[3.5] non-psionic half-giant??

[animewatcha]

My group mentioned that there was 'official mention' if the psionics were to be taken off the half-giant then it would be LA 0 instead of LA 1. Is this true and where?

[Psyren]

Considering that Goliaths are non-psionic but are LA 1 anyway due to powerful build I don't really see how this can be true.

[Red Fel]

Well, let's compare the two.

Goliaths get (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040711b&page=5):
+4 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con
Monstrous Humanoid type, which includes:
- Darkvision out to 60 feet
- Proficienct with simple weapons
Powerful Build
Mountain Movement (bonus to climbing)
Acclimated (no altitude penalties)
+2 to Sense Motive
All for LA +1.

Half-Giants get (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/halfGiant.htm):
+2 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con (that's 2 Str less than Goliath)
Giant type, which inclides:
- Low-light vision
- Proficient with all simple and martial weapons, as well as any natural weapons
Naturally Psionic (+2 PP)
Fire Acclimated (bonus against fire effects)
Powerful Build
Stomp 1/day
Also for +1 LA.

If we take away the Naturally Psionic and PLA (Stomp), we're left with ability modifiers, low-light vision, Powerful Build, and a bonus against fire.

I would argue that this is less than the Goliath, who receives greater modifiers, plus various skill modifiers. However, I would note that most +0 LAs either have zero-sum ability modifiers or some kind of weakness (Light sensitivity, Iron vulnerability, etc.), whereas this has none.

I could see the case made that it's still a +1 LA race.

[TuggyNE]

Yeah, I think it would probably end up being one of the weakest LA +1s. Unless instead it was one of the strongest LA +0s.

Probably best to just leave it alone. :smalltongue:

[Ortesk]

Make it non psionic, change type to Humanoid, and your fine. Look at lesser planetouched for an example. The giant typing is something most glance over

[Psyren]

Powerful Build, rather than the creature type, is probably the biggest factor making it LA 1.

(Not that I care too much about 3.5 racial power levels anyway.)

[Ortesk]

Powerful Build, rather than the creature type, is probably the biggest factor making it LA 1.

(Not that I care too much about 3.5 racial power levels anyway.)

Because letting a warrior swing another D6 in damage is such a game breaker right? Or tripping is so OP or grapple and bull rush make the game so broken ect. The only real reason to play half giant is to be primordial for stat boosts

[TuggyNE]

Because letting a warrior swing another D6 in damage is such a game breaker right? Or tripping is so OP or grapple and bull rush make the game so broken ect. The only real reason to play half giant is to be primordial for stat boosts

If it was a game breaker it wouldn't be LA +1.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Yeah, I think it would probably end up being one of the weakest LA +1s. Unless instead it was one of the strongest LA +0s.

Probably best to just leave it alone. :smalltongue:Although it's not the weakest, by far (Hobgoblins, I'm looking at you).


Make it non psionic, change type to Humanoid, and your fine. Look at lesser planetouched for an example. The giant typing is something most glance over

I've met plenty of people who won't even consider letting lesser planetouched on the table.

[Rubik]

Although it's not the weakest, by far (Hobgoblins, I'm looking at you).Blue goblins are worse. They basically get +2 Int, -2 Str, -2 Dex, -2 Cha, darkvision, and a couple of power points.

[edit] And before anyone points it out, I know they don't take an explicit penalty to Dex, except for the fact that Small characters gain +2 Dex as a matter of course, so anyone who doesn't get that is effectively taking a -2 penalty from what they should have.

[Psyren]

[edit] And before anyone points it out, I know they don't take an explicit penalty to Dex, except for the fact that Small characters gain +2 Dex as a matter of course, so anyone who doesn't get that is effectively taking a -2 penalty from what they should have.

Gnomes :smallwink:

(I do get your point though - but the fact that the +2 Dex is still part of their stat budget despite the drawback of being small undermines that slightly.)

[Kuulvheysoon]

Blue goblins are worse. They basically get +2 Int, -2 Str, -2 Dex, -2 Cha, darkvision, and a couple of power points.

[edit] And before anyone points it out, I know they don't take an explicit penalty to Dex, except for the fact that Small characters gain +2 Dex as a matter of course, so anyone who doesn't get that is effectively taking a -2 penalty from what they should have.

Damn, I'd forgotten that Blues are LA+1. My groups have ruled them +0 for so long I've begun to just believe that they really are.

[Psyren]

FWIW, they're LA 0 in PF.

[Idhan]

Blue goblins are worse. They basically get +2 Int, -2 Str, -2 Dex, -2 Cha, darkvision, and a couple of power points.

[edit] And before anyone points it out, I know they don't take an explicit penalty to Dex, except for the fact that Small characters gain +2 Dex as a matter of course, so anyone who doesn't get that is effectively taking a -2 penalty from what they should have.

I agree that blues are weaksauce as a LA +1 race, but I think that's double-counting blue penalties. If you think of them in comparison to a "standard" small race with -2 str, +2 dex, then they have +2 int, -2 dex, -2 cha (and they're effectively 10 feet/round faster than usual too). If you think of them in comparison with a typical medium race, they get +2 int, -2 str, -2 cha. Saying they have -2 str and -2 dex is comparing their strength to the medium-character norm and their dexterity to the small-character norm.

[Ortesk]

I stand by the belief that powerful build is not a big deal. If you cant work it out, play a human with Jotunbrund and monkey grip. Hey look same exact thing. Unless you were planning for knock back feat, your just as good. If your looking into primordial giant route, i can give you the same bumps with LA 0 and your be golden. I think a half giant, non psionic and with the humanoid (human) type is good for LA 0

Stat wise your basically a neanderthal, And a neanderthal can grab Jotunbrund and basically be a half giant. Sure its upper LA 0, but weaker than a human

[Thurbane]

Well, let's compare the two.

Goliaths get (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040711b&page=5):
+4 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con
Monstrous Humanoid type, which includes:
- Darkvision out to 60 feet
- Proficienct with simple weapons
Powerful Build
Mountain Movement (bonus to climbing)
Acclimated (no altitude penalties)
+2 to Sense Motive
All for LA +1.

Half-Giants get (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/halfGiant.htm):
+2 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con (that's 2 Str less than Goliath)
Giant type, which inclides:
- Low-light vision
- Proficient with all simple and martial weapons, as well as any natural weapons
Naturally Psionic (+2 PP)
Fire Acclimated (bonus against fire effects)
Powerful Build
Stomp 1/day
Also for +1 LA.

If we take away the Naturally Psionic and PLA (Stomp), we're left with ability modifiers, low-light vision, Powerful Build, and a bonus against fire.

I would argue that this is less than the Goliath, who receives greater modifiers, plus various skill modifiers. However, I would note that most +0 LAs either have zero-sum ability modifiers or some kind of weakness (Light sensitivity, Iron vulnerability, etc.), whereas this has none.

I could see the case made that it's still a +1 LA race.
For further comparison -

Enenko get: (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070205a)
+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Dex, -2 Cha
Giant type, which inclides:
- Low-light vision
- Proficient with all simple and martial weapons, as well as any natural weapons
Powerful Build
+2 racial bonus on saves vs. poison
SLAs (endure elements 1/day, pass without trace 1/day)
Martial weapon proficiency with longbow (redundant given giant type)
All for LA +1.

[Thurbane]

Blue goblins are worse. They basically get +2 Int, -2 Str, -2 Dex, -2 Cha, darkvision, and a couple of power points.

[edit] And before anyone points it out, I know they don't take an explicit penalty to Dex, except for the fact that Small characters gain +2 Dex as a matter of course, so anyone who doesn't get that is effectively taking a -2 penalty from what they should have.
Snow Goblins are pretty bad for LA +1 as well: +2 Dex, -2 Int, -2 Cha. They basically pay LA +1 for having a 20 foot climb speed. :smallconfused:

[Big Fau]

If it was a game breaker it wouldn't be LA +1.

Blues and Hobgoblins have a bone to pick with you.


Snow Goblins are pretty bad for LA +1 as well: +2 Dex, -2 Int, -2 Cha. They basically pay LA +1 for having a 20 foot climb speed.

To be fair, a climb speed can cause some plot disruption at levels 1-3. Not that this justifies it, just saying.

[Psyren]

I stand by the belief that powerful build is not a big deal.

Don't shoot the messenger dude, I'm not the one who made there be no LA 0 Powerful Build races. If you can swing it at your table more power to you.

[Fax Celestis]

Climb speeds are pretty badass.

[Thurbane]

I could be wrong, but I think there at least a couple of LA +0 that have climb speeds?

Blues, Hobgoblins, Snow Goblins...I've said it before and I'll say it again, some of the staff at WotC had a serious hate on for the Goblinoids. They never got the fawning attention that Kobolds did. :smalltongue:

Here we go, Jungle Goblins (UA), Mountain Spririt Folk (UE), Tasloi (SS) and Vanara (OA) all have climb speeds at LA +0.

[Big Fau]

I could be wrong, but I think there at least a couple of LA +0 that have climb speeds?

Blues, Hobgoblins, Snow Goblins...I've said it before and I'll say it again, some of the staff at WotC had a serious hate on for the Goblinoids. They never got the fawning attention that Kobolds did. :smalltongue:

Here we go, Jungle Goblins (UA), Mountain Spririt Folk (OA), Tasloi (SS) and Vanara (OA) all have climb speeds at LA +0.

That, and a serious disregard for internal consistency.

[ArcturusV]

I don't have Mountain Spirit Folk in my copy of OA. Just Bamboo, River, and Sea. Was Mountain something they added in Dragon Magazine or something?

[TuggyNE]

Blues and Hobgoblins have a bone to pick with you.

Sorry, what?

I said, if it was in fact any kind of game breaker, it would not be available at [as low as] LA +1; game breakers are limited to considerably higher LAs in nearly all cases.

The fact that there are LA +1 races without even the modest amount of extra power normal for that LA in no way contradicts that.

[Thurbane]

I don't have Mountain Spirit Folk in my copy of OA. Just Bamboo, River, and Sea. Was Mountain something they added in Dragon Magazine or something?
Hmm, I was going from the race list at Brilliant Gameologists/WotC forums. My mistake, it was Unapproachable East, not Oriental Adventures.

[Mithril Leaf]

There is a +0 LA Half-Giant. It's in Complete Psionic and you may or may not have to take a level of Half-Giant to continue gaining levels past 1. They basically lose powerful build, the +2 strength, and the PLAs.

[Spore]

We made a LA 0 half giant-esque race for our own system.

Basically

Medium Humanoid
+2 STR -2 GE +2 WIS
Cold Resistance 5
"Powerful Build" (they can use weapons up to one size larger)
Free Skill Focus

That's it basically. this is even poor if you compare it to humans. Larger weapon and more STR is quite good for melee characters but face it. They won't be very impressive if compared to casters or psionic classes.

[Yuki Akuma]

I stand by the belief that powerful build is not a big deal. If you cant work it out, play a human with Jotunbrund and monkey grip. Hey look same exact thing.

Are you saying a racial ability that's better than two feats (Monkey Grip inflicts a -2 penalty, Powerful Build does not) is not worth LA +1?

[Big Fau]

There is a +0 LA Half-Giant. It's in Complete Psionic and you may or may not have to take a level of Half-Giant to continue gaining levels past 1. They basically lose powerful build, the +2 strength, and the PLAs.

You have to take the level. You can't multiclass out of a racial class until you've completed the minimum number of levels (template classes are a different story).

[Ortesk]

Are you saying a racial ability that's better than two feats (Monkey Grip inflicts a -2 penalty, Powerful Build does not) is not worth LA +1?

Again, what does this help? This helps melee builds. Because melee who have +2 strength and a bigger weapon (3 damage more, yay!) are so powerful? This is a good race for a melee build, even though water orc is better by far. And changing type from giant stops primordial template addition, which means that guess what? Its only good for a melee build. Shouldnt we be trying to force feed players who wanna be front line good races, instead of saying 3 damage is breaking my game why'll your human druid buddy is mauling everything i find in the MM

[Psyren]

The problem is really that 3.5's threshold for LA 0 is too low. If you take issue with anything do so with that.

The answer to the OP's question is that there is no non-psionic LA 0 Half-Giant in official material.

[Thurbane]

The problem is really that 3.5's threshold for LA 0 is too low. If you take issue with anything do so with that.
Quite right.

One of my pet peeves is the Half-Orc: net -2 to scores (and nothing else to mention apart from Darkvision). The "official" reason given for this is the "Strength is a more valuable score to have a bonus to than others."

And then they roll out:

> Wood Elf (+2 Str, net +0 abilities: weapon proficiencies, save bonuses, skill bonuses, auto detect secret doors)
> Skarn (+2 Str, net +0 abilities: natural weapon, skill bonuses)
> Neanderthal (+2 Str, net +0 abilities: bonus to attack with certain weapons, resistance to environemtnal extremes).

No consistency.

FWIW, in my game Half-orcs get +2 Str, -2 Int or -2 Cha (player's choice), +2 racial bonus to Intimidate, Darkvision, treat orc double axe and orcish shotput as martial weapons.

[Ortesk]

Quite right.

One of my pet peeves is the Half-Orc: net -2 to scores (and nothing else to mention apart from Darkvision). The "official" reason given for this is the "Strength is a more valuable score to have a bonus to than others."

And then they roll out:

> Wood Elf (+2 Str, net +0 abilities: weapon proficiencies, save bonuses, skill bonuses, auto detect secret doors)
> Skarn (+2 Str, net +0 abilities: natural weapon, skill bonuses)
> Neanderthal (+2 Str, net +0 abilities: bonus to attack with certain weapons, resistance to environemtnal extremes).

No consistency.

FWIW, in my game Half-orcs get +2 Str, -2 Int or -2 Cha (player's choice), +2 racial bonus to Intimidate, Darkvision, treat orc double axe and orcish shotput as martial weapons.

And half orc is my favorite child sadly. But a neanderthal gets that beautiful con boost.

[ArcturusV]

Yes, it's quite sad, the Half-Orc. I almost find it funny that since Intimidate is Charisma based, a Barbarian Class Skill (Their only real "social" one), and that Barbarian is a favored class of a Half-Orc, that somehow the 6'6" tall hulking monstrous looking bruiser is less intimidating than say, a halfling Fighter who throws rocks like a little kid.

[Big Fau]

Quite right.

One of my pet peeves is the Half-Orc: net -2 to scores (and nothing else to mention apart from Darkvision). The "official" reason given for this is the "Strength is a more valuable score to have a bonus to than others."

And then they roll out:

> Wood Elf (+2 Str, net +0 abilities: weapon proficiencies, save bonuses, skill bonuses, auto detect secret doors)
> Skarn (+2 Str, net +0 abilities: natural weapon, skill bonuses)
> Neanderthal (+2 Str, net +0 abilities: bonus to attack with certain weapons, resistance to environemtnal extremes).

No consistency.

FWIW, in my game Half-orcs get +2 Str, -2 Int or -2 Cha (player's choice), +2 racial bonus to Intimidate, Darkvision, treat orc double axe and orcish shotput as martial weapons.

To be fair, only the Wood Elf was released at the same time. Skarns were invented towards the end of 3.5's lifespan, when the Devs had a better sense of balance (not much, but it was an improvement).

[Psyren]

Yes, it's quite sad, the Half-Orc. I almost find it funny that since Intimidate is Charisma based, a Barbarian Class Skill (Their only real "social" one), and that Barbarian is a favored class of a Half-Orc, that somehow the 6'6" tall hulking monstrous looking bruiser is less intimidating than say, a halfling Fighter who throws rocks like a little kid.

Actually you kind of undermined your own point there - Halflings take a prettty hefty size penalty to Intimidate vs, most creatures, so that would in fact negate their Charisma advantage vs. the Half-Orc and then some.

[CyberThread]

what about ENEKO?

[Psyren]

what about ENEKO?

They were mentioned on the first page already, and they're LA +1.

[shaikujin]

There is a +0 LA Half-Giant. It's in Complete Psionic and you may or may not have to take a level of Half-Giant to continue gaining levels past 1. They basically lose powerful build, the +2 strength, and the PLAs.

I remember reading that.

It was an alternative to allow a few LA+1 races to be playable at level 1.

Does that level of giant provide a HD? Does it count for max skill ranks and feats?

iirc, the class it takes was in Fighter levels. Can a different class be used?

[Mithril Leaf]

You have to take the level. You can't multiclass out of a racial class until you've completed the minimum number of levels (template classes are a different story).

Counterexample (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a).

[shaikujin]

Does being psionic + having a PP pool + having a PLA cost +1 LA in Savage Species?

If so, maybe those rules can be used to reduce the LA. SS is 3.0 material though.

[Psyren]

Does being psionic + having a PP pool + having a PLA cost +1 LA in Savage Species?

If so, maybe those rules can be used to reduce the LA. SS is 3.0 material though.

Are there even psionics in that book? I'm not sure.

Regardless, those things can't equal 1 LA on their own because other LA 0 races (e.g. Xephs, Maenads, Kalashtar and Elans) have all three of them.

[Skyrender]

One could almost make an argument that a non-psionic half-giant would be easy to make/fake. The racial +2 PP could be equated to be the Wild Talent feat, which could reasonably be switched out for some other feat, while the stomp PLA could be exchanged for a 1st-level SLA (self-only enlarge person, perhaps?). Then switch the favored class to something like fighter or barbarian, and you're good to go.

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: Necromancy isn't even a psionic thing.