Crystal Master... the most powerful psionic prestige class ever?

[visigani]

I mean it's just plain silly.

Every two levels you get to embed a crystal in your body and your psicrystal counts as one. You get a maximum of ten once you hit epic levels.

This means that by level 30 you end up with 10 special abilities, all of which benefit from those other ten abilities.

For example you can pick up aquamarine... stick it in your leg and voila... +1 intelligence, and then you pick up moonstone, which gives you +1 insight bonus to saves and armor class... for every embedded gem. Then we pick up Ruby... which gives us +1 Constitution.

And all of this sounds like crap..

Except the stat bonuses improve by 1 for every +2 gems after the first, and the rest improve for every gem after the first.

You feelin me yet, son?

At level 30 our psion will have a +11 insight bonus to AC and Saves, +6 Intelligence, +6 Constitution... and on down the list it goes.

And you get to pick and choose ten of these.

If I were building a run of the mill psion...

Assuming the character is thirty my picks would look like:

Aquamarine - +6 Int
Ruby - +6 Con
Tiger Eye - +6 Dexterity
Diamond - +44 Power Points
Moonstone - +11 Insight to AC and Saves
Peridot - +11 DR/-
Emerald - Power Resistance 44
Immunity to all poisons.
Immunity to all diseases.
Touchsight out to sixty feet


There's all that and more... the ONLY class that might be able to compete is the Psychic Weapon Master....

[Psyren]

Meditant (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827c) is more powerful imo - bigger bonuses, 3/4 BAB, 9/10 manifesting instead of 8/10, all-day etherealness and massive amounts of bonus PP - but Crystal Master is pretty nice, yeah. I like to combine it with Psiforged to remove the squick factor of jamming gems into your body (i.e. I'm just slotting in upgrades, plus I can stay up all night cutting gems), and the warforged immunities mean certain gems like Blue Zircon and Azurite are unnecessary.

[Czin]

Nothing can ever surpass that one Illithid class or the Beholder Mage.

[Heliomance]

...why on earth are you looking at power level at level 30? By that point the game is well and truly broken and all those bonuses you listed are more or less irrelevant in the face of lolepicspellcasting and lolepicWBL. To get a decent view of how powerful it actually is, you need to look at it through the mid levels. There is no point analysing game balance past level 20 because it doesn't exist.

[Big Fau]

...why on earth are you looking at power level at level 30? By that point the game is well and truly broken and all those bonuses you listed are more or less irrelevant in the face of lolepicspellcasting and lolepicWBL. To get a decent view of how powerful it actually is, you need to look at it through the mid levels. There is no point analysing game balance past level 20 because it doesn't exist.

Yeah, every single bonus the Crystal Master gives is kinda meaningless once Epic Powers and Spells are on the table. +11 to AC and Saves and +6 Con/Int isn't that much, as you can get most of that pre-Epic with a few magic items (hell, one item gives +6 to all ability scores).

But let's break it down.


Aquamarine - +6 Int
Ruby - +6 Con
Tiger Eye - +6 Dexterity
Diamond - +44 Power Points
Moonstone - +11 Insight to AC and Saves
Peridot - +11 DR/-
Emerald - Power Resistance 44
Immunity to all poisons.
Immunity to all diseases.
Touchsight out to sixty feet


+6 bonuses are a bit pricy, but easy to obtain. You're also wrong: The bonuses are capped at +3 (for 5 crystals; it never tells you what happens with more). Epic levels be damned, as there's no rules for progressing it. And you lose these bonuses if you lose your Psionic Focus, which Psions do all the freaking time.
+44pp is nothing compared to the pp you lost from the two MLs you dropped to get into the class (both from Psion levels and bonus points).
The only thing worth it is the +11 to saves. And the +11 is only if your DM allows the Epic progression to grant additional gems (which it likely won't do every other level like the pre-Epic one does, due to precedents set by other PrCs).
Nice, but you've likely got a Psicrystal, Vigor, and Share Pain (which is significantly better for tanking hits). And it's completely irrelevant at Epic-play, where things are one-shotting people who get hit.
PR44 is a significant drawback actually: It applies against spells, which you may need. And, again, Epic Progressions are borked.
Immunity to two completely irrelevant forms of attack (seriously, you've got +11 to saves and are level 30. Disease stopped being relevant 27 levels ago and poison not long after).
The only relevant ability, which can be duplicated (and improved) via Epic Powers.

[Chronos]

What bonus type are these bonuses?

Oh, and also, where is this class from?

[Fax Celestis]

What bonus type are these bonuses?

Oh, and also, where is this class from?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625d

Not sure where OP is saying you can embed 10 from: you can embed up to 5.

Stat mods are untyped, skill and other mods seem to be insight.

[Dusk Eclipse]

OP seemed to be extending it to 20 levels since he is talking about level 30.

[Tulya]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20030221a

Epic Crystal Master is an official progression from the Epic Insights series.

[Fax Celestis]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20030221a

Epic Crystal Master is an official progression from the Epic Insights series.

Even still, stat mod gems don't improve beyond 5 embeds.

[Tulya]

Even still, stat mod gems don't improve beyond 5 embeds.

I wasn't commenting on that, just linking the source material.
However, I do believe the language is descriptive rather than proscriptive. The specific values provided are in parenthetical annotations that do not contradict the general rules text, and limiting words like 'maximum', 'until', and 'up to' are absent entirely.

Edit:
That is, the general rule provided is +1, with an additional +1 per two gems. The parenthetical annotation then merely says, (+2 at 3 embedded gems, and +3 at 5 embedded gems), which describes the results, but does not otherwise use language to indicate that the annotation modifies the rule in any way.

[Psyren]

The stat mod gems themselves have the limit baked in.

[Saidoro]

What's with all the absolute statements in thread titles recently? Seriously, on the first page we've got:
Rating enchantment as weakest school = greatest fallacy?
Crystal Shard - Great Psionic Power... or the Greates Psionic Power?
and now this, it's getting kind of silly.

Back on topic, the class is okay but the loss of two manifester levels with their attendant powers known and especially their maximum power level is a greater price than the gain of a few static bonuses. I might use it in a few highly focused builds which don't care much about higher level powers, but not as a general purpose great class.

[Yuki Akuma]

It loses two manifester levels.

No, it's not anything close to being the most powerful psionic prestige class ever.

[Dusk Eclipse]

So which would be the most powerful Psionic prestige class then? I'm leaning towards Anarchic Initiate because it is the only 1st party (to the best of my knowledge) 10/10 class and it's abilities aren't half bad. Meditant would be a close second I guess.

[Eurus]

Metamind is usually bad, but does allow a few amusing combos. I'd say Slayer, actually.

[Psyren]

Thrallherd is probably the most powerful, but that one's kind of cheating since you're depending on something outside the manifester himself to gain that power.

Internally, I would say AI and Subverted Psion are typically seen as the strongest from a raw power standpoint (no lost ML, universally relevant class features.) I would rank Soul Manifester, Constructor and Meditant at the next highest rung.

[Dusk Eclipse]

You know I've never read Subverted Psion in detail before, it is nasty, would make one hell of a BBEG.

[Heliomance]

So which would be the most powerful Psionic prestige class then? I'm leaning towards Anarchic Initiate because it is the only 1st party (to the best of my knowledge) 10/10 class and it's abilities aren't half bad. Meditant would be a close second I guess.

StP Erudite? Or is that a base class?

[Just to Browse]

It loses two manifester levels.

This. All of this.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Base class, a variant of a variant class.

[Aharon]

If we count Dragon, there's the Mind Mage...

[Big Fau]

So which would be the most powerful Psionic prestige class then? I'm leaning towards Anarchic Initiate because it is the only 1st party (to the best of my knowledge) 10/10 class and it's abilities aren't half bad. Meditant would be a close second I guess.

SubPsion, Anarchic Initiate, forward-porting the Archpsion (assuming you correct the table to have full manifesting instead of that shorthand WotC used), Slayer (due to BAB increase even in spite of ML), and Soul Manifester (since you can enter it without spending levels dipping into Totemist).

[Fax Celestis]

No love for Diamond Dragon?

1pp paralysis cancellation, 3 +1s to a physical score, 8/10 ML, built in self-enchanting claws (and for a melee psychic you can attack with one as a swift action after manifesting), 1PP:1 die breath weapon with no recharge, and un-HD-capped Frightful Presence as the capstone. I would probably hop out around 5th level if I'm not taking it the whole way, but still. 4/5 ML in that case, and everything but the Frightful Presence. Entering as a gish-style Ardent with Deception and Justice mantles is pretty awesome, and using Practiced Manifester basically means no manifesting loss.

[Psyren]

I love Diamond Dragon personally but if you're (a) not gishing and (b) not Int-based there isn't much reason to go into it. Whereas something like Meditant or Soul Manifester is useful no matter which you're doing. The claws are nice I guess. I'd put Diamond Dragon equal with Slayer.

[visigani]

First, your psyicrystal gets to act as an embedded gem.. giving you a total of *six* embedded crystals.

Second Actually the loss of manifester levels isn't so terrible for psions as it is for most casters.

Toss on practiced manifester and it costs you two powers, and around or so fifty power points points, which amounts to two or three castings of high level psionics.

In return you get: +3 Int Untyped), +3 Con (Untyped), +24 Power Points, +16 Insight to AC and Saves, and +6 DR/-.

So you get +1 DC, +Power Points, +1 hp per level, a bonus to fort saves better DR than a barbarian, about as many power points as you had before and you get defensive precognition on you 24/7 at manifester level 16. For free.

And those are just the abilities *I* chose.
Truth is you could drop the class at level 8, walk away with 4 gems and call it good. you'd lose a single level of psionics, but get virtually everything I just listed, except where you see 6 cut it down to 4, and lose one ability.

[Psyren]

No one is denying that it's good, but it's not the best as there are better choices.

[Yuki Akuma]

Three powers. Losing two manifester levels costs you three powers.

Three ninth level powers. Out of the grand total of six you'd normally learn ever.

[Psyren]

To add to Yuki's point, powers known are a big deal because each one is roughly worth a feat.

Though to be perfectly fair, some of your gems fill that gap e.g. the Touchsight and Flight gems.

[Yuki Akuma]

9th level powers aren't just worth a feat. They're worth an epic feat. Each.

[TuggyNE]

What's with all the absolute statements in thread titles recently? Seriously, on the first page we've got:
Rating enchantment as weakest school = greatest fallacy?
Crystal Shard - Great Psionic Power... or the Greates Psionic Power?
and now this, it's getting kind of silly.

I know, I was sure this thread was going to be about a crystal shard adaptation of Pyrokineticist or some such nonsense. :smalltongue:

Which would be soooo OP!

[Psyren]

9th level powers aren't just worth a feat. They're worth an epic feat. Each.

Strictly speaking, yes, but have you seen the psioninc 9ths though? You honestly don't need all that many :smalltongue:

You're usually fine with Reality Revision, Timeless Body and the one you'd have got from your discipline. Or in the case of getting two from your discipline, you can drop TB.

You can also pay to learn them - chances are if you're in a campaign with 9ths, somebody else knows 9ths too and can Chirurge the ones you want into your brain.

[Rubik]

Having constant Touchsight would be nice, but I'd still take it as a power known.

Metapsionics on Touchsight make it even better. I mean, Transdimensional Touchsight? Widened Touchsight? Burrowing Power'd Touchsight? Who wouldn't want those?

[Big Fau]

First, your psyicrystal gets to act as an embedded gem.. giving you a total of *six* embedded crystals.

Second Actually the loss of manifester levels isn't so terrible for psions as it is for most casters.

Toss on practiced manifester and it costs you two powers, and around or so fifty power points points, which amounts to two or three castings of high level psionics.

In return you get: +3 Int Untyped), +3 Con (Untyped), +24 Power Points, +16 Insight to AC and Saves, and +6 DR/-.

So you get +1 DC, +Power Points, +1 hp per level, a bonus to fort saves better DR than a barbarian, about as many power points as you had before and you get defensive precognition on you 24/7 at manifester level 16. For free.

And those are just the abilities *I* chose.
Truth is you could drop the class at level 8, walk away with 4 gems and call it good. you'd lose a single level of psionics, but get virtually everything I just listed, except where you see 6 cut it down to 4, and lose one ability.

1: Still not OP.
2: You're wrong on the save bonus.
3: The DR literally does not matter at 20th level. Hell, it stopped mattering at 5th level.
4: 50pp is twice what you'd get back from the class itself. Then you have to account for lost bonus PP (which Practiced Manifester does not affect).


To add to Yuki's point, powers known are a big deal because each one is roughly worth a feat.

A feat and two levels, since EK doesn't let you learn powers of the highest level you can manifest.