone has gotten hit by a bad situation, pay cuts are harder to avoid, but if it's just your company, and opportunities exist elsewhere...go investigate those opportunities.

Quit when/if you have a new position. It might be temporarily satisfying to quit on the spot, but having a bit of certainty while you job hunt is nice too.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
It's certainly a thing in small businesses here, too. ...It's more about the people and the company, really. You get good and bad people everywhere.

True enough, I suppose, although I've never experienced that sort of thing myself. Working for large companies and NGOs, one learns the hard way that callous frackage is the norm.

I've also heard enough stories about very small businesses (including software firms, as it happens) to expect that those same dynamics would be more common than otherwise. Color me untrusting.

:smallfrown:

[Lettuce]

Unfortunately, my own experiences confirm what Equinox, Pendell, and the others have been saying about working in the United States. Furthermore, as someone who was recently laid off from a small business (45 or so people) due to corporate mismanagement of resources, I can attest that certainly not all small businesses are full of grateful people's sacrifices and hard work, either. :smallsigh: It really is about finding good people.

hawkboy772042, what you've said about your situation worries me. If you are already being treated that way, nothing good can come from a future of working with them and continually taking the blame for cleaning up others' mistakes and working 'slowly' and making good code. I fear relations with them will continue to worsen and you might eventually not even be able to secure a good recommendation from them despite all your hard work. If your group is willing to treat you like dirt, you owe them no loyalty. I'd look elsewhere--although, like others have said, it's generally a good idea to secure another position before leaving your old one. Being out of work completely is never a good thing, after all.

[hawkboy772042]

Unfortunately, my own experiences confirm what Equinox, Pendell, and the others have been saying about working in the United States. Furthermore, as someone who was recently laid off from a small business (45 or so people) due to corporate mismanagement of resources, I can attest that certainly not all small businesses are full of grateful people's sacrifices and hard work, either. :smallsigh: It really is about finding good people.

hawkboy772042, what you've said about your situation worries me. If you are already being treated that way, nothing good can come from a future of working with them and continually taking the blame for cleaning up others' mistakes and working 'slowly' and making good code. I fear relations with them will continue to worsen and you might eventually not even be able to secure a good recommendation from them despite all your hard work. If your group is willing to treat you like dirt, you owe them no loyalty. I'd look elsewhere--although, like others have said, it's generally a good idea to secure another position before leaving your old one. Being out of work completely is never a good thing, after all.

You are 100% correct. Today, unfortunately I exploded when the guy kept bothering me over something rather trivial, but hard to do because of the messy code (even though I explained the problem thoroughly). I have things kind've lined up already, so I'm not completely lost. I just don't like leaving on bad terms if I can help it.

Oddly enough, the other partner and even the messy coder realize that I have 100% integrity on getting things done in timely, but organized fashion. (I really see no use in writing sloppy code if I'll have a really hard time debugging it later or worse yet, leaving it for some other poor developer)

[Douglas]

I really see no use in writing sloppy code if I'll have a really hard time debugging it later or worse yet, leaving it for some other poor developer
Good. That is exactly the attitude any good software developer should have. Doing something the right way the first time, even if it takes additional time, reliably results in better software, completed faster despite the up front time cost. And I'm not just talking from opinion here, this is part of Google's new hire orientation and they have some interesting data to back it up (which I'm not sure of the confidentiality status of, sorry).

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by douglas
That is exactly the attitude any good software developer should have. Doing something the right way the first time, even if it takes additional time, reliably results in better software, completed faster despite the up front time cost.

And I would say, not just software developers, but anyone working on something they care about and want to last.

There's an old saying in the construction business: "Do it right or do it twice." Rushed or sloppy work always gives you an inferior product, on which you'll only end up spending more time and money to fix in the long run. This applies across all manner of disciplines.

I used to work in a large international nonprofit where the mantra was, "Eighty percent done and out the door." I hate that approach to projects, because to anyone who cares about quality, the lack thereof will be gratingly obvious. Problem is, people often care more about ticking off a list of accomplishments than actually having any of those accomplishments be truly substantive.

[Douglas]

There's an old saying in the construction business: "Do it right or do it twice." Rushed or sloppy work always gives you an inferior product, on which you'll only end up spending more time and money to fix in the long run. This applies across all manner of disciplines.
:smallamused: My mom has a friend who is a construction quality control inspector. He has more stories than I can count about construction companies who he had to enforce that on, usually by noticing they'd done it wrong and forcing them to do it again, including some that thought he was holding out for a bribe or tried to intimidate him.

[pendell]

I used to work in a large international nonprofit where the mantra was, "Eighty percent done and out the door." I hate that approach to projects, because to anyone who cares about quality, the lack thereof will be gratingly obvious. Problem is, people often care more about ticking off a list of accomplishments than actually having any of those accomplishments be truly substantive.

And the other side of the coin (http://caroljacoby.wordpress.com/2013/04/22/caroljacoby/)



When I was working as a mission analyst on major aerospace systems, there was a sign that someone had posted on the wall that read, “There comes a time in every project when you must shoot the engineers and begin production.” This was a warning to the engineers, who always wanted to build the perfect system and would continue tweaking it as long as they could. This often was true of the analysts as well, myself included. We never had all the answers. We always wanted to do one more trade study. This was not only expensive, but it jeopardized the schedule. This was such a prevalent problem that folks developed an acronym for it (as aerospace folks are wont to do): T2SE (Time to Shoot the Engineers).

...

The power of “good enough.”

Sir R. A. Watson-Watt, the inventor of radar, described how a “good enough” design led to a turning point in World War II. “The best design had to be rejected because it would never be achieved, and … the ‘second best’ would be achieved too late to be used by the armed forces when they needed it. The third best would be adequate and was available in time, and it was what won the Battle of Britain.”

The same is true of your decisions. A “good enough” decision acted on is better than a perfect decision that never comes. Part of the art of effective decision-making is determining how much time you’ll give yourself and your team to come to a conclusion.


Another WWII example would be the Sherman tank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_Sherman). It was well known that the Germans had much better tanks , but developing proper replacements would take well into 1946-1948, and the invasion was scheduled for 1944. The US chose to develop the technology they had, and the result was that the US went to war in Europe in 1944 with 19000 shermans. The German Tiger and panther tanks were better, but there are 2000 Tiger tanks total and 6000 Panthers, which were also used on the Eastern Front. A 10 to 1 numerical advantage does a LOT to offset differences in quality.

Business competition isn't that different from war. The first person on the market is going to capture it. While it is possible for a better product to take market share from the first one (Case study: Blackberry being murdered in the smartphone market by Apple and Google), it's usually much easier to get there first and have to take market share from no one than it is to get there second and fight an uphill to get that market share back. That's especially true if your competition is not complacent but is already producing the Mark 2 improved version of the product which corrects at least some of the first ones deficiencies while slapping a NEW! IMPROVED! label on it.

So the winner in business competition is not the technically best product. As a rule, the winner is the person who gets their first with something adequate (see: VHS vs. Beta). And even there, people are willing to pay a lower cost even if it comes at a drop in quality (see: Apple vs. Droid, Apple Macintosh vs. Microsoft Windows 3.1) . Heck, I'm happy to say that Apple is and has always been a technically better system than Windows/Intel, but in twenty years Mac hasn't made a dint in the cheaper Wintel PC market share.


The problem *I* have with the pursuit of perfection is it can be a honey trap for projects. People keep adding just one more feature or re-factoring just one more time to get it right. Seen this myself.

And of course, it's never exactly right because the technology is a moving target.

Case in point: One of our databases had to be replaced because it was not PCI-complaint. That was a requirement for a customer. And so we did some work to re-engineer the system for a new database that WILL work.

For about six months, when changing customer requirements which we know are coming will also require a second change.

This is one case where it's a bad idea to spend too much time and effort on getting the project just right, because you're going to have to adapt the work again anyway in a very short time.

Or you can spend lots of time working , say, to make just the perfect .NET project . Then find that .NET is being de-emphasized (http://news.techeye.net/internet/the-move-away-from-net-could-kill-microsoft). I know the latest denials from Microsoft say that .NET will be fully supported , but I see where Metro is going and I have a different opinion.

My approach then, is to try to build solid architectures and document the living daylights out of them so that I can quickly and easily make changes to them. I also try to make it technology-independent so Microsoft can't murder me. But I'm not so much interesting in getting the "best" code or the "perfect" code. Instead, I want to build something good enough to serve the purpose for the time it is supposed to be there, because I already have replacements in the pipeline.

Fast, cheap, or good, choose two out of three. Management in my experience wants fast and cheap. It takes some serious battle to convince them they need "good" as well. Of course, they pay lip service to "good" but the budgeting all too often reflects their real priorities. Telling them to make something slower or more expensive can be VERY hard, and for that you need a really, really good project manager who can make that case.

It's still not a fun conversation when you're asked for your estimate, you tell the manager "I believe we can have a proof-of-concept in August" and he says "I promised [client] we'd have it running at their site in March".

...

That was my experience for 14 years in government service and the private sector hasn't proven much different.

What do I do in that situation, if I can't talk the boss down? I'll build the best project I can, paying especial attention to the infrastructure so I can build on it later, and I'll cut out the specific features I don't have time to build. It's better to not have it at all than to do a sloppy job, because the reengineering and the refactoring will take forever. Although sometimes I put in a placeholder, a minimal version , of the feature just so we can say it's there.

So I think there are two sides to the story, a balance. Spending too little time on quality means you produce a horrible product that can't even be fixed -- you have to junk it and start over from scratch. But there IS such a thing as too much focus on quality, as it can lead to cost overruns and endless debate on just what the right approach is (which database should we use? This one? That one? Let's see a cost-benefit analysis of each and drag out the discussion over months, rather than just throwing in something that will WORK and get the job done in two weeks).

Left to themselves, many engineers will keep tweaking and refining the system and it will NEVER be 'ready' , because it's never perfect. That's why there comes a time in every project when it's time to shoot the engineers and start production .

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[hawkboy772042]

Yep, the good old question of quality vs quantity debate at its core.

On the more important matter, I left the job already and should be signing a new contract this week. At the same time, I told the guy that he needs to pay me in full by next week or else I'm file a suit in small claims court. He replied (the usual garbage) that my work wasn't good. Such a reply is what every dead beat client has ever said to me when they couldn't pay and be a man about it since if it were true, he should (or would) have just simply canceled the contract and paid me what he owed me then. I had to deal with a client almost exactly like him in this respect nearly 10 years ago.

[Finlam]

On the more important matter, I left the job already and should be signing a new contract this week.

Congratulations on the new contract. Onward to better things!

[pendell]

Yep, the good old question of quality vs quantity debate at its core.

On the more important matter, I left the job already and should be signing a new contract this week. At the same time, I told the guy that he needs to pay me in full by next week or else I'm file a suit in small claims court. He replied (the usual garbage) that my work wasn't good. Such a reply is what every dead beat client has ever said to me when they couldn't pay and be a man about it since if it were true, he should (or would) have just simply canceled the contract and paid me what he owed me then. I had to deal with a client almost exactly like him in this respect nearly 10 years ago.

Huzzah! Sounds like a terrible client whom you are well rid of. Good choie.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Bounty Hunter]

Ask your boss how much of a pay cut he's taking.This guy right here...

[hawkboy772042]

Huzzah! Sounds like a terrible client whom you are well rid of. Good choie.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Tell me about it. Today, I had to run by the office building for a meeting with a different client and he decided to pick a fight with me in the break room after I told him "I know you are, but what am I?" in response to him to calling me a "piece of s@!t" (after I merely ignored him). I seriously hope his company tanks now.