Launch Bolt - Chaingun problems

[Bruenin]

I put a ton of metamagic feats on launch bolt to make it more viable.

I have arcane thesis so the cost is reduced by 1 per metamagic feat applied, and easy metamagic Chain spell. I have a reach spell +2, Chain spell +3, Invisibility +0, and then to get it to level 0 I add Sanctum spell +0 even though it almost always lowers my CL by 1. Lowering the cost of Chain spell to +2 then totally it up and subtracting 1 for every metamagic feat makes it so the spell casts at 0 level like original, but I can launch a number of bolts = my CL + 1(original bolt). Later once I get split ray I would have 2+2*CL for bolts launched.

Only problem is how would I get that many bolts out on the field to launch? Is there any item I can craft that can hold the bolts, like a box I attach to my belt or something so I can launch them or anything that would help?

---

By the way, i'm a wizard so I can't really cheese with sneak attacks unless I want to take 2 more feats to get spontaneous launch bolt. Spontaneous launch bolt would make adding the metamagic take a full round and thus it would bypass the volley rules and you could add precision damage to every bolt fired.

[Fax Celestis]

You can't Split Ray launch bolt as it is not an Effect: Ray spell.

[Bruenin]

You can't Split Ray launch bolt as it is not an Effect: Ray spell.

Reach spell says the spell effectively becomes a ray. That wouldn't make it eligible? :smallconfused:

[Segev]

Arguably, you can Split Ray "Reach Launch Bolt," however, precisely because Reach makes it a ray spell.

But you probably won't get what you're hoping for out of Invisible Spell, since the only thing that is invisible is the "effect" of the spell. So the force that launches the bolts would be invisible...which it already is.

I'd just have a couple quivers of ehlonna, or have some Unseen Servants carry them in handfuls.

[Fax Celestis]

Reach spell says the spell effectively becomes a ray. That wouldn't make it eligible? :smallconfused:

I would say no, personally. It acts like a ray ('effectively becomes'), but isn't: if it became a ray, it would say "The spell's effect line becomes Effect: Ray").

tl;dr ask your DM.

[Bruenin]

Arguably, you can Split Ray "Reach Launch Bolt," however, precisely because Reach makes it a ray spell.

But you probably won't get what you're hoping for out of Invisible Spell, since the only thing that is invisible is the "effect" of the spell. So the force that launches the bolts would be invisible...which it already is.

I'd just have a couple quivers of ehlonna, or have some Unseen Servants carry them in handfuls.

The invisible spell metamagic is just there to lower the cost of casting the spell because the way arcane thesis is worded is that "When you apply any metamagic feats other than Heighten Spell to that spell, the enhanced spell uses up a spell slot one level lower than normal" so you take the final product and lower the spell slot level one for each metamagic. Invisible spell is a +0 but still counts. At least by our interpretation.

[Segev]

Ah. I personally don't like exploiting that bit of cheese (as Arcane Thesis is already awesome enough), but if that's how you're running it, that's between you and your table, so I won't quibble.

As to handling that many bolts, just recall that with Reach Spell you only need them in 30 feet of you. Unseen Servants can definitely hold them.

[ArqArturo]

I read that as chainsword problems, and then I thought 'WTF is anyone doing in PF/3.5 doing with a chainsword launcher?' :smalleek:

[Fax Celestis]

WTF is anyone doing in PF/3.5 doing with a chainsword launcher?

Redefining Tier 1.

[Bruenin]

Ah. I personally don't like exploiting that bit of cheese (as Arcane Thesis is already awesome enough), but if that's how you're running it, that's between you and your table, so I won't quibble.

As to handling that many bolts, just recall that with Reach Spell you only need them in 30 feet of you. Unseen Servants can definitely hold them.

Do you know anything about crafting? Could I craft the same effect on an item multiple times? I have craft wondrous items so could I just put 2 or 3 continuous unseen servants on that?

[lunar2]

doesn't your spell component pouch already hold all your bolts for you, since they are material components that cost less than 1gp each? or better yet, eschew materials. you are now launching bolts that didn't even exist before you cast the spell.

[Bruenin]

doesn't your spell component pouch already hold all your bolts for you, since they are material components that cost less than 1gp each? or better yet, eschew materials. you are now launching bolts that didn't even exist before you cast the spell.

The target of the spell is a bolt in your possession. You still have to have the bolts to target. Removing the original material cost would just mean that instead of being consumed after getting launched the original bolt would have a 50% survival chance if you missed.

[Segev]

Do you know anything about crafting? Could I craft the same effect on an item multiple times? I have craft wondrous items so could I just put 2 or 3 continuous unseen servants on that?

I'd suggest a command-activated item of Unseen Servant. It would only have each servant last an hour, but you can create a servant once every six seconds if you so desire. Re-casting it 2-4 times every hour might be annoying, so you probably want a bag to carry it in and only get them arranged when you are going into a dungeon or otherwise expecting a fight.

But a command-activated item of Unseen Servant is 1800 gp.

[Equinox]

I have arcane thesis so the cost is reduced by 1 per metamagic feat applied
A common misconception. Let's see what Arcane Thesis actually says:


When you apply any metamagic feats other than Heighten Spell to that spell, the enhanced spell uses up a spell slot one level lower than normal ... A spell cannot be reduced to below its original level with the use of this feat.
When you apply any feats means "when you apply one or more feats".

So, what you need is to ask yourself two questions, and follow up on the answers:

Q1: Did I apply one of more metamagic feats other than Heighten Spell to this spell?
If no: nothing happens
If yes: the spell uses a slot one level lower than normal, and go to Q2.

Q2: Does that reduce the level of the spell slot below its original level?
If no: carry on
If yes: forget about it, the spell slot level is actually not lowered.

[PraxisVetli]

I read that as chainsword problems, and then I thought 'WTF is anyone doing in PF/3.5 doing with a chainsword launcher?' :smalleek:

Epic Spell "Cloud of Chainswords."
Similiar to, bit not to be confused with, "Cloud of Knives."

[Bruenin]

I'd suggest a command-activated item of Unseen Servant. It would only have each servant last an hour, but you can create a servant once every six seconds if you so desire. Re-casting it 2-4 times every hour might be annoying, so you probably want a bag to carry it in and only get them arranged when you are going into a dungeon or otherwise expecting a fight.

But a command-activated item of Unseen Servant is 1800 gp.

Continous is only 2000gp though. Or did you mean multiple unseen servants command items? I might only need one, if it takes a move action to pull out a case of bolts then he could take two and that'd be 20 bolts. More than enough it most cases.

[ArqArturo]

Epic Spell "Cloud of Chainswords."

Also known as Blood Angels' Death Company.

[Bruenin]

A common misconception. Let's see what Arcane Thesis actually says:


When you apply any feats means "when you apply one or more feats".

So, what you need is to ask yourself two questions, and follow up on the answers:

Q1: Did I apply one of more metamagic feats other than Heighten Spell to this spell?
If no: nothing happens
If yes: the spell uses a slot one level lower than normal, and go to Q2.

Q2: Does that reduce the level of the spell slot below its original level?
If no: carry on
If yes: forget about it, the spell slot level is actually not lowered.

When you apply any metamagic feat the final spell level is reduced by 1 so long as the total isn't lower than the original level.

It doesn't say any number of feats, just any feat. Wouldn't that mean any metamagic feat available or usable aside from Heighten.

restated: Any metamagic feat I apply causes the cost to be reduced by one.
First I applied reach spell, then I applied Chain spell, and then I applied invisible spell. It says when I apply a feat the cost is reduced but it doesn't limit how many times that effect activates, just states that it can't lower the cost to a number lower than the spell originally costed. right?

[Captnq]

First of all,


The enhanced spell uses up a spell slot one level lower than normal. ...
A spell cannot be reduced to below its original level with the use of this feat.


RE-EDIT: I didn't make this clear. You only apply the reduction once. You don't apply it for every feat you add onto the spell. If your DM is ignoring that, well, your campaign, not mine.


Second,
Reach and chain do work together. Check out my Spell Handbook in my sig file for details. It's under the Metamagic Feat section. I explain the whole argument both ways and it's quite clear that Reach and Chain do work together.

However, Chain and Split ray do not.



Any spell that specifies a single target and has a range greater than touch


I'm afraid the moment you add split ray, you no longer can chain.

Third,



doesn't your spell component pouch already hold all your bolts for you, since they are material components that cost less than 1gp each? or better yet, eschew materials. you are now launching bolts that didn't even exist before you cast the spell.


Bolts are not material components. Bolts are targets. You cannot pull bolts out of a spell component pouch or ignore them with eschew materials.


Fourth,



You cast this spell on a crossbow bolt, causing it to fly at a target of your choice as if you had fired it from a light crossbow, using a ranged attack roll.


You are still making an attack roll. You are still limited by your BAB. If you have a BAB of 10 and you chain to hit 21 crossbow bolts as a 20th level wizard, guess what? You still only get two attacks. Since the duration is instantaneous, the remaining 19 bolts go to waste.


Now, if your DM wants to ignore the RAI of Arcane Thesis and wants to ignore the RAW of Launch Bolt...

Fifth,



Only problem is how would I get that many bolts out on the field to launch?


Easy.

Drawing a bolt is a free action. You could have them in your pocket and it wouldn't matter. I suggest just figuring out how many your DM is allowing you to fire at once and stick them together loosely with some tree sap. Put them in a quiver. Strap them around your arm so you can shoot them like Iron Man. Get a Modified Wand Bracer and Pop them out like a machine gun.

[lunar2]

The target of the spell is a bolt in your possession. You still have to have the bolts to target. Removing the original material cost would just mean that instead of being consumed after getting launched the original bolt would have a 50% survival chance if you missed.

the spell component pouch still supplies your bolts, though, since they are the material component to the spell as well as the target, and are cheap enough to be covered by the pouch.

[Equinox]

It doesn't say any number of feats, just any feat.No, it doesn't say that. It says "one or more metamagic feats".

And, how on earth did you manage to misquote Arcane Thesis while actually having it typed up correctly in a different part of the same post?


restated: Any metamagic feat I apply causes the cost to be reduced by one.
No. Applying one or more metamagic feats causes the spell slot level to be reduced by one. This calculation (reducing the spell slot level by one) is done exactly once, when you ask yourself "did I apply one or more metamagic feats"?

[Captnq]

the spell component pouch still supplies your bolts, though, since they are the material component to the spell as well as the target, and are cheap enough to be covered by the pouch.

No. It does not.



except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn’t fit in a pouch.


Do Bolts have a SPECIFIC COST?
Then they are not in the pouch.

What's going on lately?
Is it "Don't read the rules" day at the playground and nobody told me?:smallfurious:

[Segev]

Continous is only 2000gp though. Or did you mean multiple unseen servants command items? I might only need one, if it takes a move action to pull out a case of bolts then he could take two and that'd be 20 bolts. More than enough it most cases.

Ah, you're missing the true cheese, here:

A continuous item creates 1 unseen servant permanently for 1000 gp (it lasts an hour/level, so gets a discount).

A command item creates 1 unseen servant per command given, and each servant lasts 1 hour, for 1800 gp.

Round 1: Command it to create an Unseen Servant
Round 2: Command it to create an Unseen Servant
...
Round N: Command it to create an Unseen Servant.

As long as "N" is fewer rounds than there are in an hour, you have N Unseen Servants off of that one item.

The downside is you have to spend another N rounds re-activating them every hour.

But for 1800 gp, you can have as many Unseen Servants as you could possibly want or need.

[Urpriest]

First of all,


RE-EDIT: I didn't make this clear. You only apply the reduction once. You don't apply it for every feat you add onto the spell. If your DM is ignoring that, well, your campaign, not mine.


Read the errata. It's quite explicit.

[morkendi]

Take leadership. Have all your cohorts be rogues with maxed hide. There job is to carry and place bolts......

[Equinox]

Read the errata. It's quite explicit.Right you are. The errata made Arcane Thesis a lot better :smallmad:

[tyckspoon]

Reach spell says the spell effectively becomes a ray. That wouldn't make it eligible? :smallconfused:

It might make it eligible for Split Ray, but that makes it ineligible for Chain Spell; Rays are not Targeted spells. They are aimed effects.

[Captnq]

Read the errata. It's quite explicit.

Fine.

When I apply a metamagic feat It has a level before and after.
The before is the original level. The after is the new level.

Each time I apply a new metamagic feat, I am redoing the math, so I have a new "original level".



A spell cannot be reduced to below its original level with the use of this feat.


There. Because the term "original level" is not properly defined, Your Invisible Spell and Sanctum spell cheese doesn't work.


The spell still won't let you launch more then your BAB allows.

[Bruenin]

snipped

I was wrong about the split ray but why exactly does the reduction only apply once. I see your logic but I don't understand it. It says when any metamagic feat is applied there is a 1 level reduction.

What makes you believe that it means any number of metamagic feats? And not just any available metamagic feat, or any usable metamagic feat?

Whenever a feat is applied there is a reduction.

If you apply four feats there should be four reductions.

Here's arcane thesis all out for you:
Choose one arcane spell that you can cast to be your thesis spell. When casting that spell, you do so at +2 caster level. When you apply any metamagic feats other than Heighten Spell to that spell, the enhanced spell uses up a spell slot one level lower than normal. Thus if you were to prepare an empowered maximized magic missile (assuming magic missile is the spell you choose for your Arcane Thesis), it would be prepared as a 4th level spell (+1 level for empowered, down from +2; and +2 levels for maximized, down from +3).

The example even shows it effecting two different metamagic feats on the same spell.

Is there a rule section you can reference me to that would explain why I would be limited by BAB in the spell? I must have a fundamental misunderstanding of BAB and that's not good at all...

[Bruenin]

snip

I get the feeling you're upset abou the cheese :smallfrown: I just thought if I added some cheese to my combo it'd have a bit more flavor.

I could be OP if I wanted, I'm a wizard, this just seemed more niche and fun.

Why is BAB a factor? I thought it would count as the spell replicating the effect of my character personally firing the bolt, not that every single one of them counted as an actual attack on my part. I guess the fact I still have to roll attack rolls messes that idea up?

[lunar2]

No. It does not.



Do Bolts have a SPECIFIC COST?
Then they are not in the pouch.

What's going on lately?
Is it "Don't read the rules" day at the playground and nobody told me?:smallfurious:

my bad, i was thinking of eschew materials text, which specifies any material component of 1 GP or less.

[Bruenin]

It might make it eligible for Split Ray, but that makes it ineligible for Chain Spell; Rays are not Targeted spells. They are aimed effects.

In general rays are aimed effects, but there was actually one ray that still had a specific target. Can't find it now that i'm looking for it, and I can't see where the aimed effect thing comes in.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040727a

It still has a target entry so it'd be eligible for chaining wouldn't it? Could you argue that each ray is targeting a single object or that since the spell now has two rays, it's targeting two things so you can't chain a slit spell?

[Devronq]

I put a ton of metamagic feats on launch bolt to make it more viable.

I have arcane thesis so the cost is reduced by 1 per metamagic feat applied, and easy metamagic Chain spell. I have a reach spell +2, Chain spell +3, Invisibility +0, and then to get it to level 0 I add Sanctum spell +0 even though it almost always lowers my CL by 1. Lowering the cost of Chain spell to +2 then totally it up and subtracting 1 for every metamagic feat makes it so the spell casts at 0 level like original, but I can launch a number of bolts = my CL + 1(original bolt). Later once I get split ray I would have 2+2*CL for bolts launched.

Only problem is how would I get that many bolts out on the field to launch? Is there any item I can craft that can hold the bolts, like a box I attach to my belt or something so I can launch them or anything that would help?

---

By the way, i'm a wizard so I can't really cheese with sneak attacks unless I want to take 2 more feats to get spontaneous launch bolt. Spontaneous launch bolt would make adding the metamagic take a full round and thus it would bypass the volley rules and you could add precision damage to every bolt fired.

Arcane thesis does not reduced it by 1 per feat its only 1 period?

[Bruenin]

Arcane thesis does not reduced it by 1 per feat its only 1 period?

Just had this conversation : P

Apparently there is a discrepancy with a previous iteration? The current one reduces the metamagic cost by 1 whenever you apply a feat, as long as it doesn't go lower than the original level.

[Urpriest]

Just had this conversation : P

Apparently there is a discrepancy with a previous iteration? The current one reduces the metamagic cost by 1 whenever you apply a feat, as long as it doesn't go lower than the original level.

Not quite. Captnq moved the goalposts, and is now arguing (as far as I can see) that "original level" refers to level after previous metamagic feats are applied, so it can never reduce a given metamagic feat's contribution to less than +0. Note that this essentially just nixes Invisible Spell tricks, so this is actually an interesting ruling if you want to make Arcane Thesis do what it's supposed to and still be vaguely balanced. That said, it's a pretty hair-splitting argument and relies on the use of the word original, a word the devs have a long track record of never using properly.

[Bruenin]

Not quite. Captnq moved the goalposts, and is now arguing (as far as I can see) that "original level" refers to level after previous metamagic feats are applied, so it can never reduce a given metamagic feat's contribution to less than +0. Note that this essentially just nixes Invisible Spell tricks, so this is actually an interesting ruling if you want to make Arcane Thesis do what it's supposed to and still be vaguely balanced. That said, it's a pretty hair-splitting argument and relies on the use of the word original, a word the devs have a long track record of never using properly.

That's why I didn't define the word original in my post : P. I knew there was a discussion on what it actually meant earlier in the thread, was just restating the definition for someone new.

*sidenote* Original is based off of the word origin but I can see how you can argue it and I guess ultimately there is nothing you can really prove, so it'd be based on interpretation. The very first definition I get when I look up original is "First, or preceding all others"

[XionUnborn01]

The only question I really have in this whole thread is;
Why does Captnq think you can only launch as many bolts as your BAB allows? Because I understand the fact that yes, you make an attack roll but it doesn't say you MAKE an attack.

causing it to fly at a target of your choice as if you had fired it from a light crossbow, using a ranged attack roll.

To me, that's the same as any other spell that requires an attack roll.
If it said something like "you make an attack with a bolt in your posession that deals damage as though fired from a light crossbow..." I'm just not seeing why you would be limited by your BAB.

[Devronq]

Not quite. Captnq moved the goalposts, and is now arguing (as far as I can see) that "original level" refers to level after previous metamagic feats are applied, so it can never reduce a given metamagic feat's contribution to less than +0. Note that this essentially just nixes Invisible Spell tricks, so this is actually an interesting ruling if you want to make Arcane Thesis do what it's supposed to and still be vaguely balanced. That said, it's a pretty hair-splitting argument and relies on the use of the word original, a word the devs have a long track record of never using properly.


I honestly don't think metamagic reducers are vaguely balanced at all just in general i don't understand this interpretation but i don't want to derail with a discussion about it :P

[ZamielVanWeber]

Also a weird note: by RAW a number of bolts not equal to 20 have no cost, so they are viable to have in a pouch. Thay being said RAI clearly disagrees.

[Curmudgeon]

Also a weird note: by RAW a number of bolts not equal to 20 have no cost...
You appear to have made a common error. They have no listed price, but that's not the same as having no cost.

[TuggyNE]

You appear to have made a common error. They have no listed price, but that's not the same as having no cost.

Huh? What's the difference, to RAW?

Edit: Or perhaps I should say, where is their cost listed?