[Weapon&Feat] Interlocking Shields

[Callos_DeTerran]

This is a question that came into my head one day while considering a build. "Isn't it kind of silly that shield bonuses don't stack? If your wearing two shields then you are still harder to hit then if you had one." And its true. I know the game reason why shield bonuses don't stack. People would be buying +1 animated Tower shields whenever they had spare money and AC's would go through the roof. So it lead me to wonder, how can you do it so that you can use (Like actually have them strapped to you and not just floating around) two shields at once and still gain a greater benefit from it?

I came up with two solutions. A new kind of weapon/armor and a new feat. Both ideas need some work but thats what I came here for, to smooth out the rough edges.

Exotic Weapon:
Interlocking Shields: 1d4 (S) 1d6 (M) Crit. x2 Price:??? Weight:??? Type: Piercing or Slashing

Interlocking Shields are the newest development in shield technology. This trait can be applied to small or large Spiked shields and small or large razored shields (hence the diffrent types). By cutting grooves into the outer rims of the shield, one is able to piece them together into a larger, more effective, shield. Doing so is a free action that cannot be done after a full attack action. Once the shields are interlocked you may stack the shield bonuses of the two shields and add them to your AC. Enhancement bonuses to the shields are not added to this number. Interlocking shields always come in pairs and some odd combinations have a larger shield and smaller one together rather then two of the same size.


And the Feat!

Shield Fighter:
Preq: 15 Strength, Shield Specialization, Two Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Defense
Benefit: A character with this feat may use both of his shields to defend himself as long as he/she holds them in his/her hands. The shield bonus and enhancement bonus for the shield's stack together in order to calculate the total bonus to AC
Special: A fighter may chose this feat as on of their bonus feats.

[fangthane]

Problem: If you allow a fighter to attain an even more prodigious armor class (beyond what mithral full plate, a +3 dex and +5 items grant) you still need threats which are capable of credibly proving lethal to that character. You can go with a blend of touch attacks to mitigate things, but ultimately you're still giving an edge to physical AC versus dodge AC here. Which means that wizards, sorcs, bards, rogues, barbarians and rangers take a hit. Clerics take a minor hit (not that they can't stand to be knocked down a peg) and paladins take a minor bump... But anything which has a prayer of hitting a fighter at AC 10+5+5+13+3+9+9 = 55 AC* is likely to smack even a well-optimised rogue with a buckler (AC 10+5+5+9+6+6 = 41) pretty effectively. In fact, that sort of foe will hit everyone except the shield-specialised fighter on pretty much anything but an ace.

Also, allowing any one feat to effectively represent a potential +9(sub-epic) ac? Not so good. Mithral Tower Shields +5 are rough on the way this feat balances. Even if you'd rule that a tower must be two-handed, it still allows +7 which again is too much for a single feat.

I'd limit the feat to permitting the second shield (primary/secondary designation per the wielder's preference) to contribute its non-magical AC bonus. At that point, it allows a maximum of +4 (or 2) to AC which, while large, doesn't outweigh the inability to attack (other than by bashing which if I recall rightly precludes using a shield for AC bonus)

*not counting the "fight defensively" options.

[Replacement]

Fighters need as much help as they can get and I like the flavor. Nice concept.

[firepup]

heh... this is why there are brilliant energy weapons on the market.

[Kevlimin_Soulaxe]

I'm pretty sure they only ignore armor AC bucko. Not Shield AC, not Natural AC, and not even special enhancements to armor (Elemental resistance, adamantine dr).

Although that last one can, and probably will, be debated.

[Matthew]

Well, not really my sort of thing and I don't agree with the logic, but the prerequisites seem suitably high. If you are going to allow Characters to fully benefit from using a Spiked Shield in either hand, this seems like a viable fix.

Interlocking Shield Questions:

I assume the Armour Check Penalties stack for interlocked Shields?

Are Tower Shields going to be interlockable?

Do two interlocked Heavy Shields = One Tower Shield? (i.e. Can you wield an interlocked Heavy Shield with one hand or an interlocked Light Shield for that matter?)

Shield Fighter Feat Questions:

Are you allowing the Shield Armour Bonuses from the Shields to stack with the Shield Armour Bonus from Two Weapon Defence?

What's the earliest level a Human Fighter can get access to this Feat? Is it Level Four? (I'm not sure what the prerequisites for Shield Specialisation are)

Can a Character use Two Tower Shields with this Feat? (i.e. and make an Unarmed Strike or Bite Attack or whatever)

You know, thinking about it, you should probably build a Prestige Class for this to either replace or supplement it, along the lines of the Tempest.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Interlocking Shield Questions:

I assume the Armour Check Penalties stack for interlocked Shields?

Yes, but forgot to put that in.


Are Tower Shields going to be interlockable?

I think people keep overlooking this but no their not. I specifically said that only small or large (Wooden or steel, doesn't matter) shields are interlockable. No Tower Shields. No Bucklers.


Do two interlocked Heavy Shields = One Tower Shield? (i.e. Can you wield an interlocked Heavy Shield with one hand or an interlocked Light Shield for that matter?)

I'm not sure I get what your trying to say. Like interlocking two Heavy Shields and wielding it in one hand? Wouldn't work. One shield needs to be on each arm to get the benefit. If thats not what you meant, let me know and I'll try to clear that up.


Shield Fighter Feat Questions:

Are you allowing the Shield Armour Bonuses from the Shields to stack with the Shield Armour Bonus from Two Weapon Defence?

That is a very good question. With the add bonus, just from the other shield, I would say no. It doesn't stack. But then it wouldn't make a good preq, would it? I should probaly actually increase the preq for that feat since it could be taken at third level almost. Which answers your next question.


Can a Character use Two Tower Shields with this Feat? (i.e. and make an Unarmed Strike or Bite Attack or whatever)

Hm. Need to clarify that, but no. Again, no two Tower Shields.



You know, thinking about it, you should probably build a Prestige Class for this to either replace or supplement it, along the lines of the Tempest.

I probably should, but I am not skilled at designing prestiege classes. Nor am I at feats or equipment but not as bad as PrC

Seem better?

Shield Fighter :
Preq: 15 Strength, Shield Specialization, Two Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Defense, Agile Shield Fighter, and Shield Ward
Benefit: A character with this feat may use both of his shields to defend himself as long as he/she holds them in his/her hands. The shield bonus and enhancement bonus for the shield's stack together in order to calculate the total bonus to AC. Only Light or Heavy Shields can be used in this fashion and only two shields can be used to determine the bonus. The shield bonus from Two Weapon Defense is added unto the AC as normal. Armor Check Penalties stack as well.
Special: A fighter may chose this feat as on of their bonus feats.

[Hannes]

I think he meant that do two interlocked heavy shields result in the same AC bonus as a tower shield, as in increasing the shield's type

Bucklers-light
Lights-heavy
heavy-tower.

[Matthew]

I think people keep overlooking this but no their not. I specifically said that only small or large (Wooden or steel, doesn't matter) shields are interlockable. No Tower Shields. No Bucklers.


Oops sorry, fair enough.



I'm not sure I get what your trying to say. Like interlocking two Heavy Shields and wielding it in one hand? Wouldn't work. One shield needs to be on each arm to get the benefit. If thats not what you meant, let me know and I'll try to clear that up.


The reason I ask is because of comparative logic issues. If you have interlocking Light Shields what you end up with is:

Interlocking Light Shields (2 x Martial Light Weapons)*
Armour Bonus: 2
Armour Check: -2
Arcane Failure: 10%
Cost: 6 GP+
Weight: 10 lbs+

Interlocking Light and Heavy Shields (1 x Martial Light Weapon, 1 x Martial One Handed Weapon)*
Armour Bonus: 3
Armour Check: -3
Arcane Failure: 20%
Cost: 10 GP+
Weight: 15 lbs+

Interlocking Heavy Shields (2 x Martial One Handed Weapon)*
Armour Bonus: 4
Armour Check: -4
Arcane Failure: 30%
Cost: 14 GP+
Weight: 20 lbs+
*May only be used Two Handed.

Are they now Light, Martial or Two Handed Weapons? As Two Handed Weapons they are interesting, but likely open for abuse, as you are basically providing Characters with Shields that weigh half that of Tower Shields, provide the same AC Bonus, can be given up to +20 worth of Enchantments and which can (only) be used with Shield Bash. This is the best method of use, take Improved Shield Bash and go to town with Power Attack and other Two Handed Feats.
Watch out also for Player's who use these in combination with Spiked Armour for extra Off Hand Attacks or try to Animate one so that they get +6-14 AC with no penalties to AB.


I think he meant that do two interlocked heavy shields result in the same AC bonus as a tower shield, as in increasing the shield's type

Bucklers-light
Lights-heavy
heavy-tower.

Yup, that's what I was getting at. Indeed, I think it might even be a better approach. I think there is a +3 AC Shield out there somewhere.



Seem better?

Shield Fighter :
Preq: 15 Strength, Shield Specialization, Two Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Defense, Agile Shield Fighter, and Shield Ward
Benefit: A character with this feat may use both of his shields to defend himself as long as he/she holds them in his/her hands. The shield bonus and enhancement bonus for the shield's stack together in order to calculate the total bonus to AC. Only Light or Heavy Shields can be used in this fashion and only two shields can be used to determine the bonus. The shield bonus from Two Weapon Defense is added unto the AC as normal. Armor Check Penalties stack as well.
Special: A fighter may chose this feat as on of their bonus feats.


Yep.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Light shields would be light weapons.

Heavy shields would be martial weapons. Did that answer it?

[Matthew]

If I am reading it right. With the Special condition that they may only be used in Two Hands?

What do Light and Heavy Interlocked Shields count as?

I forgot to say before, but Improved Shield Block should probably be a prerequisite for Shield Fighter.

[Callos_DeTerran]

As their respective shields.

Let me explain, an interlocking shield isn't two shields. Its a non-magical property added on to normal shields like spikes.

So using a Light shield and a heavy shield would be the same as having a light and martial weapon. And whats Improved Shield Block? More importantly where is it?

[Matthew]

Shield Fighter

Sorry, Improved Shield Bash, is what I meant. Blocks on the mind. Seems to me that it would be a nice prerequisite for this Feat.

Interlocking Shield

I'm still confused about this.
So, are you saying that you take an ordinary Light or Heavy Shield and apply this Interlocking Trait, which results in Shields that can be divided in half?
Or, are you saying that you take an ordinary Light or Heavy Shield and apply this Interlocking trait, which results in a Shield that can be interlocked with another Shield?
As I understand it, the latter is the case. However, my question is if you were to make a Shield Bash with this interlocked Shield, would you be making two attacks or one attack? To put it more simply, is an interlocked Shield a Double Weapon or a Two Handed Weapon or not treated as a single Weapon?

[Callos_DeTerran]

Shield Fighter

Sorry, Improved Shield Bash, is what I meant. Blocks on the mind. Seems to me that

I thought people just kind of...you know...just pick it naturally since it only helps them if their using two shields in the first place.


Interlocking Shield

I'm still confused about this.
So, are you saying that you take an ordinary Light or Heavy Shield and apply this Interlocking Trait, which results in Shields that can be divided in half?
Or, are you saying that you take an ordinary Light or Heavy Shield and apply this Interlocking trait, which results in a Shield that can be interlocked with another Shield?
As I understand it, the latter is the case. However, my question is if you were to make a Shield Bash with this interlocked Shield, would you be making two attacks or one attack? To put it more simply, is an interlocked Shield a Double Weapon or a Two Handed Weapon or not treated as a single Weapon?

I'm actually liking the idea of the feat more since this item is confusing as heck. Alright. The latter is the case. Two seperate shields, that both have the same trait, that you interlock together for the AC bonus.

I would see more people unlocking the shields for the purpose of charging or two weapon rend and such, then locking them together for the AC bonus. Never thought about bashing with the interlocked shield. Hm. I would say it would be a double weapon. Your using two shields and both are able to make attacks.