Blackguard Caster Build?

[Xuldarinar]

"The blackguard epitomizes evil. He is nothing short of a mortal fiend. The quintessential black knight, this villain carries a reputa- tion of the foulest sort that is very well deserved. Consorting with demons and devils and serving dark deities, the blackguard is hated and feared by all. Some people call these villains anti-paladins due to their completely evil nature.
The blackguard has many options available to him—sending forth dark minions and servants to do his bidding, attacking with stealth and honorless guile, or straightforward smiting of the forces of good that stand in his way. Fighters, ex-paladins, rangers, monks, druids, and barbarians make for indomitable combat-oriented blackguards, while rogues and bards who become blackguards are likely to stress the subtle aspects of their abilities and spells. Sorcerers, wizards, and clerics who become blackguards are sometimes called diabolists and favor dealing with fiends even more than other blackguards do."

The blackguard, a sub-optimal PrC from the DMG. Looking over it, I cannot help but wonder about something it says. "Diabolist" blackguards. Pulling off a standard blackguard is tough enough I imagine, but can one pull off an effective caster/blackguard? If so, how?

[Starmage21]

The blackguard, a sub-optimal PrC from the DMG. Looking over it, I cannot help but wonder about something it says. "Diabolist" blackguards. Pulling off a standard blackguard is tough enough I imagine, but can one pull off an effective caster/blackguard? If so, how?

You couldnt even really use one in a gish build. They could be a base class all their own with the class features they offer, especially as a mockery of the paladin.

[Arc_knight25]

If you like that blackguard, you can use the Paladin varients from UA. Gives the Paladin of Tyranny (LE) or Paladin of Slaughter (CE). Both give alot of the goods of Blackguard. You give up the SA, Command undead and use poison. But you get Rebuke undead, which can feed divine feats.

[WinWin]

It is dependant on trading in Paladin Levels for Blackguard levels which will leave you something like:

Ex Paladin (or variant paladin) 1 /Blackguard 10 at 11th level.

You can then jump into Nar Demonbinder and get up to 8th level spells. Mix and match with any high spell level requirement prestige classes you can now qualify for, such as Escalation Mage or Thuamaturgist.

[Telonius]

As-written, it's not possible. (EDIT: Absent Nar Demonbinder ... keep forgetting about that one, where was it printed?) Even leaving aside the fact that it has its own casting progression (doesn't increase any other class's casting) that only gives up to 4th-level spells, it has three feats that are pretty much useless to a caster as prereqs. So you'd be giving up as many levels in caster progression as you take in Blackguard, plus three precious feats, in return for some lower-level spells and a higher BAB. If any Imp could sell that deal, I'd promote him to Falxugon instantly.

If you were going to make a Blackguard-esque caster character, I suppose you'd have to combine one of the Evil Paladin variants with Prestige Paladin, rearranging the requirements and benefits of Prestige Paladin and only taking a few levels of it before going back to Cleric.

[Red Fel]

I think Nar Demonbinder was Unapproachable East.

As for Blackguard, I'm going with Tel on this one - Blackguard, or any Paladin-type, isn't a good choice for advancing spellcasting. Despite the fluff, it's just a bad choice for spellcasting progression.

What would a caster be trying to do, taking Blackguard? Get a smite and a sneak attack? Use poison? You have spells. Taking Blackguard doesn't even seem like stagnation; it seems like an active nerf.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I seriously doubt the designers even considered any Caster-Blackguard builds in playtesting, and were simply talking out of their asses at the end of that flavor text paragraph.

Maybe if Blackguard gave "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" at its 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 8th, and 9th level it could be useful on a primary caster. In its current state, it's not even worth considering. You're better off dipping two levels in Paladin of Tyranny or Slaughter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny) or using Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin) of Tyranny or Slaughter over Blackguard on any such build. If you want an evil caster with a Blackguard flavor, check out Ur-Priest in Complete Divine, especially its adaptation section.

[Xuldarinar]

Given that it seems optimal in any case to go from fallen paladin to blackguard (ex-paladin 1/blackguard 10), I'm left to wonder something.

If the character completes a rebuild quest, could we argue that he could replace that level of (ex)paladin without affecting his levels in blackguard?


If this is legal:


Spellthief 1 (rebuilt from ex-paladin 1)/Blackguard 10/Nar Demonbinder 7

Take the master spellthief and battle caster feats to allow the demonbinder spells to be cast without ASF in up to medium armor, not to mention steal spell for up to 4th level spells.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That's definitely a possibility, though you can still only have a number of stolen spell levels up to your Spellthief class level. That means with only one level of Spellthief, any spell of 2nd level or higher that you steal is instantly lost before you can even use it.

Also remember that Nar Demonbinder requires Knowledge: the Planes 10 ranks, which Blackguard doesn't get as a class skill. You'll probably need to get Knowledge Devotion at 3rd level to gain that as a class skill while you're still a Paladin, unless you can retrain into it or get a Psychic Reformation.

If your DM gives you a lot of freedom in retraining class levels, then you could go Fallen Paladin 11 into Blackguard 10/ Fallen Paladin 1, get a Psychic Reformation to fix your feats/skills, then retrain it to Blackguard 7/ Nar Demonbinder 4. You would need Wis 18 at least temporarily, as once you have a level in Nar Demonbinder it meets its own spellcasting prerequisite for you.

[Zubrowka74]

Not exactly the same but one of the classic NWN2 build is Jack of Clubs / Black Jack, a bard chassis with several dips, Blackguard being one of them. It's not a full caster but perhaps there's something to play with here.

[Xuldarinar]

Slightly off topic, but has one heard of/considered the notion that for some prestige classes allowing one to enter them at 1st, on the condition that they move towards meeting the prerequisites through progressing through them?


For instance.

Level|Class Levels|Base Attack Bonus|Required Skill Gains|Required Feats
1st|Blackguard 1|+1|Hide 4 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 2 ranks|Power Attack
2nd|Blackguard 2|+2|Hide 5 ranks*|-
3rd|Blackguard 3|+3|-|Cleave or Improved Sunder
4th|Blackguard 4|+4|-|-
5th|Blackguard 5|+5|-|-
6th|Blackguard 6|+6/+1*|-|Improved Sunder or Cleave*
7th|Blackguard 7|+7/+2|-|-
8th|Blackguard 8|+8/+3|-|-
9th|Blackguard 9|+9/+4|-|-
10th|Blackguard 10|+10/+5|-|-

[JaronK]

The closest thing to a spellcasting blackguard is to combine the Paladin of Tyranny and the PrC Paladin, both from UA. Now just go Cleric X/PrC Paladin of Tyranny 3/Cleric PrCs Y

If you prefer, go with Ur Priest for a level and use PrC Paladin of Tyranny with Bone Knight to advance the Ur Priest casting. That could be fun.

JaronK

[WinWin]

Ex Grey Guard 1/ Blackguard 10 is the 'optimal' entry. You get a bonus +2 Will.

An apples to oranges comparison of this character to an 11th Ur Priest or even a single classed Cleric, and the Blackguard will be inferior.

Compared to an 11th level Paladin, which the character would have been before becoming a Blackguard, it is a step up.

[dantiesilva]

Of topic of the caster idea a bit, I have had much fun being a rogue 1/Shadowbane inquisitor 10/Blackguard 9. It gives you everything you love about having 10 levels of fallen paladin, non of the downfalls. To add insult to injury, Hellbred focusing on soul. Have a nightmare for a mount and now you have David Xantos.