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Stormcrow
2007-01-03, 06:27 PM
Im just looking for a firm understanding of;

1. In what situations can a character make a sneak attack?

2. How many sneak attacks can a character make in a single round?

Khantalas
2007-01-03, 06:31 PM
2. As much as his "attacks per round" allows.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-03, 06:32 PM
You can sneak attack whenever your target would be denied his Dex bonus to AC, whether he actually is or not (for example, a flatfooted opponent, or a paralyzed one). You may also sneak attack when you are flanking the target with someone.

You can make as many sneak attacks a round as you have attacks, presuming that the conditions are met from all of them.

Stormcrow
2007-01-03, 06:50 PM
Holy Blank.

So a level 20 rogue with a shortsword can make 4-5 attacks at 10-11D6?

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-03, 06:51 PM
Make that 7 attacks, with the Two-Weapon Fighting tree.

It's really, really not as good as you might think.

Pegasos989
2007-01-03, 06:52 PM
Holy Blank.

So a level 20 rogue with a shortsword can make 4-5 attacks at 10-11D6?

Multiclass to ranger 2 and fighter 2 so you get bab of 16 and get two speed weapons for a lot of more attacks, but yes. If he flanks, every attack gets sneak attack.

Also, if he took crippling strike as rogue ability at 10th level, every attack deals 2 points of str damage.

TWF is most common rogue build.

EDIT: And to make it clear what bears meant: A lot of opponents are immune to sneak attack (undead, constructs, oozes...), it is often hard to get full attack flanking, it is impossible to sneak attack when target has concealment, etc.

Stormcrow
2007-01-03, 07:11 PM
Well thank god for the rest of us.
I feel relitively safe, i play a fighter/sorcerer. I figure if the rogue gets close to me i deserve to die.

The_Snark
2007-01-03, 07:15 PM
It's also rather unlikely that the rogue will be hitting with all of those attacks, particularly with the later iterative attacks.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-03, 07:18 PM
In a gestalt game mixed with fighter/ranger/barbarian, on the other hand...

Jack Mann
2007-01-03, 07:18 PM
Speed weapons don't stack. If you have two speed weapons, you only get an extra attack with one of them.

silentknight
2007-01-03, 07:21 PM
Only one extra attack? Dang. I am going to have to rework an NPC now. Is that in the SRD?

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-03, 07:27 PM
Try out daggers with TWF! Daggers are the often-overlooked most useful weapon in D&D. I mean, just look at their variety of uses. Grappling, throwing, feints, light weapons, extremely cheap/replaceable, low encumberance, variety of awesome catch-phrases, etc. Very useful to a rogue beyond their obvious benefits from sneak attacks.

Zherog
2007-01-03, 07:54 PM
Only one extra attack? Dang. I am going to have to rework an NPC now. Is that in the SRD?

Yep, it is.


Speed: When making a full attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)

Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, haste; Price +3 bonus.

(emphasis mine)

JaronK
2007-01-03, 08:12 PM
Yes, a rogue can theoretically do a lot of damage. Unfortunately, that usually means they have to be flanking (so, on the other side from the fighter, which is usually the most dangerous place to be) with their light armour and d6 HD... it's a very risky thing. Add to that the fact that there's a lot of undead and constructs out there, and the usual result is that rogues can't fight effectively, regardless of how good they are on paper.

JaronK

Zincorium
2007-01-03, 08:34 PM
Also, as big as it seems, 11d6 on average will do 39 points of damage, maybe a lot more, just as often a lot less. If you have any idea how power attack works, you can do that much with a fighter or barbarian long before, and with a 10th lvl warmage throwing a perfectly normal fireball you can get that to everyone in a large radius.

Just keep things in perspective, and there's no reason to freak out. If you can't deal around 100 points of damage a round at lvl 20, then it's not WotC's fault.

Matthew
2007-01-04, 04:43 AM
See the below articles:

All About Sneak Attacks 1 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040217a)
All About Sneak Attacks 2 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040224a)
All About Sneak Attacks 3 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040302a)
All About Sneak Attacks 4 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040309a)

Personally, I'm not a big fan of mutliple Two Weapon Fighting Sneak Attacks, but, as Bears indicates, it's not as great as it sounds. For a comparison with Fighter builds see the breakdown on this link:

Two Weapon Fighting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30734) (Scroll about half way down the first page)

Peregrin_Tooc
2007-01-04, 09:17 AM
Just to mention it: The feat "improved faint" allows you to bluff an oponent instead of moving and then attack him (but only once, dunno if this is influenced by haste) with a sneak attack cause it denies him his dex on AC - which is neat. Better to have 6d6 damage on hitting then 2 attacks with d6 damage each.
Also you shouldn't forget about Sneak attacks with reach weapons

Pegasos989
2007-01-04, 09:39 AM
Yep, it is.



(emphasis mine)


"The wielder of speed weapon may make one extra attack with it."


So if you have greatsword of speed and someone casts haste on you, it won't stack. I would however say that if you have two diffrent weapons of speed, each lets you make extra attack with the weapon the power affects to - neither power affects the other weapon so no issue of stacking. One weapon lets you make extra attack with itself, another weapon lets you make extra attack with itself.

At no point, two or more similar powers affect one weapon (each is affected once by enchantment that has nothing to do with the other enchantment), so it should work.

Thomas
2007-01-04, 09:40 AM
All damsels in distress get Improved Faint as a bonus feat. So does everyone in Buffy: The Vampire Slayer.

Flanking's better, anyway; or invisibility. (Or plain ol' darkness, if you have darkvision, or poor lighting conditions to Hide in. Darkness sucks, since it doesn't actually create darkness, but rather some sort of "dark light"...)

Peregrin_Tooc
2007-01-04, 10:13 AM
All damsels in distress get Improved Faint as a bonus feat. So does everyone in Buffy: The Vampire Slayer.

Flanking's better, anyway; or invisibility. (Or plain ol' darkness, if you have darkvision, or poor lighting conditions to Hide in. Darkness sucks, since it doesn't actually create darkness, but rather some sort of "dark light"...)

Thank you _so_ much, I thought there w a s something wrong about my post ^^ well it's kind of funny, so I won't change the spelling. Damn it, I'm no good at foreign languages and proud of it ^^

Person_Man
2007-01-04, 10:37 AM
I'm with Bears and Matthew on this. SA is fun and all, but the Precision Damage limitations are pretty harsh sometimes. And the damage progression usually isn't as good as a standard full BAB class with Power Attack/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper.

Now, a UA Fighter Variant (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html#fighter) with full BAB, Sneak Attack, the TWF tree, Oversized TWF, and Power Attack/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper would be pretty potent sometimes (though you'd probably have to take flaws, since you don't get bonus feats). Still not nearly as powerful as a full caster, but good nonetheless.


On Speed weapons: I understand that its poorly worded, like everything WotC produces. And Pegasos, you make a good argument based on the wording. And as always, you can do whatever you want as a house rule.

But I think the intent of the language is very clear: Multiple Speed effects do not stack. I have never met a DM who ruled that they do stack. Nor have I even seen a TWF build on the Optimization boards that uses more then one speed weapon, and those people made Pun-Pun.

Zherog
2007-01-04, 07:44 PM
Flanking's better, anyway; or invisibility. (Or plain ol' darkness, if you have darkvision, or poor lighting conditions to Hide in. Darkness sucks, since it doesn't actually create darkness, but rather some sort of "dark light"...)

Invisibility only gives you sneak attack for your first attack in a round. After that, you become visible and therefore no longer have concealment. Greater invisibility would allow you to make a full attack and gain sneak attack on all of them (assuming your target can't see invisible creatures, of course).

If you're referring to the spell darkness you probably can't gain sneak attack from it (except in rare circumstances). You can't see in your own darkness area, so therefore your target has concealment. If your target has concealment, you can't make sneak attacks - even if he's flanked or denied Dex.


"The wielder of speed weapon may make one extra attack with it."


So if you have greatsword of speed and someone casts haste on you, it won't stack. I would however say that if you have two diffrent weapons of speed, each lets you make extra attack with the weapon the power affects to - neither power affects the other weapon so no issue of stacking. One weapon lets you make extra attack with itself, another weapon lets you make extra attack with itself.

At no point, two or more similar powers affect one weapon (each is affected once by enchantment that has nothing to do with the other enchantment), so it should work.

You're incorrect. The words to focus on are "not cumulative with similar effects." It then goes on to give haste as an example of what that means. Also, there's this, which can be found in the 3.0 FAQ:


The description for the speed weapon property says it is not cumulative with the haste spell, but exactly how this applies in the game seems unclear, especially when two weapons of speed are involved. Can you use two speed weapons at the same time? What, exactly, is meant when the rules say haste and speed don’t stack? Does it mean you can use the speed property during the normal portion of your turn, but not during the “extra” partial action you get from haste?

You can use two weapons of speed at a time all right, but you still only get one extra attack, from one weapon or the other, not both. If you are under the effects of a haste spell, you can use the extra attack action from one weapon of speed, or the extra partial action from the haste spell, but not both.

Obviously, the way haste resolves is slightly different in 3.5 than it was in 3.0. But that doesn't change the part of the answer about two weapons of speed at once.

Tor the Fallen
2007-01-06, 12:52 AM
So what if a rogue can't power leap shock trooper attack his opponent? He gets oodles of skills. Fighters are useless outside of combat. Playing a fighter's like playing golf. watch out for traps and water hazards.