[3.p] "How to rogue" or "Apparently everyone here hates rogues". [Archive]

Spore

2013-10-21, 04:07 AM

Hey guys,

I am not new to Pathfinder in general, but I was when I created my rogue about a year ago. Since then it has been kind of a slippery slope. The first levels were as to be expected, I did a bit of roguey stuff, and started to invest in TWF. Our party consists of an epic, yet disapproving paladin (yes, Paladin and Rogue together sucks pretty hard), a befuddling sorcerer (playing with people's minds like its his job) and a Dwarven ranger (which died after casting a magic stone onto the mother of a dragon whelping which we killed). He has been replaced by a similarly played Dwarven barbarian.

I switched to wizard to get into arcane trickster (after taking TWF, combat expertise and the sorts), then convinced my DM to rebuild my crappy, but beloved character into a melee rogue.

As for now, I am a TWF rogue 8 with TWF, Weapon Focus (Shortsword), Rogue Finesse, Step Up, Improved Initiative, Quick Draw, Defensive Offensive, Improved TWF and Toughness. I am at 79 HP and have an AC of 21. So basically a quite offensive TWF rogue with lots of HP. But I cannot for the LIFE of me deal damage or get my sneaks in.

Besides not having enough perception(+11 paired with mostly poor rolls) to see the plentiful traps in my campaign and disarming them like a barbarian would, I am currently counting my 10. near-death experience in battles. I keep being frustrated by surprise fights where I don't have the mobility to flank, the time to hide and surprise people, or the feats to feint and TWF.

Other than that, I pretty much suck out of combat (we have a theme about my rogue being the suckiest rogue ever existing). Did I mention that the dwarves that we are about to save cursed me with a mark of justice (proccing when I steal for my own benefit cursing me with an unknown effect) and cut of my archery fingers after I tried to steal a good bow from them? Can't blame them but I really think my DM hates me. Currently we stopped in front of a dungeon underground and I am seriously considering a suicide scouting with that character. I considered leaving the "underdark" area we are currently residing in, to get rid of that character but since the place is crowded with undead - such as shadows which kill me with 3-4 touches - no can do. I really want to end that character's story with a fitting finale, and he is a braggart, a ladies' man, but no coward and certainly not as mental as to kill himself while scouting. But I consider taking out the enemy wizard when I see him. He is a Dwarven summoner for the looks of it.

I know my thread sounds a bit whiny but I have mixed feelings about that character. Help me to not suck. I know most of it is my fault, some of it is the underpoweredness of TWF in the current PF system but I want to improve. My DM helps me when I try to do stuff out of the box but he wants quite good skill rolls most of the time and when it backfires, I have to deal with punishments such as above.

I am - as a player - not very creative, and it shows mostly on my rogue. My cavalier, my oracle, my druid and my sorcerer were all fine.

Snowbluff

2013-10-21, 07:15 AM

You can get a scroll of Regenerate to get your fingers. Other than that, I'd say talk to your GM about your problems. It's bad enough PF rogues lack a niche.

You're supposed to be at least a little good at skills... what's your skill list right now?

As for Sneak Attack/damage, I would pick up Hellcat Stealth to help you stealth up to foes for the flank.

Raven777

2013-10-21, 07:54 AM

Did I mention... and cut of my archery fingers after I tried to steal a good bow from them?

Get up from your chair. Get up and punch the DM. Hard. In the face.

Psyren

2013-10-21, 08:03 AM

Honestly, the general PF rogue advice is "be a Ninja instead." Or at the very least, take a level of Shadowdancer by character level 6 or 8 so you can HiPs in combat. Or both. But tumbling in PF is very hard without the huge bonus Acrobatic Master gives you.

What archetype of rogue are you?

Get up from your chair. Get up and punch the DM. Hard. In the face.

Not that I agree with how the DM handled it, but aren't robbery attempts on NPCs - particularly the NPCs the party is supposed to be helping - generally a no-no anyway? I mean, bad enough there is a paladin in the party without trying shenanigans like that.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2013-10-21, 08:11 AM

I don't play Pathfinder, so my advice here will be taken from 3.5 sources and be in relation to the 3.5 Rogue, though looking at the PF Rogue it gets a larger HD and actually gets some decent class features.

Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) helps with flanking, a war-trained riding dog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dogRiding.htm) or a Fleshraker dinosaur in MM3 (add the Warbeast template in MM2 via Handle Animal to either of those) has great mobility and both can trip opponents to help you land more hits. There's also the Penetrating Strike ACF in Dungeonscape which trades Trap Sense for the ability to still deal half your sneak attack damage when flanking a creature normally immune to sneak attacks, such as undead. It doesn't work against opponents immune to flanking, such as elementals and oozes, and it doesn't work if they're just denied their Dex bonus to AC or flat-footed, you have to be flanking for it to work. There's also the Feat Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) variant, which can be a decent chain tripper and a versatile starting point for many prestige classes. The Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue) is generally considered to be an upgrade on the standard Rogue, mostly because it can actually get Hide in Plain Sight without taking a prestige class.

There was a 3.0 board I frequented which no longer exists, on which someone posted a controversial article titled something like, "Rogues are bad and traps are dumb," which detailed the problems with both the Rogue class and the mechanics of traps in 3.x edition. Let's see if I can remember most of his points:

Sneak attack is a bad mechanic, because the better it gets the more creatures are outright immune to it. Additionally, you're reliant on another party member to flank to be able to succeed, the only class that suffers this drawback. Rogues don't have a high attack bonus and don't have a high AC or HD, but they're expected to be a primary melee class.

Rogues are supposed to be able to scout ahead, but they're not equipped to even survive if caught when scouting ahead. You can't make a Hide check without cover or concealment, and most opponents have darkvision. If you were using darkness to hide and you get within range of their darkvision, you don't have concealment from them and your hide check automatically fails. If you raise an alarm to get your party rushing to help you, you're just as likely to get more opponents from the next room rushing to kill you. Plus you lack the mobility to escape if caught out by yourself.

Traps are expensive, prohibitively expensive, to the point that if there are two traps of the appropriate CR in a 6-encounter dungeon, there's a very good chance that those traps' combined value is twice as much as the total loot value of the entire dungeon. For example, let's say you have a CR 5-6 dungeon, with the following encounters: one EL 4, two EL 5, two EL 6, and one EL 7. Table 3-3 on DMG p51 shows the total treasure value of these encounters should be 11,000 gp.

Look at the prices of the CR 5 traps from the DMG (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#cr5Traps): 8,500 gp, 9,650 gp, 15,000 gp, 305 gp single-use, 12,000 gp plus 960 xp (24k market price), 17,500 gp, 18,000 gp, 22,500 gp, 14,000 gp plus 1,120 xp (28k market price), 5,000 gp, 12,650 gp, 13,500 gp, 5,000 gp, and 9,000 gp. Seriously, who is going to spend over 22,000 gp on a trap for a lair whose total loot value is only 11,000 gp? When my group realized how much traps were worth, we decided that a Disable Device check that beats the trap's DC by 10 or more is able to salvage a mechanical trap and retrieve components worth half of that trap's value. We started finding fewer and fewer traps.

Furthermore, the Trapfinding mechanic is utter bullocks. Any character can take Craft: Trapmaking and make a career out of it, but cannot find and disable traps without the Trapfinding class feature? Of the four archetypical roles, Rogue is the only one that they had to shoehorn in by creating an arbitrary limitation that prevents other classes from doing their job, and then they went and made ways for other classes to do their job anyway (Find Traps (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/findTraps.htm), etc.). In my group, the Trapfinding class feature doesn't exist, if you would get Trapfinding you instead get a free +2/+2 skill feat, such as Alertness or Stealthy.

Rogues are one of the worst classes to be at the front looking for traps, especially if he fails to find one and sets it off. They lack the AC and HP to survive them, and lack the Fort save to survive poisoned traps. Plus I've already illustrated how Rogues are ill-equipped to be the first into a fight and thus the first character targeted by opponents.

People don't hate rogues, the designers just did a really bad job on creating the class.

My advice would be to see if you can retrain (per PH2 Chapter 8) to Wilderness Rogue, take Penetrating Strike, and get Wild Cohort so you'll have a flanking buddy. Also make sure you have max ranks in all of your important skills (Perception, Disable Device, Stealth) to better your chances of success. If you already have max ranks and no other bonuses, see about getting an item to give you a bonus, such as Eyes of the Eagle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#eyesoftheEagle) or Goggles of Minute Seeing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#gogglesofMinuteSeeing), or just a Masterwork Tool (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#toolMasterwork) will help. Max UMD with a Wand of Guidance of the Avatar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) would also be beneficial.

Slipperychicken

2013-10-21, 08:21 AM

Get up from your chair. Get up and punch the DM. Hard. In the face.

I think that kind of thing (mutilation as punishment for theft) is reasonable for the era depicted, considering that some cultures would take the whole hand for theft.

Besides, if it was good enough to deter real-world thieves, it should be good enough for the PCs, amirite? :smallbiggrin:

Snowbluff

2013-10-21, 08:29 AM

@Bifu I agree Rogue are dumb. The trapfinding system has always pissed me off.

Psyren

2013-10-21, 08:35 AM

Trapfinding in PF is a "nice-to-have" but not necessary anymore. So you can trade it away (or again, be a ninja) and still be the trapmonkey if one is needed.

Snowbluff

2013-10-21, 08:45 AM

I know that... I even argued against you on how useless the rogue is. :smalltongue:
For everyone else, there is celestial monkeys. Or poles. Or people who don't put a lot of traps in their games.

Krazzman

2013-10-21, 08:53 AM

My advice is rebuild into a Knifemaster-Scout Rogue. Be a Human. Look the Knifemaster-Scout Rogue Handbook up for more advice.

On another note: did your DM warn you? Doesn't really seem like it or you play the Rogue just not secure enough.

Anyway look it up, it's a good build.

Psyren

2013-10-21, 08:56 AM

I know that... I even argued against you on how useless the rogue is. :smalltongue:

It was more of a general statement (for those who didn't know) than a response to you in particular - that's why I posted without quoting anyone :smallsmile:
Some people who might be reading this still see "trapfinding" on the class table and assume it works like the 3.5 version.

Person_Man

2013-10-21, 08:59 AM

It's not you. It's a basic design flaw with the Rogue. Everything Biffoniacus posted is correct.

I would just add to it by saying that Sneak Attack strongly encourages you to use melee at low-mid levels. (Ranged attack of 30 feet or under is also possible, but can be difficult to trigger after the first round). You also have to flank, which means that you're usually using Tumble/Acrobatics to move behind enemies. So instead of standing behind the meat shield (or at least shoulder to shoulder), you make yourself the most tempting target. And you're limited to d6 hit die and light armor, and generally lack useful defensive abilities (with the exception of Evasion, which helps a lot vs area of effect attacks, but does nothing against melee).

Rogues are basically strongly encouraged to commit suicide.

Having said that, there are a few Rogue optimization tips to consider:

1) Your highest attribute should be Dexterity, in order to improve your AC, Reflex Save, Initiative, Acrobatics, Disable Device, and Stealth.. Take Weapon Finesse to get your to-hit on it as well. Play a race with a Dex bonus, put all of your stat increases into it, and (at high levels) buy a +6 Dex magic item.

2) Your second highest attribute should be Con, for hit points and Fort Saves.

3) The Skills you need: Acrobatics, Disable Device, Stealth, Perception, and Use Magic Device. Everything else is gravy.

4) Str, Int, and Wis can be 10. (Yes, even Int. There are only 5 critical Skills. More are fun, but not necessary). Cha can be dumped entirely.

5) Don't steal. The mechanic sucks, and lots of people (both actual people and in game people) resent it.

6) Don't scout ahead. Move with your group together. Whoever has the highest Perception check should Take 10 on that check (or take the time to Take 20 before you open a door or chest). Everyone else should use Aid Another to grant him a bonus to that check. If you come across a trap, identify it first before attempting to disable it. (Is it a falling block, a magical explosion, a poisoned needle, etc). If it can safely be avoided or set off with a 10 foot pole or by throwing something at it from across the room, do so. Otherwise, try to find another route. If that still doesn't work, then (and only then) do you make an attempt to disable it.

Psyren

2013-10-21, 09:04 AM

Flanking isn't so bad if you have a reach weapon. Kusarigama is great for this since you can TWF with it from 10ft. away. Though of course this does push you towards Ninja again.

Dusk Eclipse

2013-10-21, 09:06 AM

Are there any Kusarigamas in PF? I was looking for a way yo get reach on a Magus build and I had to port in Spinning Sword from Secrets of Sarlona.

Callin

2013-10-21, 09:08 AM

Also the Pathfinder rogue uses a D8 for HD. Make sure you are using that.

Psyren

2013-10-21, 09:11 AM

Are there any Kusarigamas in PF? I was looking for a way yo get reach on a Magus build and I had to port in Spinning Sword from Secrets of Sarlona.

Yes - under Eastern Weapons (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/eastern-weapons)

Dusk Eclipse

2013-10-21, 09:49 AM

Doesn't really work for Magus... good to know though.

Diarmuid

2013-10-21, 10:53 AM

The problem with mutiliation like that is there are no mechanics built into the system to support it so anything done feels like complete DM fiat and easily construed as "too much/far".

Feilith

2013-10-21, 11:07 AM

Did they bring spellthief over to PF? it feels like a rogue but you get spells that make you awesome, you lose out on some skill points and trap finding but lets be honest here, you don't need 8 skill points and trapfinding is bad. Spells are where the power is.
hide check to low? invisibility
opponent's AC to high? wraithstrike
fighting a golem who is immune to your sneak attack? theres a spell for that

You'll still get sneak attack, and for what its worth there is obtain familiar from Complete arcane and improved familiar from complete warrior, now you have a flanking buddy who's main goal in life is to flank with you.

Note: all of this is from 3.5, idk if it was brought over into PF

Spore

2013-10-21, 12:02 PM

Now to reply and answer some questions:

I picked vanilla rogue because the DM stated, I HAD to be the trap monkey. So no archetypes for me.

Get up from your chair. Get up and punch the DM. Hard. In the face.

No. No, I wouldn't. He wrote a mini dungeon for me, and I failed to get in. I got caught by the dwarves - who fight off undead waves by the hundred every year - and they spared my hand because I would've been useless then. To them anyway.

On another note: I like my friends too much to punch them over a matter of rule sets ;)

I cannot use eastern weapons nor ninjas because my DM hates them. He even disallows gunslingers despite them being the main warfare unit of another nation.

Also when I retconned my rogue we used a magic mirror that sucked the life force from me. I changed from Rogue3/Wizard3/Trickster1 to Rogue 7, and I didn't want UMD anymore because I wanted to have SOME kind of consistency in the story.

Long post in short: No ninjas, no UMD, no magic, no eastern warfare.

Also I made stealing a major plot point and adventure hook on my part. I can't simply say to myself: "Hey, stealing got me an awesome ancient scroll, an artifact armor and a giant adventure. Now let's quit because some dwarves throw a sissy fit."

What would you do? Kill the character off in an "accident"? (I kind of want the artifacts back, just because my DM said, He had already written down ideas up to Lv 16) Or just leave the group (character, not physically)? Or try and repair the character with levels of fighter (which is my plan now)?

My gaming session is tomorrow and I am tempted to prepare a substitute character and tell my DM: "I check the enemy fortress for entry points and try to assassinate the master summoner of the faction." "Why?" "Because I ****ed EVERYTHING up until that point and want to prove my worth to the group."

Did they bring spellthief over to PF?

Yes and no. Remember arcane trickster from 3.0 and 3.5? It's basically a spellcaster with -3 levels in casting, and a rogue with -3 levels in being a rogue. Great, init?

MightyPirate

2013-10-21, 12:21 PM

Some of the better rogue approaches I've seen advocate a strength based approach. Sadly power attack doesn't play as nicely with rogues as it does with nearly every other melee character. Add in that it makes strength more important and maybe even charisma on an intimidate focused character. All this means you no longer have a dump stat. It's still a decent option though because it's one of the very few things you can do in combat that won't devour all your feats without giving you anything in return.

You'll also find that there are a lot of better classes that can do most of the things you can do. Rangers, bards, seeker sorcerers with the sage bloodline, and a summoner who utilizes the skilled evolution can all out class a rogue pretty hard at what he does. Alchemists can even pick up sneak attack and rock at that way better than a rogue ever will. Don't play a rogue because your party needs a trapfinder, this is a path the rogue loses every time.

The only thing I've seen that makes a rogue unique is the thug archetype which can let you turn your intimidates into frightened conditions with the possibility of a sickened condition later on. Witches and Hexcrafter Magi may debuff better but at least you have the unique ability to use combat reflexes and allies to their fullest by generating AoOs.

Also please not that not everyone hates rogue. It's probably my favorite class. It just makes me sad that he sucks so much. I want to sneak ahead to scout for the party, stop the trap that will kill the party otherwise, and open the doors that would otherwise be missed or impassible to the party. The system just does a really good job of making the rogue suck at his job.

Slipperychicken

2013-10-21, 12:23 PM

The problem with mutiliation like that is there are no mechanics built into the system to support it so anything done feels like complete DM fiat and easily construed as "too much/far".

Actually, it would have been more reasonable if the DM had previously communicated (i.e. before the theft took place) that mutilation was a common punishment for theft in Dwarftown. If that sort of thing is never communicated, then it's probably fiat, and likely to be unfair.

Granted, mutilation is kind of redundant if your perpetrators have access to regeneration.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2013-10-21, 12:32 PM

What will you make your substitute character? The DM will probably still want you to play the trapfinder, and your party looks like it could use a full divine caster.

Druid with the Summon Elemental reserve feat in CM could be substituted for a Rogue, as the free elementals could be used to Nodwick all the traps. This is assuming you're doing PF feats at every odd level, to put Natural Spell at 5th and Summon Elemental at 7th.

Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) with the Trickery and Kobold (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) (reflavored Trap) domains is a great substitute for a Rogue. Make the character some sort of Elf (Snow Elf in Frostburn, otherwise Wild or Wood Elf), take one or two levels in Ruathar, and dip a single level of Seeker of the Misty Isle, then keep taking Cloistered Cleric. Maybe get Divine Oracle, gaining its feat prerequisite via the Frog God's Fane in CS instead of spending a feat on it, and/or Contemplative, but either of those will severely hinder your skills. It can still work though, thanks to Guidance of the Avatar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) and similar.

Psyren

2013-10-21, 12:35 PM

I picked vanilla rogue because the DM stated, I HAD to be the trap monkey. So no archetypes for me.

Does he know you don't need trapfinding to be the trapmonkey in PF? And there are archetypes that keep trapfinding regardless. Anyhoo...

I cannot use eastern weapons nor ninjas because my DM hates them. He even disallows gunslingers despite them being the main warfare unit of another nation.

Also when I retconned my rogue we used a magic mirror that sucked the life force from me. I changed from Rogue3/Wizard3/Trickster1 to Rogue 7, and I didn't want UMD anymore because I wanted to have SOME kind of consistency in the story.

Long post in short: No ninjas, no UMD, no magic, no eastern warfare.

That's your choice - but without some kind of supernatural edge you're likely going to keep being surprised and frustrated. Without magic of some kind or large amounts of wealth the odds are heavily against you avoiding detection, particularly vs. monsters with extranormal senses like darkvision or tremorsense.

Also I made stealing a major plot point and adventure hook on my part. I can't simply say to myself: "Hey, stealing got me an awesome ancient scroll, an artifact armor and a giant adventure. Now let's quit because some dwarves throw a sissy fit."

What would you do? Kill the character off in an "accident"? (I kind of want the artifacts back, just because my DM said, He had already written down ideas up to Lv 16) Or just leave the group (character, not physically)? Or try and repair the character with levels of fighter (which is my plan now)?

My gaming session is tomorrow and I am tempted to prepare a substitute character and tell my DM: "I check the enemy fortress for entry points and try to assassinate the master summoner of the faction." "Why?" "Because I ****ed EVERYTHING up until that point and want to prove my worth to the group."

Fighter would just be throwing good levels after bad imo. There are worse choices of course but fighter won't really solve the problems you're having (certainly not the out-of-combat ones.) If anything I would multiclass monk and use the rogue ki pool talent to boost your acrobatics and speed. Since it works like the ninja pool they will stack.

Krazzman

2013-10-21, 12:35 PM

Posted for relevance:

Ninja Guide:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dEZyEP-yooZdGprglxcEorpL_EnPfUqr6M89uHmF8Bo/edit?pli=1

Rogue Eidolon's Rogue guide:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/rogue-eidolon-s-lab/rogue-eidolon-s-guide-to-rogues

Bravo's Knife Master Scout:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B703BEBAUgBxQm9Xbm1fOFdzYXM/edit?usp=sharing

Gnaeus

2013-10-21, 12:38 PM

I think cutting off the fingers is more than fair.

In an actual medieval society, attempting to steal something valuable would likely have been a felony, resulting in death. Far lesser thefts, like poaching, could result in death or mutilation. In a Dwarven community (which I would usually imagine to be incredibly lawful, with a side of super-greedy and paranoid about thieves) I would have just had your character executed in a no-way to raise manner.

In a more modern style D&D society, stealing a magic item would be more or less equivalent to major felony theft, like grand theft auto. You will be looking at some serious jail time. This should be read as, your PC will be out of the game unless you can break out of a dwarven prison.

I wouldn't warn a player about the punishments for stealing in a dwarven town unless he was a dwarf, or made appropriate knowledge or maybe gather information rolls. But what did you think was going to happen? You were trying to steal something that is way more than a years wages for most people. Slap on the wrist and a dirty look? I think the DM was being nice to let you keep playing the character.

Psyren

2013-10-21, 12:39 PM

And again, attempting to (a) rob the NPCs that are on your side, and (b) do so under a paladin's nose are not exactly the smartest decisions to make in a game, however IC they may have been.

Person_Man

2013-10-21, 12:51 PM

Flanking isn't so bad if you have a reach weapon. Kusarigama is great for this since you can TWF with it from 10ft. away. Though of course this does push you towards Ninja again.

Agreed. But until/unless you work out some sort of workaround (like a Summons or special "counts as flanking but it's not really flanking ability), the Rogue is usually positioning themselves directly behind multiple enemies, which allows those enemies to quickly counter attack, when they should be trying to stand behind a meat shield. The Rogue makes themselves a tempting target, potentially for multiple enemies, when they should be trying to avoid attacks.

Did they bring spellthief over to PF?

Nope. Though for what it's worth, here's a homebrew solution (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15644644). (Which can also easily be used as a homebrew fix for the 3.5 Spellthief as well).

Big Fau

2013-10-21, 12:57 PM

Long post in short: No ninjas, no UMD, no magic, no eastern warfare.

You're boned. Sneak Attack is all you've got left, and that's just not as good as it used to be. Trapfinding is bad in PF (since everyone can do it), UMD was a vital skill, Splash bombs don't work with Sneak Attack, and the Ninja was outright superior to the Rogue.

Change characters, there's very little we can do to help you with this one.

Spore

2013-10-21, 01:05 PM

And again, attempting to (a) rob the NPCs that are on your side, and (b) do so under a paladin's nose are not exactly the smartest decisions to make in a game, however IC they may have been.

To be honest, while my character isn't dumb (INT 14) he is on the brink of carelessness (former WIS 8).

Also the dwarf society pissed me off. Both as player and character. They are extremely xenophobic, they even hate our "fallen" dwarf comrade and for freeing their extremely important and holy cathedral from the grips of undead, constructs and a lich, all we get is some gruff remarks and murmured thanks as well as the contracted gold and item rewards.

Not to mention the battalion sent out by the order of our paladin to help defend them from undead.

Half of the human settlement in the desert nearly worshipped us for donating a decanter of endless water THAT WAS STOLEN FROM A LOCAL MERCHANT. Also while the paladin is great at sense motive checks an exploding dragon dropping its breath upon a city could barely be noticed (perception 0).

That's your choice - but without some kind of supernatural edge you're likely going to keep being surprised and frustrated. Without magic of some kind or large amounts of wealth the odds are heavily against you avoiding detection, particularly vs. monsters with extranormal senses like darkvision or tremorsense.

I know. That was one of the main reasons I started robbing dwarves. For me the rogue isn't as much as a physical fighting machine and more of a financial benefactor to the group. Apparently no one likes that style of play in this campaign. Hence the thread title.

Fighter would just be throwing good levels after bad imo. There are worse choices of course but fighter won't really solve the problems you're having (certainly not the out-of-combat ones.) If anything I would multiclass monk and use the rogue ki pool talent to boost your acrobatics and speed. Since it works like the ninja pool they will stack.

Did I mention my WIS 10 and CN Alignment? Perhaps not. Also not surprising: DM hates monks since we had a terrible one in another group and it is part of the eastern culture. Yeah he's a nazi like that.

You're boned. Sneak Attack is all you've got left, and that's just not as good as it used to be. Trapfinding is bad in PF (since everyone can do it), UMD was a vital skill, Splash bombs don't work with Sneak Attack, and the Ninja was outright superior to the Rogue.

Change characters, there's very little we can do to help you with this one.

Alrighty then. How about an alchemist? I have read the class is just as bad as rogues are. But being a chemistry enthusiast (future science teacher and all), I really want to try it if it doesnt "do me over" like the rogue did.

ArqArturo

2013-10-21, 01:08 PM

I don't hate rogues; I love rogues. Some salt, a squeeze of lime, some hot sauce, delicious.

Spore

2013-10-21, 01:13 PM

I don't hate rogues; I love rogues. Some salt, a squeeze of lime, some hot sauce, delicious.

I'd prefer a tequila over my character sheet any day.

What will you make your substitute character? The DM will probably still want you to play the trapfinder, and your party looks like it could use a full divine caster.

Druid with the Summon Elemental reserve feat in CM could be substituted for a Rogue, as the free elementals could be used to Nodwick all the traps. This is assuming you're doing PF feats at every odd level, to put Natural Spell at 5th and Summon Elemental at 7th.

Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) with the Trickery and Kobold (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) (reflavored Trap) domains is a great substitute for a Rogue. Make the character some sort of Elf (Snow Elf in Frostburn, otherwise Wild or Wood Elf), take one or two levels in Ruathar, and dip a single level of Seeker of the Misty Isle, then keep taking Cloistered Cleric. Maybe get Divine Oracle, gaining its feat prerequisite via the Frog God's Fane in CS instead of spending a feat on it, and/or Contemplative, but either of those will severely hinder your skills. It can still work though, thanks to Guidance of the Avatar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) and similar.

It's like you are speaking Spanish. We play PF and only core stuff is allowed. No Golarion stuff since it's a fan made setting.

Arbane

2013-10-21, 01:46 PM

It's like you are speaking Spanish. We play PF and only core stuff is allowed. No Golarion stuff since it's a fan made setting.

Bwah? I thought Golarion was the official PF setting.

Vortenger

2013-10-21, 02:00 PM

Alchemist, eh? Try a Vivisectionist Beastmorph Alchemist and feel like a rogue who drank Chemical X and actually kicks tail. Keep all the things you like about melee rogue (sneak attack, lots of attacks, useful at skills), and gain the ability to be MacGuyver while rending flesh as a Shoggoth. I strongly suggest the master alchemist feat if you plan on using alchemy or poison to augment your style at all. The time it saves is immense in a standard campaign.

Obligatory link for awesomeness: The Alchemist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15652548)

Spore

2013-10-21, 02:00 PM

Still we don't use it. :tongue:

Psyren

2013-10-21, 02:12 PM

Alchemist sounds like it would solve a lot of your problems, though you have to go with the rather weak Cryptbreaker archetype to get Trapfinding.

I would go with a Sound Striker Detective Bard myself.

Spore

2013-10-21, 02:34 PM

I will ditch trapfinding with a substitute character. I think a dwarven barbarian is all we need for "disarming" traps. I was thinking more along the lines of Preservationist with the corresponding "Planar Preservationist" which is really a great feat with a baked-in adventure motivation.

Gotta Ketchum all. ya know?

Psyren

2013-10-21, 02:37 PM

I was thinking that, since your DM wanted you to play that role, presenting a (more powerful) class that still had that ability would increase your chances of getting it signed off.

Having said that, if you can get Preservationist approved, by all means go for it. They're one of the strongest summoners in the game thanks to standard-action summoning and access to both lists up to IX.

Spore

2013-10-21, 02:41 PM

I am really at a point where I won't really care about what the DM 'wants' anymore. I wanted to describe my predicament and why I chose rogue - again - not impede my substitute character. If my alchemist sees summons as disposable trap scouts, all the better. I am sure an earth elemental setting off poison and acid traps won't mind.

When I go as far and kill off his favorite PC I might as well get the class I want.

Psyren

2013-10-21, 02:47 PM

Before you go down this road, maybe sit and have a talk with him - it may be that he simply isn't aware of how little fun you're having with your rogue.

Spore

2013-10-21, 02:58 PM

Before you go down this road, maybe sit and have a talk with him - it may be that he simply isn't aware of how little fun you're having with your rogue.

We have the equivalent of 12 hour talk in cars, via ICQ or during sessions. He is very skilled in convincing me that my character "is okay". I already know that I am a minmaxer.

I was allowed to change feats, spells and the afore mentioned complete rehaul not 2 months ago. I really just show up for the sake of courtesy anymore. This, and because he is in my other two groups where he is a good albeit narrow minded player.

Krazzman

2013-10-21, 04:32 PM

To sum it up:

he is against anything non-western but also against gunslingers.
You said he is a "Nazi" which at least I don't see as Xenophobic anymore but a few steps beyond.
You don't have fun for retarded in-game consequences.

Just leave. Tell him you don't have the time to support a third group atm due to stress or whatever and go do something else. Maybe join them again later.

Else: Look at the stuff I posted. You can change the Rogue to the stuff I posted.

Another option: GO Inquisitor, Heretic with the feather domain. You get skillmonkeying, spells and combat utility via teamwork feats.

My Inquisitor is just level 1 but from his abilities he's helluva lot fun.

Cambrian

2013-10-21, 04:46 PM

A nice little trick for any Alchemist:
A level 2 extract called Aram Zey's Focus (pg. 56 PFS field guide) will grant you "the trapfinding ability of a rogue of half your character level" for 1min/lvl. This is awesome because you don't need trapfinding to find traps-- you just need it to disable magical traps. Also an Alchemist has Perception and Disable Device as class skills, and with a couple extracts (e.g. Cat's Grace) your check will be close to a rogue's (if needed; magical trap DC scales half as fast your Disable Device skill)

Coidzor

2013-10-21, 10:35 PM

It's like you are speaking Spanish. We play PF and only core stuff is allowed. No Golarion stuff since it's a fan made setting.

...You're making it sound more and more like the issue is a short between the chair and DM screen.

Spore

2013-10-21, 11:08 PM

...You're making it sound more and more like the issue is a short between the chair and DM screen.

Come again? I am a foreigner. I don't catch your drift here. If I could pinpoint the issue I would do something about it. If you mean the GM then this is partly true.

We have our our source books and a defined setting. It's just that he dislikes half of it =/

Another option: GO Inquisitor, Heretic with the feather domain. You get skillmonkeying, spells and combat utility via teamwork feats.

I considered that. Garuda-Spawn with wings via feats and bow talents. A little feat starved, but I would take combat feats AFTER utility/flight feats.

Problem is that we would LOVE to have an archer in the group since Barb is melee and Paladin hasn't got a single ranged feat. And we had to FORCE our sorcerer to take magic missile.

Cassidius

2013-10-21, 11:46 PM

I hate that you switched away from arcane trickster, but speaking as someone that is playing one now I understand why you did. I think if you had stuck with it you would have found it more satisfying, because you are just a couple levels away from it being fun, as opposed to being just a pain to get into.

I think that if you focus on using the spells for amplifying your rogue abilities it's hard to really "suck" at them.

Rogue abilities not getting you inside the fort, cast disguise self and walk right in, or cast spider climb and just walk over the wall, or turn invisible and sneak right past the guards, or fly... or teleport... You get the idea.

As far as character suicide goes, I'd vote against it... But sometimes things happen :smallamused:

Spore

2013-10-21, 11:50 PM

I plan on disguising myself (Disguise Hat) as the interloper that captured our npc cleric and ask the enemy wizard some misleading questions while casually shoving two sword under his ugly duergar beard.

TuggyNE

2013-10-22, 01:28 AM

Come again? I am a foreigner. I don't catch your drift here.

The term comes from the computer world, where "Problem Exists Between Chair And Keyboard" (PEBCAK, or similar acronyms) is used to subtly suggest it's a matter of human error, not a software or hardware problem.

Spore

2013-10-22, 03:47 AM

Thanks. I get it now. When you understand it it isn't really subtle though :smallsmile:

@ Cassidius

Yeah. I regret it dearly. I had some moments in the last sessions where an invisibility, dark vision or levitate would've helped greatly.

Cassidius

2013-10-22, 04:40 PM

Well I don't know how your GM does it, but mine allows for two respecs of a character, one before level 10 and one after. Talk to your GM, maybe he will be on board with this. I should note that he requires three hero points to do so, but I think it's fair.

Spore

2013-10-22, 04:50 PM

I already HAD a respec. My error was to think pure rogue is better than trickster.

Btw I am back from my gaming night today. We basically had a bit of scouting empty rooms with toothless enemies and two fights. One where I knocked myself unconscious. The other were I really couldn't be effective where I scouted ahead for additional dangers.

Kind of a "meh" evening for me. =/

Psyren

2013-10-22, 05:07 PM

Did you talk to your DM? Again, he can do a lot more to help you have fun than a bunch of random strangers on a forum.

Spore

2013-10-22, 05:28 PM

georgie_leech

2013-10-22, 07:10 PM

I will do it when I can switch classes. We are kind of in a dwarven dungeon in the underdark. We can't just let a new character "show up", even though it is the evil duergar mercenary fortress, because I really want to play a surface elf and not a drow. NO I AM NOT CALLED DRIZZIT GODDAMNIT!

Prisoner with Class levels? Petrified former hero? Magical teleportation experiment gone wrong, resulting in a cloud of smoke and a very confused, displaced elf? There are plenty of ways to insert new characters in D&D.

The Grue

2013-10-22, 07:30 PM

I can't believe no one's said this yet but...Spring Attack. Granted, it's incompatible with TWF, but as a Rogue why are you standing in one place for a full-round attack anyway?

Dip Shadowdancer for HiPS, coupled with Spring Attack you can now dash out of hiding, hit something, dash back within 5ft of shadow and disappear. Rinse and repeat next round, assuming you've conviced your DM to use the why-haven't-these-been-made-official-yet PF Stealth Playtest rules (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lcml).

Full-attacking from TWF is just going to get you killed; you don't have the HP to take a lot of hits, and you aren't wearing heavy armor unless you're a Rogue that doesn't care about Dex. Your best defense is mobility and stealth. Use thatr. Beg your DM to let you drop TWF and rebuild your feat/talent selection, use the extra feats on things that actually help a Rogue. Agile Maneuvers adds a lot of utility options to your combat arsenal, for one.

TWF is a "trap" for Rogue players. It requires a lot of feats to be good, and a good attack bonus to keep hitting; Rogues are kind of feat-starved, and don't have very good BAB progression, which is why you're finding yourself missing a lot and short on feats to do what you want. My advice is play to the strengths of your class, or reroll a TWF Fighter or Ranger.

Psyren

2013-10-22, 08:06 PM

Prisoner with Class levels? Petrified former hero? Magical teleportation experiment gone wrong, resulting in a cloud of smoke and a very confused, displaced elf? There are plenty of ways to insert new characters in D&D.

But that requires ima....imagi...imagina.... make-believe-stuff! :smalltongue:

Spore

2013-10-23, 06:38 PM

TWF is a "trap" for Rogue players. It requires a lot of feats to be good, and a good attack bonus to keep hitting; Rogues are kind of feat-starved, and don't have very good BAB progression, which is why you're finding yourself missing a lot and short on feats to do what you want. My advice is play to the strengths of your class, or reroll a TWF Fighter or Ranger.

I gotta have to thank RogueEidolon for this trap then. Seem's like I didn't find the trap *badumtish*

Psyren

2013-10-23, 06:59 PM

Crustypeanut

2013-10-23, 07:28 PM

While I doubt your DM would be into these playtest rules Since he seems like a bit of a douchebag when it comes to rogues, try to see if he'll allow these:

Stealth Playtest Rules (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lcml#discuss)

These rules are more friendly to the modern rogue. I've been using them in my homebrew Pathfinder campaign Road to Damnation, and though they haven't seen a ton of use yet, they seem very promising.

Also.. your DM considers Golarion to be 'fan made'? Or is the setting that you guys using the fan-made one? I'm going to headdesk if its the former..

Cambrian

2013-10-23, 08:06 PM

Hitting is actually easy once you start piling on buffs, either your own or from your party. TWF Fighters and Rangers have a hard time matching the damage output from optimized sneak attack - only a 2H fighter can beat it.For a single target a Greater Invisibility on the Rogue can do significantly more damage (and help attacks hitting) than most spells at that level and has the added bonus of helping to keeping the rogue safe.

Still not necessarily the most optimal spell (usually encounter control is, i.e. Black Tentacles at that level), but it can often be applied prior to combat-- so when possible it doesn't even require "an action" just a spell slot.

Like most mundane classes they are best when working in unison with magic support. Though a rogue with UMD can get it as a wand to not even require wizard support. It's expensive given it's a 4th level spell but if possible a Summoner can make a cheaper version (3rd level spell).

Spore

2013-10-24, 05:18 AM

Also.. your DM considers Golarion to be 'fan made'? Or is the setting that you guys using the fan-made one? I'm going to headdesk if its the former..

No we use a fan made one.

For a single target a Greater Invisibility on the Rogue can do significantly more damage (and help attacks hitting) than most spells at that level and has the added bonus of helping to keeping the rogue safe.

Well we have a sorcerer and we have to level up very soon. And he gets to take a Lv 4 spell. But I am not sure if getting Greater Invis is the best when he doesnt even know Tentacles yet. He will have Poison and Confusion and one free pick by then.

Psyren

2013-10-24, 08:27 AM

How's he getting Poison? That's a cleric/druid spell.

Are you using 3.5 Confusion or PF Confusion? They are significantly different.

Spore

2013-10-24, 08:28 AM

Fey bloodline. We play Pathfinder as stated in the title. So both the sorcerer's bloodline and PF confusion.

Belial_the_Leveler

2013-10-24, 09:12 AM

1) Mithral Chain Shirt +2, +2 composite longbow, belt of str/dex/con +2, cloak of resistance +2, ring of protection +1, amulet of natural armor +1. As soon as you can manage, you should get Sniper Goggles or even Improved Sniper Goggles so you can sneak attack at any range, and get +2 damage per sneak attack dice at a cost of 20.000 gp. Following purchases for later levels should be Celestial Mithral Plate Armor, for a maximum dexterity bonus of +8, armor check penalty of -1, armor bonus of +11, ability to fly 1/day and counting as light armor for most purposes, at a cost of 29.000 gp.

2) Scout Archetype. It does not replace trapfinding stuff that your DM insists you must have but gives up Uncanny Dodge. However each time you move more than 10 ft per round you get to deal sneak attack damage even without flanking or denying dexterity bonus to AC.

3) Bleeding attack, Beffudling Strike, Sniper's Eye. One more talent of your choice.

4) Tiefling for the dexterity bonus, intelligence bonus, stealth/bluff bonus and darkvision.

5) Assuming 25 point-buy, your ability scores will be, including items;
Str 16, Dex 22, Con 18, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 6

6) Feats should include Armor of the Pit and Toughness.

OK, you now have the following;

AC 26 (+6 dex, +6 armor, +3 natural, +1 deflection)
HP 80 (40 base, +32 constitution, +8 toughness)
Attack +14 range for 1d8+5+4d6 +4 bleed +beffudlement

Yes, a fighter will still outdamage and outtough you because rogues still are one of the weakest classes in PF. But with your GM insisting about you being the trapmonkey you can't do anything else.

Psyren

2013-10-24, 09:17 AM

Fey bloodline. We play Pathfinder as stated in the title. So both the sorcerer's bloodline and PF confusion.

The title actually says "3.P" so it's not clear which trumps in the event of a conflict.

5) Assuming 25 point-buy, your ability scores will be, including items;
Str 16, Dex 22, Con 18, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 6

I would definitely not pump Str and Con that high at the expense of Wis. You don't get a lot of extra damage out of it (no power attack etc.) and just about any half-decent Will save takes you completely out of the fight, leaving you a drooling simpleton or worse. And if you're getting hit you're not doing your job, so 18 Con isn't needed either.

Spore

2013-10-24, 10:17 AM

The title actually says "3.P" so it's not clear which trumps in the event of a conflict.

So that's why people have been suggesting 3.5 material. Thank you. I can be very thick some times.

@ Belial

For that I would need

a) not to be wearing custom made artifact armor with backstory and ****. He would be disappointed if he had done so much work for nothing.

b) having index finger and middle finger of my right hand not cut off by dwarves.

c) a huge pile of cash NOT invested in two magic short swords, elven cloak and stuff.

d) be able to restat my character.

I will find a solution soon, be it a aasimar heretic, or summoner with skill monkey eidolon, or preservationist alchemist with planar preservation.

Most likely a summoner, since the MHBs are full of skill monkey summons and we desperately need the flexibility + a buff caster.

Coidzor

2013-10-24, 05:46 PM

Summoners are pretty good, yeah.

Crustypeanut

2013-10-24, 08:30 PM

...you can make a damned good rogue-ish Eidolon with a Summoner, too!

The summons and spells are just icing on the cake after that.

Angelalex242

2013-10-25, 12:50 AM

Concerning Sneak Attack.

The guy who plays rogues in our game was married to a feat called 'Flick of the Wrist.' Which he used EVERY turn for all of his attacks in violation of what Flick of the Wrist actually does, which I guess meant he had Epic Flick of the Wrist.

Another_Poet

2013-10-25, 01:53 AM

You know, you kind of sound heck-bent on the suicide approach. But I have had really good experiences with rogues in PF. Here are some thoughts.

As for now, I am a TWF rogue 8 with TWF, Weapon Focus (Shortsword), Rogue Finesse, Step Up

Have you gotten much use out of Step Up? I'd retrain.

Improved Initiative

I understand why Rogue players take this, bit it's a feat that gives a small increased chance of 1 sneak attack per battle. Maybe retrain?

Quick Draw

What.

Weapon Focus (Shortsword)

Dude...

I am at 79 HP and have an AC of 21.

A base AC of 21 is fine, but how are you boosting this? Do have potions of Shield and other defensive spells (or better, wands)? If not I would suggest that that, not any weakness of sneak attack, is why you have had 10 near death experiences.

I keep being frustrated by surprise fights where I don't have the mobility to flank, the time to hide and surprise people, or the feats to feint and TWF.

This surprises me. Many, maybe most, D&D fights are surprise fights; the rare case where the party ambushes the enemy is hard to count on. But yet I've seen Rogues get their sneak attacks routinely in every game I've run (or played in).

How is your Acrobatics? You only need to make a DC 15+2 per square for most situations; almost never more than 19. (That scary DC 25 is only when you're tumbling directly through an enemy.) At level 8 you should have +15 (min. 4 Dex + 8 ranks +3 class skill bonus =+15).
How tactically do you look at the map? You don't have to move in a straight line. You can Delay action until the other party members move. You can Ready a charging sneak attack for when someone moves into position.
Do your allies help you? I've always seen Fighter/Ranger/Paladin types work actively to give the Rogue flank. Since they can take more hits than you, this is a win-win. They get to charge into glory and you get to cover their behind with sweet, sweet Sneak Attack. Consider going to the Paladin and offering a deal: I'm willing to repent my wicked ways if you will back me up in combat. (This is almost perfect for a low-Wis rogue character, thinking of religion as a bargain you make instead of an act of devotion.)
How often do you use both weapons? If you're missing a lot, just use one. Less penalties.
Are you using magic to grant concealment, and thus Sneak? A wand of Invisibility + UMD, or a friendly request to your party Arcanist for Invisibility, will go a long way.
Glitterdust? Obscuring Mist? Anything?
Magic items that improve Stealth or grant Concealment?

shadows which kill me with 3-4 touches

Shadows deal Str damage, which leaves you paralyzed, not dead.

Take a level of Shadowdancer by character level 6 or 8 so you can HiPs in combat.

This is a very good idea and would change your whole life at Level 9.

I don't play Pathfinder... Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) helps with flanking, a war-trained riding dog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dogRiding.htm)... has great mobility and... can trip opponents to help you land more hits.

I doubt this GM will allow Wild Cohort, but battle-trained dogs are core in PF, and can indeed make a great flanking partner. I once had a character with three of them, each with a set of barding, and it was one of the greatest investments I ever made--far batter than magical weapons or armor. You'll want some Handle Animal ranks though.

Really, a rogue (even without bow fingers) can be a lot of fun and I'm surprised you're having such a hard time. (And yeah, get a Restoration already for the bow fingers.)

The one thing I want to emphasize more than anything else is that if you feel like you have to commit suicide to enjoy the game, you should talk to your DM. I've been in that situation as DM and no DM takes that as a good sign. If it's that serious, they will likely feel bad that you've been pushed to this point and work with you to improve things.

TuggyNE

2013-10-25, 02:58 AM

Shadows deal Str damage, which leaves you paralyzed, not dead.

Well, it would leave you paralyzed normally, but Shadows are "special", in that they kill anything they reduce to Str 0.

Another_Poet

2013-10-25, 03:11 AM

Well, it would leave you paralyzed normally, but Shadows are "special", in that they kill anything they reduce to Str 0.

Ha! I forgot that. Okay, carry on.

Also, I was thinking more about AC. 21 at level 8? Even without spells that seems low.

10 + 4 Dex + 4 armor + 3 armor enchantment bonus + 1 deflection + 1 natural armor =23.

A +2 buckler is also possible, as is increasing the deflection or natural armor, though that's more expensive. So base AC 26 is within reach. Seriously buff your AC as much as you can. You're a rogue!

Spore

2013-10-25, 06:28 AM

First of all, I retrained EVERYTHING three months ago. Needless to say it went terribly wrong.

1) No use out of Step Up.
2) No imp. initiative. I see your point it's really only vital for casters.
3) AC consists of +2 Chainmail and +5 Dex. No deflection, no DEX belt, no nat armor neck. I am not actively boosting here.
4) As for tactics I am actually quite terrible. The barbarian is the charging retard and the paladin doesnt care as he is positioning himself to be hit by as many monsters as needed. So I should react to the Paladin if anything at all. Charging sneaks are a great idea.
5) I am missing a lot with TWF. Still I want to get SOMETHING out of that feat.
6) For stealth I use an elven cloak (+5) to boost myself to +21 Sneak.

Okay so what my alternative idea is to change as FEW talents as possible to repair the character to use the following:

Baddie McBadderson Vanilla PF rogue -> Scout
(Hu = Human talent, Ro = Rogue talent Red are things I would consider to retrain)
Hu) Improved Initiative -> Dodge
1) Two Weapon Fighting -> Mobility
2) Ro: Rogue Finesse
3) Quick Draw -> Alertness
4) Ro: Weapon Trick (Short Sword) = Weapon Focus
5) Step Up -> Skill Focus (Perception)
6) Ro: Defensive Offensive (+4 AC after Sneak)
7) Toughness
8) Ro: Improved Two Weapon Fighting. -> Spring Attack

Could that salvage anything? This gives me +8 AC after a charging sneak vs. AoO (covering my ass vs. damage), +1 AC regularly, +5 on Perception (boost it to +15, which is still very poor, but I gain +5 out of my armor) and +2 on Sense Motive. There are still some suboptimal choices but bear in mind that I had to talk to him for 3 hours for a retcon the last time.

Callin

2013-10-25, 06:33 AM

Sounds like yall could use some teamwork. Would help out the group alot more in the long run. Tactics is a key part of this game.

Krazzman

2013-10-25, 07:23 AM

Spore

2013-10-25, 07:39 AM

Knife Master looses out on trap finding. And this is a feature which is essential for my character's backstory.

The Grue

2013-10-25, 08:40 AM

Another_Poet

2013-10-25, 01:53 PM

3) AC consists of +2 Chainmail and +5 Dex. No deflection, no DEX belt, no nat armor neck. I am not actively boosting here.

Is this a choice on your part or does the GM just make these items hard to procure? A 2,000 gp Ring or Protection +1 should not be too hard to get at Level 8 in a normal game.

5) I am missing a lot with TWF. Still I want to get SOMETHING out of that feat.

You will, when facing mobs of low-AC enemies. But in many battles, consider just 1 attack per round. Better to hit once than miss twice.

Okay so what my alternative idea is to change as FEW talents as possible to repair the character to use the following...

You really care that much about your Perception, to put two feats into it?

I mean, Max ranks in Perception gives you a decent chance on its own. And honestly, Perception is what GM's fudge the most... if they want you to be ambushed, that DC is suddenly 35, and if they want you to find the secret door, suddenly it's DC 15.

As an alternative you could put those feats into Improved Trip, or some of the Critical Hit feats, or boosting saves, or even a weapon proficiency (Sneak Attack with a Greatsword or Glaive beats a Shortsword any day.)

Or lots of things. Skills get skill points. Save feats for better stuff.

Spore

2013-10-25, 02:08 PM

Is this a choice on your part or does the GM just make these items hard to procure? A 2,000 gp Ring or Protection +1 should not be too hard to get at Level 8 in a normal game.

Mine. We had the demi god of trade appear in the poor dwarven city. He is kind of our "adventurer's super duper mart". Along with astonishingly fair prices for a teleporting god.

You really care that much about your Perception, to put two feats into it?

I roll quite poorly on important rolls and I have looked up some trap DCs. I am further away from finding them, disabling them isn't as much a deal. And I really fear expect the day where I overlook a trap and get killed.

MightyPirate

2013-10-25, 03:15 PM

You could organize that a bit better. As long as you're human anyway you want focus study for the doubling of skill focus. One stays in Perception and the other goes to a knowledge of your choice so you can switch alertness to eldritch heritage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/eldritch-heritage) for a familiar that snags you alertness back, a sweet bonus and it can even aid you for an additional +2 on almost anything. I'd recommend something that boosts initiative, can talk, or maybe an owl for even better perception in dark dungeons.

It sucks not having darkvision but if you can live long enough Shadowdancer can help with that. In the mean time grab some Eyes of the Eagle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/eyes-of-the-eagle)for another great perception boost. If you got an owl helping you spot for traps that should be (8 ranks+ 3 familiar+ 3 skill focus+ 5 Eyes of the Eagle+ 4 Trapfinding+ 2 aid action+ Wisdom ?) 26-45. That's a pretty good range and if you're failing trap checks at your level while in that range you probably rolled less than a 4 or your dm is out to dine on rogue soup tonight. Oh and you'll need a charisma of at least 13. If you don't have that on a rogue then I just want you to know that you have shamed me. :smallamused:

Spore

2013-10-25, 03:39 PM

I would prefer a new character from a respec so I will ask my DM for one: Continue here please. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16291111#post16291111)

Spore

2013-11-05, 11:36 AM

I would prefer a new character from a respec so I will ask my DM for one: Continue here please. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16291111#post16291111)

I am now off to my (hopefully) last evening with my rogue. I kind of pissed of my DM, but I think, I successfully ripped off my plot armor in the process.

Callin

2013-11-05, 11:49 AM

Have Fun Storming the Castle!

Coidzor

2013-11-05, 12:07 PM

I am now off to my (hopefully) last evening with my rogue. I kind of pissed of my DM, but I think, I successfully ripped off my plot armor in the process.

Good luck.

Arbane

2013-11-05, 12:42 PM

Good luck.

But if he has GOOD luck, his character won't die!

Dimcair

2013-11-05, 02:30 PM

I would blame the DM here.

1. Never tell your players what to play

2. YOU as DM set the freakin' DCs for the traps.... set them lower so sb else can find them. I find traps as redundant and unnecesarry anyways unless they are pointed out to the player in some way and made into a "how do we get past the fire trap" puzzle. Walking around and failing a single dice roll and DIE is not exactly the game i want to play.

3. If you as a DM dont like certain classes cause of their eastern style RENAME them but dont let people play magic flinging Wizards but forbid a ninja because he is called "ninja".

I would talk to him about his general approach there. Telling you what to play and then cutting of your fingers for trying to have some fun with the class he pushex you into.

And on a side note, "and then I rolled perception, found the trap and disabled it" is not a sentence you will use a lot when remembering your sessions. So why do they exist in their current state?

HylianKnight

2013-11-05, 03:04 PM

I picked vanilla rogue because the DM stated, I HAD to be the trap monkey. So no archetypes for me.

Two things:
1) Your DM may be misunderstanding the Pathfinder mechanics. One of the problems with 3.5 (quoted in one of the early posts) is that they did artificial things to make Rogue's super relevant, like making them the only ones that could look for traps. That's dumb. One of the CENTRAL parts of dungeons are traps. The idea that the game called Dungeons and Dragons forces every party to have a Rogue or lose that part of the game is absurd.

Make sure your DM knows in Pathfinder that is not the case. Anyone with Perception can find traps, and anyone with ranks in Disable Device can try and disable them (once played a game where the Half-Elf Druid was the best at finding traps for me to disarm). So while Trap Finding and Trap Sense makes you the best at finding traps, losing it does not prevent you from doing so. You can take whatever archetype you want, max Disable Device and Perception and not really notice much of a difference.

2) There are archetypes that replace Evasion and Uncanny Dodge instead. Bandit, Burglar, Sanctified Rogue, Scout, and Trapsmith.

Of these Scout's are my favorite. As the name suggests, it attempts to emulate the Scout class from 3.5. At level 8 it allows you to do Sneak Attack damage whenever you move more than 10 feet in a round. I've found this to be very fun Spring Attack build. Grab, the Offensive Defense Rogue Talent, and at level you can consistently do 5d6 worth of Sneak Attack damage every round, dancing around to try and stay out of reach, and giving yourself a bonus +5 to your AC. A 2 level dip in Shadowdancer allows you to HiPS during this process (Stealth doesn't require an action, its' done as part of movement), and you get back Evasion and Uncanny Dodge from level 2.