Does Roy have to die?

[bengator]

It would seem to me that if Elan were somehow to save the party, he would be fulfilling the role Tarquin has set out for him, and thus Tarquin would no longer need to kill Roy. This would allow for a postponement of the climactic battle and keep tarquin and co. in play for later books without it being an end for our heroes.

However, since he has expended favors, etc., he may want to finish him off to ensure Elan's role as leader. Also, it might have gone too far for a truce now that the sides are damaging one another. Curious about other's thoughts . . .

[Kish]

Tarquin will not accept Roy's continued survival without being forced to; when has he ever taken "no" for an answer?

I look forward to seeing how the Order forces him to. Hopefully, it will involve permanent death. (Humiliation is an optional extra but would be a very nice optional extra.)

[AKA_Bait]

I think a possibility is that Roy does die, but that Miron and Laurin consider their part of the favor complete at that point. I.e., they don't destroy Roy's body, allowing Durkon to raise him again once they depart.

[Kaiisaxo]

Alternatively Elan dies shielding Roy.

[AutomatedTeller]

btw - is it wierd that lirian's gate has a direction to it? I mean - each time the trike goes through it, it's facing the allosaurus, no matter which way it's going.

[Muenster Man]

btw - is it wierd that lirian's gate has a direction to it? I mean - each time the trike goes through it, it's facing the allosaurus, no matter which way it's going.

I don't know much about Lirian's Gate but Laurin's Wormhole makes sense, she's the one directing it

[NerdyKris]

and thus Tarquin would no longer need to kill Roy. This would allow for a postponement of the climactic battle and keep tarquin and co. in play for later books without it being an end for our heroes..

Why do you assume the only outcome of a battle that Elan doesn't take the stage in is Tarquin winning? I would find coming to an agreement with Tarquin to be a bit anti-climactic. Far more likely he is going to be defeated in some way in this book. Mostly because the idea of Tarquin continuing to plague the Order as a way of pushing his son forward would be incredibly distracting, and a bit repetitive. We already had Nale pushing his "Attack the Order for no reason" luck twice, not counting his believing them to be after him in the Empire of Blood.

I'd much rather see Tarquin humiliated or otherwise proven wrong than to see him be right about forcing Elan to the forefront.

[AstralFire]

I think Tarquin's been a very interesting villain, but the way Mr. Burlew's advanced this story at this point, I feel it'd be best if the thing was finished and dealt with. Shame, but yeah.

[Porthos]

Roy? No way. He dies here, Tarquin will make sure he's dead for good.

But Elan? That's another subject. While I was initially against the idea (strongly), I recently gamed out a perhaps possible way it could play out.

I wouldn't place much money on the scenario I decribed in the link happening. But I wouldn't flat out say it couldn't happen, either.

[AstralFire]

Roy? No way. He dies here, Tarquin will make sure he's dead for good.

But Elan? That's another subject. While I was initially against the idea (strongly), I recently gamed out a perhaps possible way it could play out.

I wouldn't place much money on the scenario I decribed in the link happening. But I wouldn't flat out say it couldn't happen, either.

I think it's well thought out, but I'd have to move the needle to "couldn't happen." It would feel extremely cheap in the proximity of so much death prior, since Elan's guaranteed happy ending also guarantees that Elan won't be permanently dying here.

[bengator]

All good points. I just wonder if tarquin isnt a good recurring villian to have at the end. I still expect the end to be a hobbitt-esque battle of 5 armies with the whole crew (ifcc, linear guld or remanants thereof, tarq, etc.). Plus I have to believe (actually want to believe) that we will get some interaction between Tarquin and Xykon at some point.

With that mindset, and the mindset that Roy cannot die again because been there done that, the only way out I saw was Elan saving the day to become the hero of the party, at least in Tarquin's eyes, or a charade of such. But I see the question has my own biases built into it.

Btw, love the idea of Elan dying as a surprise and if he did it saving Elan or Roy, I guess his ending could be happy . . . And Elan's death might lead Tarquin to decide killing Roy is irrelevant. Would miss him though . . .

[Porthos]

I think it's well thought out, but I'd have to move the needle to "couldn't happen." It would feel extremely cheap in the proximity of so much death prior, since Elan's guaranteed happy ending also guarantees that Elan won't be permanently dying here.

I think if it's handled right and if they make it clear to Tarquin (who doesn't know about the prophecy, mind) that Elan will get resurrected/raised, but only once he leaves, then it can work.

Plus it uses up that stupid so-called Chekov Gun about Durkon having enough diamond dust for one more resurrection. :smallwink:

[Bulldog Psion]

I agree that Roy won't die here, because Tarquin will annihilate his corpse so that he can't be resurrected.

However, I can't see Elan dying here either.

Given how hard Tarquin is pushing here, in a frenzy to get his way, one of the three principals is going to die. Since Roy's death is pretty much impossible, and Elan's death seems very unlikely to me, that leaves Tarquin as the one destined for "two paces of the vilest earth," as Shakespeare put it.

I can't see how it can happen, but if Tarquin emerges from this sequence with a heartbeat, I'll be surprised.

[NZNinja]

It could play out something like this...

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png Sorry Roy, I actually kind of like you. But you're standing in the way of my son, so you have to die.
:roy: With all due respect, your son's kind of a goofball, and I've pulled him out of more than one jam of his own making.
:elan: Yeah! Plus, Roy already died once. But he got better!
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png Wait... You already died?!
:roy: So?

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png Lauren, get us out of here! (TT wormholes away)

:elan: Of course!
:roy: I'm going to regret asking this, but explain. Now.
:elan: Tarquin thinks we're destined for a big dramatic show-down, and as my mentor, I can't progress until you're permanently out of the picture.
:elan: But as you've already died and been resurrected, it would less effective - dramatically - if you were to die again.
:elan: And given that most of the Linear Guild have recently died, as well as loads of soldiers in the crater, then your death would lack the necessary dramatic impact!
:elan: He finally realized that this story is about you, Roy - it's not about me and him!
:elan: All of this, everything we've done, your whole story, Roy...
:elan: It's just our prequel.

:roy: I'm not sure that I followed all - no, any - of that, and I don't care even a little bit. Does it mean Tarquin isn't going to try to put pointy things in my vital organs any more?
:elan: ...Yes.
:roy: Then I'm good.

[Ramien]

I'd expect Tarquin to say something more along the lines of:
And that's why my son's so behind - his mentors can't even die properly. We'll need to make sure it sticks this time.

[nephilia]

Roy? No way. He dies here, Tarquin will make sure he's dead for good.

But Elan? That's another subject. While I was initially against the idea (strongly), I recently gamed out a perhaps possible way it could play out.

I wouldn't place much money on the scenario I decribed in the link happening. But I wouldn't flat out say it couldn't happen, either.

Tarquin could debate that Laurin could easily disintegrate roy, belkar, haley and V corpses... gust of wind... Durkon cannot ressurrect them anymore the morning after!! :P

[AstralFire]

I'd expect Tarquin to say something more along the lines of:
And that's why my son's so behind - his mentors can't even die properly. We'll need to make sure it sticks this time.

Yeah. Tarquin goes with the flow of narrative convenience sometimes, but it's pretty clear he's got an axe to grind. He'll need to actually be defeated, there's no convincing him on this one.

[AKA_Bait]

It just occurred to me, as a direct result of today's comic, that another alternative to Roy being killed is Tarquin holding him hostage (perhaps after polymorphing him into something cute and harmless).

[AstralFire]

It just occurred to me, as a direct result of today's comic, that another alternative to Roy being killed is Tarquin holding him hostage (perhaps after polymorphing him into something cute and harmless).

Two casters with little long-range ability and significantly worn down on health. I think Tarquin's going to be the main threat here, though Baleful Poly is a possibility.

[NerdyKris]

Two casters with little long-range ability and significantly worn down on health. I think Tarquin's going to be the main threat here, though Baleful Poly is a possibility.

And Laurin's wasted a lot of spells/points (whatever psionics use). That was the purpose of V's suggestion that Roy keep running. To force Laurin to keep casting wormhole to catch up with them.

We also don't know what Miron is. If he's not a sorcerer, it's likely that was his only baleful polymorph spell prepared. He might be easily taken out at this point. They are facing a full team of adventurer's this time. Last time Tarquin held off the Order, V wasn't there. And they've had two encounters with him to realize his method of deflecting attacks. Roy can probably think up a plan to get around it.

For starters, that grabbing arrows out of the air skill won't work when he's shot from behind. And they know not to have Durkon charge him, since he can throw him. This is a D&D based comic. The way Rich keeps showing him grabbing arrows suggests that it's a specific feat, not a general "look how strong he is" thing. In fact, his build seems to suggest avoiding long range attacks and knocking away close range attackers. I don't think he's as powerful as he seems. He's just been lucky at catching them off guard.

[AstralFire]

And Laurin's wasted a lot of spells/points (whatever psionics use). That was the purpose of V's suggestion that Roy keep running. To force Laurin to keep casting wormhole to catch up with them.

We also don't know what Miron is. If he's not a sorcerer, it's likely that was his only baleful polymorph spell prepared. He might be easily taken out at this point. They are facing a full team of adventurer's this time. Last time Tarquin held off the Order, V wasn't there. And they've had two encounters with him to realize his method of deflecting attacks. Roy can probably think up a plan to get around it.

For starters, that grabbing arrows out of the air skill won't work when he's shot from behind. And they know not to have Durkon charge him, since he can throw him. This is a D&D based comic. The way Rich keeps showing him grabbing arrows suggests that it's a specific feat, not a general "look how strong he is" thing. In fact, his build seems to suggest avoiding long range attacks and knocking away close range attackers. I don't think he's as powerful as he seems. He's just been lucky at catching them off guard.

I agree. You just need to have people keeping him busy so he can't go crazy with his axe on one of the weaker members, while the rest of the order puts Laurin and Miron in the AoO meatgrinder.

[F.Harr]

Well, that WOULD be repetative.



Alternatively Elan dies shielding Roy.

Ooh! Then he can talk to Shojo. But what would the narritive point be? They'll just reserect him, unless Roy and Tarquin are going to squable over him like Hector's body.


btw - is it wierd that lirian's gate has a direction to it? I mean - each time the trike goes through it, it's facing the allosaurus, no matter which way it's going.

She's very good at her job.

Oh, and the discussion with Elan pointing out the redundency of killing Roy a second time, GREAT!

[Sir_Leorik]

Roy? No way. He dies here, Tarquin will make sure he's dead for good.

But Elan? That's another subject. While I was initially against the idea (strongly), I recently gamed out a perhaps possible way it could play out.

I wouldn't place much money on the scenario I decribed in the link happening. But I wouldn't flat out say it couldn't happen, either.

Have an interesting twist on Porthos' idea, which ties into Haleo and Julelan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16267063&postcount=58) of all places. It's a bit more way out there than Porthos' idea, but it follows similar beats.

[Silverionmox]

If V has polymorph available, he can return the favor and morph Myron. As we have seen, that almost completely disables a caster. Then Team Tarquin suddenly only has 1,5 persons fighting capacity rather than 3, since Laurin's energy is half gone.

[Porthos]

Tarquin could debate that Laurin could easily disintegrate roy, belkar, haley and V corpses... gust of wind... Durkon cannot ressurrect them anymore the morning after!! :P

:durkon:: If ye permanently destroy me friends I swear tha I'll spend tha rest of me unnatural life wreckin horrible vengeance on ye. And I'll never ever raise Elan. Just te spite ye.

As I said, Test of Wills. Can Tarquin take the chance that Durkon is bluffing? IS Durkon bluffing, for that matter? :smallwink:

[Sir_Leorik]

:durkon:: If ye permanently destroy me friends I swear tha I'll spend tha rest of me unnatural life wreckin horrible vengeance on ye. And I'll never ever raise Elan. Just te spite ye.

As I said, Test of Wills. Can Tarquin take the chance that Durkon is bluffing? IS Durkon bluffing, for that matter? :smallwink:

Durkon's a Dwarf; Dwarves don't bluff about matters like these. I think that if Tarquin keeps pushing this confrontation, Durkon will make him pay.

[Porthos]

Durkon's a Dwarf; Dwarves don't bluff about matters like these. I think that if Tarquin keeps pushing this confrontation, Durkon will make him pay.

And Tarquin, with his love of stories and how they play out, should realize this if the mooted scenario comes to pass. :smallwink:

[nephilia]

:durkon:: If ye permanently destroy me friends I swear tha I'll spend tha rest of me unnatural life wreckin horrible vengeance on ye. And I'll never ever raise Elan. Just te spite ye.

As I said, Test of Wills. Can Tarquin take the chance that Durkon is bluffing? IS Durkon bluffing, for that matter? :smallwink:

But Tarquin will never kill Elan (plus with his resources he could just pay another cleric to do it)! just the others and I think durkons wont neiher since, even if he's a vampire, he still consider OotS's members his friends.
So yes he could swear vengeance but the "never raise Elan" doesn't stand :)

[Porthos]

But Tarquin will never kill Elan! just the others and I think durkons wont neiher since, even if he's a vampire, he still consider OotS's members his friends.
So yes he could swear vengeance but the "never raise Elan" doesn't stand :)

The whole logic train of this supposition is that Elan dies in the battle even though Tarquin doesn't want him to.

How? Hell if I know. It's the hardest part of the train to start. Maybe he does something in the battle that causes him to die accidentally. It's one of the reasons this is a hard needle to thread.

As for Durkon not raising Elan.... Yes, that's why I called it a (possible) bluff. :smallsmile: A lot of it hinging on Tarquin not knowing exactly how this new and improved (?) Durkon thinks and feels.

See, the best part of a bluff is to mix in things that certainly aren't a bluff. Tarquin will know that Durkon isn't bluffing about visiting horrible vengeance on him. But can he take the chance that Durkon is in fact bluffing that he wouldn't raise Elan if Team Tarquin destroyed all of his friends permanently?

What's the Risk/Reward here? How well does he know the 'new' Durkon? Does he take the chance that Durkon is lying about raising Elan when in fact Tarquin can regroup and attack the Order another day?

I don't see this as a flat out Tarquin would call Durkon's bluff here situation. The risk might just be too high for Tarquin.

Not that I think we'll ever find out as I still doubt the situation will unfold that way. But I DO think that if Tarquin is forced into a situation where the only way Elan stays alive is if Team OotS is ALSO alive, he might be forced to accept the situation, while vowing to come back for them.... And their little cat too!

[Psyren]

I would love for Elan to snuff it just so we can check out Arborea. I wouldn't want Roy to die simply because (a) we'll end up right back in boring Celestia (or worse, the boring cloud), (b) as others have said if Roy dies Tarquin is very likely to make it permanent and (c) being the only member of the party to kick the bucket that much definitely puts a huge crimp in Roy's thesis statement that Fighters Don't Suck. It would be like... yeah, they kinda do actually, sorry you had delusions otherwise, thanks for playing.

[F.Harr]

If V has polymorph available, he can return the favor and morph Myron. As we have seen, that almost completely disables a caster. Then Team Tarquin suddenly only has 1,5 persons fighting capacity rather than 3, since Laurin's energy is half gone.

One, actually. Laurin's only invested in this most recent caper as taxi-driver.


I would love for Elan to snuff it just so we can check out Arborea. I wouldn't want Roy to die simply because (a) we'll end up right back in boring Celestia (or worse, the boring cloud), (b) as others have said if Roy dies Tarquin is very likely to make it permanent and (c) being the only member of the party to kick the bucket that much definitely puts a huge crimp in Roy's thesis statement that Fighters Don't Suck. It would be like... yeah, they kinda do actually, sorry you had delusions otherwise, thanks for playing.

I like reason "c".

[Dwy]

Roy does not have to die.

The order MAY have to lose in a way that keeps Roy alive, waiting for execution, lets Durkon regain his spells and Laurin claim her favor. Preferably they lose in such a way that Laurin remains Neutral to them. Miron may live or die, not too important. After this, D and Elan launches his plan and Tarkie is removed from the picture.

Laurin, about to end the order, is challenged by Roy to read his mind to see what's at stake, then grudgingly opens a final wornhole for the order to sort it out.

Bonus points if Elan's plan is aided by a fake bounty handover, Ian, in the hands pf Ganji snd Enor, having allied up to bring the regime down.



*ps. None of this will happen, Rich tends to beat my imagination by miles when resolving his plotlines.

[Kish]

One, actually. Laurin's only invested in this most recent caper as taxi-driver.
You might want to reread the most recent three strips, starting with panel 6 of #924 and paying particular attention to panels 7 and 8 of #925.

[Psyren]

I like reason "c".

Indeed, I'd be pretty pissed if Roy died again since it would render his entire personal quest meaningless.



Laurin, about to end the order, is challenged by Roy to read his mind to see what's at stake, then grudgingly opens a final wornhole for the order to sort it out.

This would honestly be a deus ex. She was standing right next to Tarquin when he confirmed that Elan's quest was of global significance, and furthermore when he confirmed via taunt that time was of the essence for them to succeed. If she cared about any of that at all she wouldn't be helping Tarquin undermine their efforts now.

[Irenaeus]

Well, he does have an uncanny aptitude for landing on his head. That's not a good survival trait.

He needs judo lessons. Or acrobatics or tumbling or something.

[Dwy]

Roy needs to be bitten by a radioactive cat, thus becoming Catman, with 9 lives and the Always lands on his feet-feat + reduced fall damage + Quick reflexes.

[F.Harr]

You might want to reread the most recent three strips, starting with panel 6 of #924 and paying particular attention to panels 7 and 8 of #925.

Laurin has a deal with Tarquin. Wormholes for one favor. That's it.


Well, he does have an uncanny aptitude for landing on his head. That's not a good survival trait.

He needs judo lessons. Or acrobatics or tumbling or something.

But that wouldn't be funny!


Roy needs to be bitten by a radioactive cat, thus becoming Catman, with 9 lives and the Always lands on his feet-feat + reduced fall damage + Quick reflexes.

That could be cool!

[Kish]

Laurin has a deal with Tarquin. Wormholes for one favor. That's it.
Okay, don't. It's not really any skin off my nose if you'd rather go on repeating the same incorrect claim.

[F.Harr]

As far as I can tell, it supports my thesis. Wormholes. Favor.


If you mean Laurin blasting Haley, and I have ZERO idea if you mean that, then that's got nothing to do with the deal.

[Dwy]

I personally read it as if the wormholes would have been given anyway, but that the favor bought some blasting to go with it as well. Just my opinion though.

[Kish]

I personally read it as if the wormholes would have been given anyway, but that the favor bought some blasting to go with it as well. Just my opinion though.
It's not just your opinion; it's what she said. "I'll open up a wormhole, but I don't owe you any favors. Although, if you want to owe me one..."

[F.Harr]

And that was the negotiation. Wormholes for favor.

[The_Final_Stand]

I think what she was saying was: I'll open 1 wormhole, and you won't owe me anything. OR, you can owe me one, and I'll wholeheartedly help you with this mad scheme.

[AstralFire]

I think what she was saying was: I'll open 1 wormhole, and you won't owe me anything. OR, you can owe me one, and I'll wholeheartedly help you with this mad scheme.

Bada-bingo, bada-eieio.

[jere7my]

Laurin has a deal with Tarquin. Wormholes for one favor. That's it.

No. She was saying, "I'll open a wormhole; that's it. I don't owe you any favors, so you can't call one in to make me do anything more. However, if you want to owe me a favor, I'll jump into the battle like Miron."

[Bulldog Psion]

No. She was saying, "I'll open a wormhole; that's it. I don't owe you any favors, so you can't call one in to make me do anything more. However, if you want to owe me a favor, I'll jump into the battle like Miron."

Precisely.

Note the different levels of risk involved. She's willing to provide transport, which is safe, for "free," with no favors involved. As soon as she's in danger for something that doesn't directly benefit her, a favor is required.

[Psyren]

And that was the negotiation. Wormholes for favor.

Wrong. It was "free wormholes, but if you want me to get off my ass and actually try to bring them down too, make it worth my while."

[orrion]

And that was the negotiation. Wormholes for favor.

You mean except for the part where she said she'd do more if Tarquin owed her a favor, which she agreed to?

And then she blasted Haley, who wasn't even aiming at her.

Yeah. You're wrong.

[Kaiisaxo]

Ooh! Then he can talk to Shojo. But what would the narritive point be? They'll just reserect him, unless Roy and Tarquin are going to squable over him like Hector's body.

I know they will just resurrect him, but nothing like dying that way while saying "screw you dad, want a legacy? it'll be on my terms" to assert his point.

[David Argall]

Roy not only does not have to die, he won't. The party will be beat up this fight, but will somehow survive, not from any skill or ability. But Roy has died once already, and our writer does not like to return to used themes.

[Psyren]

He also doesn't like doing the expected though, and very few people are expecting Roy to die again here.

Quick! Everyone expect Roy to die!

[F.Harr]

I think what she was saying was: I'll open 1 wormhole, and you won't owe me anything. OR, you can owe me one, and I'll wholeheartedly help you with this mad scheme.

That' really not how I read that. Huh.

Also, the other guy was pretty snide.

"He also doesn't like doing the expected though, and very few people are expecting Roy to die again here.

"Quick! Everyone expect Roy to die!"

That'll do it!

[Sir_Leorik]

And that was the negotiation. Wormholes for favor.


I think what she was saying was: I'll open 1 wormhole, and you won't owe me anything. OR, you can owe me one, and I'll wholeheartedly help you with this mad scheme.

I read it as "I don't owe you a single favor Tarquin. I'll manifest Wormhole so you two can go chase them if you want... but if you're willing to agree to owe me a favor, I'll come along with you and Miron and actively participate in this endeavor."

Tarquin agreed, so Laurin is completely on board.

EDIT: I also think that Laurin is actively trying to get something from Tarquin, probably involving Laurin's daughter Hannah. Laurin made clear that she didn't want Hannah roped into Tarquin's schemes, so she is probably looking for an ironclad oath from Tarquin, with no loopholes, that Hannah won't get dragged into the "family business".

[Psyren]

I guess you could read it as "1 wormhole for free, more than 1 + attacking for favor" - but Kish is still correct in that case, the assault on Haley was due to the favor.

[snikrept]

Alternatively Elan dies shielding Roy.

... you know, it occurs to me that if Elan gets to die heroically and nobly while saving the life of Roy, his surrogate father figure... as a bard who believes in tropes this means he gets his prophesied happy ending.


Probably not if it happens against Tarquin. But if it happens against Xykon? I've been assuming this whole time that "happy ending, for you at least" means he survives the comic. Perhaps not.

[Sir_Leorik]

... you know, it occurs to me that if Elan gets to die heroically and nobly while saving the life of Roy, his surrogate father figure... as a bard who believes in tropes this means he gets his prophesied happy ending.


Probably not if it happens against Tarquin. But if it happens against Xykon? I've been assuming this whole time that "happy ending, for you at least" means he survives the comic. Perhaps not.

:smalleek:

That is a terrifying thought. Terrifying because it is just the sort of prophetic twist, and because it would be a happy ending for Elan if he was able to save Roy's life (or Haley's life) at the cost of his own. It wouldn't be a happy ending for Roy or Haley, just for Elan. :smallfrown:

[Psyren]

Dead without Haley though would make him sad. And the world being destroyed would also make him sad. So he might die but I don't see the mission ending or Haley left alone being part of that.

[Forikroder]

It would seem to me that if Elan were somehow to save the party, he would be fulfilling the role Tarquin has set out for him, and thus Tarquin would no longer need to kill Roy. This would allow for a postponement of the climactic battle and keep tarquin and co. in play for later books without it being an end for our heroes.

However, since he has expended favors, etc., he may want to finish him off to ensure Elan's role as leader. Also, it might have gone too far for a truce now that the sides are damaging one another. Curious about other's thoughts . . .

its not just roy, he plans to kill everyone but Haley and Elan, and probably ensure they cant get raised either to prevent him from trying

[orrion]

its not just roy, he plans to kill everyone but Haley and Elan, and probably ensure they cant get raised either to prevent him from trying

And where do you get that from? The only one person we have concrete evidence for Tarquin wanting dead is Roy.. because he sees Roy as the obstacle to Elan being leader.

After all, if he knew anything he'd even want Haley dead, because everyone else is a more likely leader than Elan is.

[Haldir]

Roy doesn't have to die, he needs to accept Tarquin's offer for work, so that when Elan does overthrow his empire, the story will say that Elan convinced Tarquin's former ally to turn against the Empire.

[Lombard]

Personally I'd be very surprised if we don't get to find out what Laurin's favor is, which tends to indicate that both Laurin and Tarquin will survive. If that's the case it comes down to Roy dying, the Order escaping, or the Order defeating Tarquin's group here but Tarquin's group (or at least Laurin and Tarquin) escaping.

The Order escaping seems to be fairly ruled out. Roy dying again... well as it's been pointed out, been there done that.

How would Tarquin & Laurin react I wonder if Miron got taken out pretty quickly? He's already eaten some arrows and (probably) a lightning bolt. Laurin might balk at continuing, and Tarquin probably wouldn't consider it wise to continue the fight alone.

Call me crazy but this would be about the perfect time for Roy to pull off his first successful caster-fizzling attack..

[Prowl]

Tarquin seems to want to kill Elan's mentor - but Roy isn't his mentor. Anyone see an airship?

[Arrowstorm122]

Elan carries out his plan, whatever it is. That's the only thing I can remember that might save them, unless fighting and running will do the trick still.

[Kish]

Tarquin seems to want to kill Elan's mentor - but Roy isn't his mentor. Anyone see an airship?
Tarquin does not want to kill whoever Elan's mentor might happen to be. He wants to prevent Roy from being the Real Hero to whom Elan is a Supporting Character. Informing Tarquin that Elan has another mentor would make him more determined to remove Roy from the story.

[The Pilgrim]

Big news: Roy doesn't needs to die because Tarquin doesn't needs to be kept around.

Tarquin will die before the end of the book, because he has already fulfilled his narrative role. He has already screwed up his own plan of creating a grand narrative about Father vs Son by becoming Roy's antagonist instead of his son's.

Tarquin is no longer "the Villianous Overlord father of an heroic protagonist forced to fight his own kin", but "a side villiain who has stepped into the way of the Main Hero because he wants to put the Hero's sidekick in charge".

[Arrowstorm122]

Tarquin won't die because he'll be a new side in the struggle of the gates, a dictator, a government, a political movement, which is a side we still don't have. The Linear Guild has just been removed from the game too. Rich said in Don't Split the Party that we'd see another of the nine sides in this book, and Tarquin and Co is the only new side that has been introduced.

Also, Elan has a plan with Tarquin, he's too great a character to throw out, the favor, the whole West Continent thing is too rich and well thought out to be thrown away as soon as the Order leaves, etc.

[Hopeless]

What if the favour Laurin calls in is that he allows them to go on with their quest, but informs Roy that if they return to the continent Elan MUST be their team leader.
After all if this is all about Elan facing his father as part of Tarquin's plans then why should Tarquin care if they complete their quest as long as upon their return its Elan who leads them against Tarquin?!

[Kish]

Lack of punctuation makes that sentence hard to respond to.

Why would Laurin's big favor be something that only impacts people she doesn't know or have any reason to care about?
Why would Roy or Elan care what Tarquin "informs" them of? "You're team leader now, Elan. Tarquin said so, and you know I can't disobey him." ...No.

[Psyren]

And where do you get that from? The only one person we have concrete evidence for Tarquin wanting dead is Roy.. because he sees Roy as the obstacle to Elan being leader.

While that's probably true, he did say "kill the ones in the crater," so at the very least he doesn't care whether Belkar and Durkon live (...unlive?) or die.

[ChristianSt]

Tarquin won't die because he'll be a new side in the struggle of the gates, a dictator, a government, a political movement, which is a side we still don't have. The Linear Guild has just been removed from the game too. Rich said in Don't Split the Party that we'd see another of the nine sides in this book, and Tarquin and Co is the only new side that has been introduced.

Also, Elan has a plan with Tarquin, he's too great a character to throw out, the favor, the whole West Continent thing is too rich and well thought out to be thrown away as soon as the Order leaves, etc.

Only because he is a new side in the struggle for the gates, he doesn't need to be that to the very end. I don't think all nine (if i remember correctly even "at least nine", so there might be more) sides will be present during the final confrontation.
Some will certainly bite the dust somewhere along the road.

And speaking of dust: maybe it is Tarquin who finds out that his road ends in a dusty desert? (And I think there are enough people who found it surprising that Miko left the comic without ever appearing again)

I think Tarquin is more or less a speed bump on the way to the final confrontation with Team Evil. Maybe he will survive and appear again, but I don't think this Tarquin/Elan dynamic will lasts until the end of the gate conflict.

[Sir_Leorik]

Tarquin won't die because he'll be a new side in the struggle of the gates, a dictator, a government, a political movement, which is a side we still don't have. The Linear Guild has just been removed from the game too. Rich said in Don't Split the Party that we'd see another of the nine sides in this book, and Tarquin and Co is the only new side that has been introduced.

Also, Elan has a plan with Tarquin, he's too great a character to throw out, the favor, the whole West Continent thing is too rich and well thought out to be thrown away as soon as the Order leaves, etc.


Only because he is a new side in the struggle for the gates, he doesn't need to be that to the very end. I don't think all nine (if i remember correctly even "at least nine", so there might be more) sides will be present during the final confrontation.
Some will certainly bite the dust somewhere along the road.

And speaking of dust: maybe it is Tarquin who finds out that his road ends in a dusty desert? (And I think there are enough people who found it surprising that Miko left the comic without ever appearing again)

I think Tarquin is more or less a speed bump on the way to the final confrontation with Team Evil. Maybe he will survive and appear again, but I don't think this Tarquin/Elan dynamic will lasts until the end of the gate conflict.

Team Tarquin are one of the "9 sides in the comic", but that doesn't make them of equal importance. Team Evil and the IFCC Directors outrank both the Linear Guild and Team Tarquin. In fact Team Evil hired Nale and the Linear Guild to kill the Order. Tarquin considered himself superior to Nale, and to "that Zyklon guy", while the IFCC Directors have been manipulating the Linear Guild and Team Tarquin, and were hoping V would kick Xykon in the pants to get Team Evil moving.

The Linear Guild is currently all but kaput. Sabine is the only original member that we know to be alive and an active member. Thog is missing, Hilgya quit, Leeky and Pompei quit, Z, Nale and all three kobolds are all dead. The entire side, except for Sabine, are dead, missing, or no longer a member of that side.

If Tarquin keeps forcing the current confrontation, he probably won't live to see the gag on the final page of book five.

[The Pilgrim]

Also, Elan has a plan with Tarquin, he's too great a character to throw out, the favor, the whole West Continent thing is too rich and well thought out to be thrown away as soon as the Order leaves, etc.

But we are only two books to the ending, and in those two books we have still to witness:

- The return of Trigak
- Hilgyia's Revenge, probably helped by a ressurected Samantha
- The further adventures of the Shadowdancer and the Gnome Misoginist in the land of Nowhere.
- More Cliffport CPPD Blues
- Julia's teenager adventures in the Wizardy High School
- More about Leeky's enviromental struggle, helped by his cohort Pompey
- The Mechanus coming back and the death of Julio Scoundrèl
- Miko as a Revenant haunting the Order
- The Resistance liberating Azure City
- Bozzok ressurrecting Crystal and the ultimate fate of the Thieve's Gild and Greysky City
- Ganji and Enor doing something cool again
- Nale coming back as a Demon to resolve his love arc with Sabine
- Etc, etc, etc...

Just to show a small list of the many cool things Rich has created in this comic and aren't likely to show up ever again. His hand doesn't hesitates when he has to discard a plot element that has fulfilled it's purpose, and he has shown more than enough creativity to generate new cool stuff as substitute.

Tarquin's role in the main comic is coming to an end. After getting finally rid of Azure Blue, a full book of Tan Yellow has been more than enough.

[F.Harr]

I read it as "I don't owe you a single favor Tarquin. I'll manifest Wormhole so you two can go chase them if you want... but if you're willing to agree to owe me a favor, I'll come along with you and Miron and actively participate in this endeavor."

Tarquin agreed, so Laurin is completely on board.

EDIT: I also think that Laurin is actively trying to get something from Tarquin, probably involving Laurin's daughter Hannah. Laurin made clear that she didn't want Hannah roped into Tarquin's schemes, so she is probably looking for an ironclad oath from Tarquin, with no loopholes, that Hannah won't get dragged into the "family business".

You know, what Laurin almost exactly says is, "I'll do this, but you'll owe me". I don't recall her agreeing to do anything more.

That said, we'll see.


I guess you could read it as "1 wormhole for free, more than 1 + attacking for favor" - but Kish is still correct in that case, the assault on Haley was due to the favor.

No, that was her protecting herself. Haley tried to shoot her.


Big news: Roy doesn't needs to die because Tarquin doesn't needs to be kept around.

Tarquin will die before the end of the book, because he has already fulfilled his narrative role. He has already screwed up his own plan of creating a grand narrative about Father vs Son by becoming Roy's antagonist instead of his son's.

Tarquin is no longer "the Villianous Overlord father of an heroic protagonist forced to fight his own kin", but "a side villiain who has stepped into the way of the Main Hero because he wants to put the Hero's sidekick in charge".

Interesting. I like it.

[orrion]

You know, what Laurin almost exactly says is, "I'll do this, but you'll owe me". I don't recall her agreeing to do anything more.

Don't recall. Look at the comic in question. I'll quote the relevant portions.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0924.html

Panel 6:

Tarquin: Laurin?

Laurin: I'll open a wormhole, but I don't owe you any favors, Tarquin.

Panel 7:

Laurin: Although.. you could owe me one, if this means that much to you. I even have one in mind, so it can be cleared before the end of the day.

Tarquin: ...Agreed.

/////

That dialogue demonstrates that Laurin offered a wormhole for free. She then stated she would do more if Tarquin owed her a favor, and Tarquin agreed.

I don't know how you can possibly interpret it any other way. The dialogue is very clear.

[Metahuman1]

I personally think it would be hilarious if Tarquine died cause Roy critical hit on a charging full power attack, only for Tarquine to have a nat 1 auto fail on his fort save against death form massive damage.

Dead by pure luck in a fight he could effortlessly have avoided.

[orrion]

I personally think it would be hilarious if Tarquine died cause Roy critical hit on a charging full power attack, only for Tarquine to have a nat 1 auto fail on his fort save against death form massive damage.

Dead by pure luck in a fight he could effortlessly have avoided.

... Fort save against death from massive damage? I'm no DnD buff, but that makes zero sense to me.

[Kish]

And yet it is the rule. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#massiveDamage)

[orrion]

And yet it is the rule. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#massiveDamage)

Weird.

Ok, then how likely is it that Roy can hit Tarquin for 50 points of damage in 1 swing?

[Kaiisaxo]

Weird.

Ok, then how likely is it that Roy can hit Tarquin for 50 points of damage in 1 swing?

Very high on a Crit.

[zimmerwald1915]

Weird.

Ok, then how likely is it that Roy can hit Tarquin for 50 points of damage in 1 swing?
Roy does something like 2d6+45 damage on one successful hit when using his greatsword two-handed and Power Attacking as hard as he can:

Attack (without modifiers like charging, flanking, or Elan's bard song) 1d20 base + 7 Strength + 14 BAB - 14 Power Attack + 1 Weapon Focus + 5 Enhancement = 1d20+13
Damage 2d6 base + 10 Strength + 28 Power Attack + 2 Weapon Specialization + 5 Enhancement = 2d6+45

Roy probably won't Power Attack as hard as he can when fighting Tarquin, however. Judging by the wide, heavy swing depicted in the art, he probably did just that in the first panel of this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0851.html); a full Power Attack would have been a good move against Thog, whose AC isn't terribly high and has a bucket of HP Roy would want to deplete as quickly as possible. But as Roy figured out shortly afterwords, Tarquin doesn't fight like Thog, and among the differences is that Tarquin is much more defensive-minded and harder to hit.

What's more, as kaiisaxo says, it is always possible that Roy could crit, though we probably won't be able to tell the difference between the heavy damage caused by a full Power Attack and the heavy damage caused by a crit based solely on the art. He can guarantee 50 damage on a crit by taking only a -3 Power Attack penalty on his attack rolls. What he can't guarantee is the crit itself:

Attack (without modifiers like charging, flanking, or Elan's bard song) 1d20 + 7 Strength + 14 BAB -3 Power Attack + 1 Weapon Focus + 5 Enhancement = 1d20+24
Damage 2d6 base + 10 Strength + 6 Power Attack + 2 Weapon Specialization + 5 Enhancement = 2d6+23
Damage on a Crit (2d6 base + 10 Strength + 6 Power Attack + 2 Weapon Specialization + 5 Enhancement)*2 = 4d6+46

Bottom line, it is possible for Roy to take Tarquin down in one attack by causing massive damage. There is even more than one way to do it. I don't think it terribly likely; either way requires at least one natural 20 on Roy's part and a natural 1 on Tarquin's. But it's not outside the realm of ordinary possibility and there wouldn't be any reason to cry foul, "plot armor", or "deus ex machina" if it does happen.

[Metahuman1]

Which would be the funny part. Tarquine taken out cause of 2 rolls happening in a row in the most unlucky way and at the most unlucky time, even though he could have avoided those rolls being made if he'd been the least bit reasonable.


Tarquine taken out buy the whims of the dice and his own ego.


Edit: Don't forget Elans song, that's like anther +3 or 4. Also, again, he might just do it if he's desperate enough or if V can get a Debuff in play that makes him feel it's at least got a chance.

[Lombard]

Isn't there a feat called Steadfast Determination that would prevent the auto-fail on 1 of the fort save? (And also lets you use CON instead of WIS for will saves?) Seems like the sort of thing most any fighter would want to have...

[BroomGuys]

Big news: Roy doesn't needs to die because Tarquin doesn't needs to be kept around.

Tarquin will die before the end of the book, because he has already fulfilled his narrative role. He has already screwed up his own plan of creating a grand narrative about Father vs Son by becoming Roy's antagonist instead of his son's.

Tarquin is no longer "the Villianous Overlord father of an heroic protagonist forced to fight his own kin", but "a side villiain who has stepped into the way of the Main Hero because he wants to put the Hero's sidekick in charge".

I don't think this is necessarily true, but it's very much possible and exactly what I want to happen. I enjoyed Tarquin's book tome in the limelight, but recently he's gone (in my eyes) from Lovable Hilarious Villain to A Real ****. I'd sure love for someone to whoop his behind.

[David Argall]

Bottom line, it is possible for Roy to take Tarquin down in one attack by causing massive damage. There is even more than one way to do it. I don't think it terribly likely; either way requires at least one natural 20 on Roy's part and a natural 1 on Tarquin's. But it's not outside the realm of ordinary possibility and there wouldn't be any reason to cry foul, "plot armor", or "deus ex machina" if it does happen.
Even tho I just got thru rolling 30 20s in a row [followed by a 19-& yes I was looking for a chance to drag that into the conversation], I would still call such a win not an option.
A technical point is that Roy will probably need to win initiative to have this 400-1 shot, and he is a slight underdog, making the odds more like 825-1. Tarquin uses that big heavy axe to do real massive damage [and no, he did not lose it in the ambush. It merely has not appeared since, and has not had a reason to.] With the initiative and good rolls, Tarquin puts Roy down in the first round.
But the basic reason is that big battles like this just are not short, at least not with the hero winning them. The movie gun vs sword is famous because it is rare.] The Tarquin-Roy fight will be several rounds.

[jere7my]

Tarquin uses that big heavy axe to do real massive damage [and no, he did not lose it in the ambush. It merely has not appeared since, and has not had a reason to.]

Do you have evidence for that assertion? Last time we saw the axe (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0862.html), Tarquin was hurling it away from himself at high velocity just before grabbing Nale and teleporting away. It seems to me it could go either way. Moreover, the axe is visible (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0858.html) on Tarquin's back when he's not using it, like Durkon's shield, and 'tain't there when he's retreating with Nale.

[Muenster Man]

Even better evidence is here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0863.html) when Tarquin was wishing he had a spare

[glissle]

Dead without Haley though would make him sad. And the world being destroyed would also make him sad. So he might die but I don't see the mission ending or Haley left alone being part of that.
If Elan gets to see more of Haley & Ian interacting, he might become emotionally invested in their relationship improving, especially now that he sees that his own family is a lost cause.

Or that and
Ian and Elan's Mom meet at his funeral?
Honestly, though, I hope we're not expected to care about Ian or want to see anyone getting closer to him, and these ideas make me shudder.

I expect Elan and Haley to be together at the "ending" of "the story" (whatever that means, precisely).

[F.Harr]

Don't recall. Look at the comic in question. I'll quote the relevant portions.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0924.html

Panel 6:

Tarquin: Laurin?

Laurin: I'll open a wormhole, but I don't owe you any favors, Tarquin.

Panel 7:

Laurin: Although.. you could owe me one, if this means that much to you. I even have one in mind, so it can be cleared before the end of the day.

Tarquin: ...Agreed.

/////

That dialogue demonstrates that Laurin offered a wormhole for free. She then stated she would do more if Tarquin owed her a favor, and Tarquin agreed.

I don't know how you can possibly interpret it any other way. The dialogue is very clear.

Quoting is good!

But how can I interpret it any other way? Because she never ACTAUALLY says "I'll do MORE than open a wormhole for you" or words to that effect. I wouldn't sign that contract unless she said flat-out that she was willing to get more involved. Then again, I'm not as invested in Elan's Hero's Journey as Tarquin is. Tarquin is HEAVILY invested in Elan's character development and Laurin took advantage of that.

[orrion]

Quoting is good!

But how can I interpret it any other way? Because she never ACTAUALLY says "I'll do MORE than open a wormhole for you" or words to that effect. I wouldn't sign that contract unless she said flat-out that she was willing to get more involved. Then again, I'm not as invested in Elan's Hero's Journey as Tarquin is. Tarquin is HEAVILY invested in Elan's character development and Laurin took advantage of that.

She said words exactly to that effect. That is what the favor meant. There's no other possible reason for her to be offering the favor owed because she already offered the wormhole for free.

Her actions show her to be more involved already anyway, since she cast that spell at Haley.

Also, Tarquin didn't "sign" anything. Their contract was verbal, remember?

Maybe Laurin did take advantage.. but you know what? Unless Laurin fulfills her end of the bargain, Tarquin doesn't have to do jack for her. Since she already offered wormholes for free, what possible other thing could she be promising to do for that favor? Oh.. right.. she could promise to actively participate in the fight. Which is exactly what she did and exactly what is happening.


You need to consider the context more, too. The reason it wasn't explicitly spelled out like you say is because it didn't need to be. The exact same scenario had just played out between Tarquin and Miron in that same comic in the panels directly before the conversation I quoted.

Tarquin entices Miron to fight by calling in his favor. Directly after that, Laurin (who also didn't want to fight previously) offers to have Tarquin owe her a favor. Since she doesn't want to fight and the previous favor exchange had to do with participation in the fight, it follows that this favor exchange is the exact same thing.

Sometimes the most obvious explanation really is the correct one.

[Psyren]

Do you have evidence for that assertion? Last time we saw the axe (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0862.html), Tarquin was hurling it away from himself at high velocity just before grabbing Nale and teleporting away. It seems to me it could go either way. Moreover, the axe is visible (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0858.html) on Tarquin's back when he's not using it, like Durkon's shield, and 'tain't there when he's retreating with Nale.

He almost certainly does not have the axe. Otherwise griping about packing a spare (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0863.html) would make no sense.

The whip however we can expect to show up soon. This is good news for the order since without his axe, Tarquin will have a harder time vs. Roy, and with the whip he won't be able to kill anyone.

[F.Harr]

She said words exactly to that effect. That is what the favor meant. There's no other possible reason for her to be offering the favor owed because she already offered the wormhole for free.

Sure there is. Tarquin's desperate for help.


Her actions show her to be more involved already anyway, since she cast that spell at Haley.

Self-protection. Haley's trying to kill her.


Also, Tarquin didn't "sign" anything. Their contract was verbal, remember?

It's a turn of phrase. Don't get hung up on it.


Maybe Laurin did take advantage.. but you know what? Unless Laurin fulfills her end of the bargain, Tarquin doesn't have to do jack for her.

All I heard her agree to was to open a wormhole.


The reason it wasn't explicitly spelled out like you say is because it didn't need to be.

Of course it has to be. They're both evil and hence untrustworthy.

O.K., now can we each agree that we understand where the other is coming from? I understand it one way. You understand it another. We'll see how it plays out later in the story. Let's not turn this into a Federal case. O.K.?

[Havokca]

Of course it has to be. They're both evil and hence untrustworthy.


The implication that he wants both her and Miron to bring their A-game towards "securing his legacy" isn't something that anyone could miss (be it IC or OOC).

So the only question is whether or not she would choose to be obtuse in that way.

We've seen evidence that they play well as a team, that they don't like loose cannons, and that they're all supportive of their respective business objectives. Additionally, we know that they've been adventuring for a decade or two, and that they're involved in a lot of behind-the-scenes-shenanigans (most of which would leave any of them open to being double-crossed by the other side at any time).

So it's possible that there's an impending double-cross, or that she'll attempt to weasel out of bringing everything to bear just because it wasn't fully specified… but it really doesn't fit with what we know of them; Also, if that was her modus operandi, Tarquin would know about it after a decade or two of adventuring with her, and he's smart enough that he'd have pegged her down by making things more specific.

There are only two reasonable conclusions that can be drawn from all of that:

He doesn't have to specify; She'll bring her A-game now that she doesn't have to pop a wormhole every round, or
He got so flustered that he made a tactical error and forgot that he needed to be specific with her in asking his favour.


My money's on the former.

[Dr.Gunsforhands]

Does Roy have to die?

Tarquin is the only one in the comic who seems to think so. (Well, besides Redcloak, I guess, but he's not there right now.)

Tarquin's party members are helping him get rid of Roy because they're friends and he's demonstrated that this is really important to him via an elaborate exchange of favors. Beyond that, they may have their own opinions as to what counts as fulfilling those favors, including what may or may not constitute, "bringing their A-game." Once Roy's benched in some way, however they go about it, they might talk Tarquin out of going any further.

Things that would pacify Tarquin but not kill Roy:
Psionic Dominate, or some other mind-control thing to convince Roy to follow through on the deal he made with Tarquin before leaving the city and stay behind.

Plane Shift, making sure not to tell Durkon where they sent him. (Probably the Elemental Plane of Air, for added coincidence.)

Polymorphing, followed by kidnapping.

Tarquin Dying.

I think the last one on that list seems the most likely, so this whole thread is just sort of an amusing what-if to me.

[Bulldog Psion]

To tell you the truth, I'm hoping to see all three of the present members of Team Tarquin stretched out with X's in their eyes at the end of the encounter, but I doubt that it will come to pass.

[orrion]

Sure there is. Tarquin's desperate for help.

.... Which is why she offered to have Tarquin owe her a favor for helping.




Self-protection. Haley's trying to kill her.

Haley didn't fire any arrows at Laurin.



All I heard her agree to was to open a wormhole.

That's because you're blatantly ignoring things for some reason I can't fathom.



Of course it has to be. They're both evil and hence untrustworthy.

Obviously they trust each other. They've been an adventuring party for decades, remember? If they screwed each other all the time like you seem to think Laurin is trying to do, they wouldn't have gotten this far.

Not to mention that "evil" doesn't mean "untrustworthy."



O.K., now can we each agree that we understand where the other is coming from? I understand it one way. You understand it another. We'll see how it plays out later in the story. Let's not turn this into a Federal case. O.K.?

You could just stop replying, you know.

[Havokca]

Self-protection. Haley's trying to kill her.

Haley didn't fire any arrows at Laurin.


That's actually something that makes me wonder about Laurin's intentions; She's no slouch as a Psion, so why not use something with a bit more oomph when attacking Haley? Is it just because she's Elan's love-interest, or something else?

[F.Harr]

The implication that he wants both her and Miron to bring their A-game towards "securing his legacy" isn't something that anyone could miss (be it IC or OOC).

What I'm missing is where she agreed to to help him with that in any way other than opening wormholes.



We've seen evidence that they play well as a team, that they don't like loose cannons, and that they're all supportive of their respective business objectives.

This isn't business. This is personal. Tarquin and Tarquin alone cares how this comes out.


Additionally, we know that they've been adventuring for a decade or two, and that they're involved in a lot of behind-the-scenes-shenanigans (most of which would leave any of them open to being double-crossed by the other side at any time).

All the more reason to have things spelled out.


So it's possible that there's an impending double-cross, or that she'll attempt to weasel out of bringing everything to bear just because it wasn't fully specified… but it really doesn't fit with what we know of them; Also, if that was her modus operandi, Tarquin would know about it after a decade or two of adventuring with her, and he's smart enough that he'd have pegged her down by making things more specific.

Or, he's that desperate for a wormhole


There are only two reasonable conclusions that can be drawn from all of that:

He doesn't have to specify; She'll bring her A-game now that she doesn't have to pop a wormhole every round, or
He got so flustered that he made a tactical error and forgot that he needed to be specific with her in asking his favour.


My money's on the former.

Or, all he's expecting is wormholes. I'm betting against the former. It wouldn't be the first bet I'd made that didn't pan out. It won't be the last. But it what makes sense to me.




Haley didn't fire any arrows at Laurin.

Then you an I are looking at different pictures. I'm looking at a tight group of three that Haley is firing at with Laurin slap-dab in the middle of it. I don't know what you're looking at.





That's because you're blatantly ignoring things for some reason I can't fathom.

I'm ignoring nothing. You and I are looking at the same data and arriving at different conclusions. It happens. What either of us think doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is what the author thinks. Let's just disagree.



Obviously they trust each other. They've been an adventuring party for decades, remember? If they screwed each other all the time like you seem to think Laurin is trying to do, they wouldn't have gotten this far.

Not to mention that "evil" doesn't mean "untrustworthy."

They trust each other so much, they need a system of protocals and favors to work together. I don't buy it. They don't seem to trust each other enough to work in one-another's interests without some sort of formal framework.

Also, remember when the Fiends' offer? They talked about compleat and total blah-blah-blah. They meant something less what V. assumed it meant. You don't get far with evil folks assuming that they buy into your assumptions.




You could just stop replying, you know.

I could. But so could you. But so far, I'm the only one who's not expressing disbelief at the other's "obtusness". So, until we get THAT sorted out, I'm not liable to shut up.


That's actually something that makes me wonder about Laurin's intentions; She's no slouch as a Psion, so why not use something with a bit more oomph when attacking Haley? Is it just because she's Elan's love-interest, or something else?

Or, all she needs to Haley neutalized. If anyone wants Haley or someone else dead, they'll have to give her more.

[Havokca]

You're stating that:

Laurin is evil, therefore she will twist bargains, specifically Tarquin's
She only attacked Haley because Haley shot at her
The agreement never specified killing, so she won't actually attack


Your logic is lacking in coherency there. If she's evil enough that she'd betray a friend, then she's evil enough that she'd decerebrate Haley for shooting at her. Trying to weasel out of a poorly-framed agreement wouldn't likely factor into her decisions on whether or not to psionically-dismantle someone that's trying to poke holes through her.

[orrion]

What I'm missing is where she agreed to to help him with that in any way other than opening wormholes.

We've told you where that happened 3 or 4 times now. Seriously. She agreed to open wormholes before the favor, therefore the favor has nothing to do with opening wormholes and must be for something else. Since a favor exchange had just happened between Tarquin and Miron with the end result that Miron is fully committed, it follows that the favor exchange between Tarquin and Laurin is for the same thing.

It would be rather stupid of someone to say "Hey I'll do this for free. Oh, and I want you to owe me a favor for it."



This isn't business. This is personal. Tarquin and Tarquin alone cares how this comes out.


That would be why Tarquin was forced to call in favors to get them to help.



All the more reason to have things spelled out.

Things were spelled out.

You seem to be looking for a heck of a lot more convolution than there really is. Cigar is a cigar and all of that.

You know, your reasoning here is weird. Since you just stated Tarquin is invested and only he cares about what happens, don't you think he would be pretty darn sure about the companions he's bringing with him? Since it's personal for Tarquin, why would he go into this being unsure of what Laurin is committed to? It seems to me he'd make sure that Laurin was fully committed because having her fully committed means he is all the more assured of having an outcome in his favor.

Yet you apparently take the view that Tarquin - despite this being personal for him - just entered a fight where one of the two people with him is not fully committed and as such drastically lowers his chances of success.

It doesn't add up.



Or, he's that desperate for a wormhole

Laurin offered the wormhole for free, remember? She specifically said "I'll open a wormhole" before anything about her favor was mentioned.



Then you an I are looking at different pictures. I'm looking at a tight group of three that Haley is firing at with Laurin slap-dab in the middle of it. I don't know what you're looking at.

The part where Haley specifies that she's shooting at Miron and the part where Laurin doesn't take any damage.


They trust each other so much, they need a system of protocals and favors to work together. I don't buy it. They don't seem to trust each other enough to work in one-another's interests without some sort of formal framework.

Ok, so having agreed on said formal framework, why the heck would they immediately start violating it? Doesn't that sort of defeat the purpose of having that framework?


Also, remember when the Fiends' offer? They talked about compleat and total blah-blah-blah. They meant something less what V. assumed it meant. You don't get far with evil folks assuming that they buy into your assumptions.

V did have complete and total control of the splices. And he did have more arcane power than he could ever possibly need.. he just squandered it.



I could. But so could you. But so far, I'm the only one who's not expressing disbelief at the other's "obtusness". So, until we get THAT sorted out, I'm not liable to shut up.

My point was that you shouldn't try to end dialogue by suggesting the other guy stop talking. If you want to end the dialogue, the easiest way is for you to stop talking. I'm perfectly happy continuing. If you aren't, then that's on you.

[Orm-Embar]

I'm reading Team Tarquin's dynamic as a favor for a favor requiring something of roughly equivalent value in return for the original payment.

So, given that the person doing the paying back in the future has a lot of control over how far they're willing to go, it doesn't make sense for the person receiving the favor today to give less than they expect to get back.

In other words, if Laurin gives less than her all today, she can't reasonably expect Tarquin to give her a major effort in return when she calls in her favor.

Tarquin always has the option of refusing if he thinks the favor being demanded is disproportionate to the favor he gave in the first place. It's in Laurin's interest to make sure he won't hesitate when she calls in the loan.

Of course, the value of a favor is still a pretty nebulous concept among the rulers of city-states. Miron and Laurin were surprised when Tarquin called it in - but why? Maybe because Tarquin is blowing the payback on a favor he's hoarded for years on something minor. Miron's casual response, "let's go kill some dudes," doesn't make it seem like this is a huge item to them.

It makes me wonder if what Laurin expects in return also isn't that big a deal to her.

[ChristianSt]

I'm reading Team Tarquin's dynamic as a favor for a favor requiring something of roughly equivalent value in return for the original payment.

So, given that the person doing the paying back in the future has a lot of control over how far they're willing to go, it doesn't make sense for the person receiving the favor today to give less than they expect to get back.

In other words, if Laurin gives less than her all today, she can't reasonably expect Tarquin to give her a major effort in return when she calls in her favor.

Tarquin always has the option of refusing if he thinks the favor being demanded is disproportionate to the favor he gave in the first place. It's in Laurin's interest to make sure he won't hesitate when she calls in the loan.

Of course, the value of a favor is still a pretty nebulous concept among the rulers of city-states. Miron and Laurin were surprised when Tarquin called it in - but why? Maybe because Tarquin is blowing the payback on a favor he's hoarded for years on something minor. Miron's casual response, "let's go kill some dudes," doesn't make it seem like this is a huge item to them.

It makes me wonder if what Laurin expects in return also isn't that big a deal to her.

I think the problem is we don't really now what a "favor" is (in this context and to Evil Father Patrol1 at least). From how I read 924 a favor is pretty valuable (why the heck would they be surprised for calling it, if it would be a minor deal? And why seems Miron to be really glad to clear it off the books?).
So I think Laurin's favor could be quite heavy - despite she having something in mind for it and having it done this day.

I only think that Tarquin has invested too much to let Roy simple go - so now he can/will do everything he can do in order to stop them. [sunk cost fallacy, but he isn't the first villain here to have this problem *caugh* Redcloak *caugh*]

I'm not sure if this will be revealed in the online strips - but I certainly could imagine it will be a more or less central event of a possibly Evil Father Patrol/Linear Guild Prequel - which I think has a really good chance of happening.

11 I have the feeling this term doesn't age well, even though it is the only in-comic term we have so far for them :smalltongue:

[F.Harr]

You're stating that:

Laurin is evil, therefore she will twist bargains, specifically Tarquin's


I'm saying it's on the table.


She only attacked Haley because Haley shot at her

We know exactly two things. First, Haley shot at her. Second, Laurin shot Haley. We don't know what was in Laurin's heart. The firmest conclusion we can reach is that Laurin's a better shot than Haley.



The agreement never specified killing, so she won't actually attack




No. The agreement never specified that Laurin attack anyone so if she does, she's doing it for her own reasons.



Your logic is lacking in coherency there.

Because you're presnting as a sylogism something that isn't. You can't just take random things a person said and claim that's their argument.



If she's evil enough that she'd betray a friend, then she's evil enough that she'd decerebrate Haley for shooting at her. Trying to weasel out of a poorly-framed agreement wouldn't likely factor into her decisions on whether or not to psionically-dismantle someone that's trying to poke holes through her.

I don't see any attempt at betrale, here. She never ACTUALLY AGREED to do anything other than open wormholes, as far as I can tell. I don't have any reason for Tarquin to think that she did. She hasn't betrayed anyone unless you assume that Tarquin views the agreement as something other than "I will open wormholes for you if you'll do me a favor later on today".

O.K.?


We've told you where that happened 3 or 4 times now. Seriously. She agreed to open wormholes before the favor, therefore the favor has nothing to do with opening wormholes and must be for something else. Since a favor exchange had just happened between Tarquin and Miron with the end result that Miron is fully committed, it follows that the favor exchange between Tarquin and Laurin is for the same thing.

It would be rather stupid of someone to say "Hey I'll do this for free. Oh, and I want you to owe me a favor for it."


She never said she'd do it for free. She said she didn't owe him anything. Then she asked for payment. And Miron was asked to attack, not open wormholes.




Things were spelled out.


No, they really weren't.



You seem to be looking for a heck of a lot more convolution than there really is. Cigar is a cigar and all of that.

There is no cigar.


You know, your reasoning here is weird.


No, it's simply different from yours.


Since you just stated Tarquin is invested and only he cares about what happens, don't you think he would be pretty darn sure about the companions he's bringing with him?

No, I think becasue Tarquin is the only person who cares what happens, it's not business but rather personal so "business is business" arguments don't apply. Please don't misrepresent things that I say.



Since it's personal for Tarquin, why would he go into this being unsure of what Laurin is committed to?

What makes you think he's unsure? He asked for something. She named a price. He agreed to it. As far as I can see he knows exactly what he's getting.


Yet you apparently take the view that Tarquin - despite this being personal for him - just entered a fight where one of the two people with him is not fully committed and as such drastically lowers his chances of success.

It doesn't add up.


Why not? You've never made a dicision under duress without enough time to get everything you wanted out of the contract? He needs a wormhole BAD. She's the only one who can offer it to him. It's perfectly reasonable to think he'd say anything to get it.


Laurin offered the wormhole for free, remember? She specifically said "I'll open a wormhole" before anything about her favor was mentioned.

She never said "for free". She agreed to do it and then she stated her price TO do it. That's how I read it.



The part where Haley specifies that she's shooting at Miron and the part where Laurin doesn't take any damage.

Where does Haley say "I'm shooting at Miron here"? And it's not like she's got a laser-scope on that bow she's got. Ten inches off and Laurin's just as skewered.



Ok, so having agreed on said formal framework, why the heck would they immediately start violating it? Doesn't that sort of defeat the purpose of having that framework?

What violation? This isn't business. Tarquin wanted something from Laurin and Laurin stated her price for it. That's what I read.





V did have complete and total control of the splices. And he did have more arcane power than he could ever possibly need.. he just squandered it.


Exactly. SPLICES. It was borrowed power, not V's own.




My point was that you shouldn't try to end dialogue by suggesting the other guy stop talking. If you want to end the dialogue, the easiest way is for you to stop talking. I'm perfectly happy continuing. If you aren't, then that's on you.

I'm not trying to get anyone to stop talking. I was trying to find a way out of a debate loop that allows both of us to hold our positions until such point that we have more data.

Also, I resent being called obtuse and I have no reason to think you're being stupid or wrong. We have two different interpretaitons of the same data. It happens.


I'm reading Team Tarquin's dynamic as a favor for a favor requiring something of roughly equivalent value in return for the original payment.

So, given that the person doing the paying back in the future has a lot of control over how far they're willing to go, it doesn't make sense for the person receiving the favor today to give less than they expect to get back.



That's never how it works. The person demanding the favor in future ALWAYS has the upper hand because of the vagueness of the exchange. You never, ever agree to "do a favor" for someone in the future without knowing what that favor is in advance. Then you're in debt and have no more negotiating power. Sure, you could go to court over it, but I don't see that as an option right now, somehow.

[jere7my]

We know exactly two things. First, Haley shot at her.

We don't know that, and since Haley hit Miron and had arrows caught by Tarquin there's no reason to think Laurin was a target.


She never said she'd do it for free.

Yes she did: "I'll open a wormhole, but I don't owe you any favors, Tarquin." That is 100% non-disputably an offer to open a wormhole for free. The only way your interpretation could make sense is if she then retracts the free offer in the next panel ("Although...you could owe me one"), because she decided to soak Tarquin instead.

That would be like saying, "I'll give you a free cookie. Although...now that I think about it, seeing as you're so very hungry, you could give me a dollar for it instead."

That's a conceivable interpretation, but it's not what's going on here, and it would involve Laurin going back on her word. This is what is happening:

Miron says "Let's go kill some dudes." Tarquin says "Laurin? Do you want to go kill some dudes as well?" Laurin says "I'll get you there, but because I don't owe you any favors you can't make me kill any dudes." She has, at that point, agreed to open a wormhole for Tarquin. Then she decides to offer something more (killing some dudes) in exchange for an unspecified favor.

Again, by the time panel seven rolls around she has already agreed to open a wormhole for Tarquin. In panel seven, she is either retracting that offer (your position) or negotiating a new offer: a favor for dude-killing.

Your position requires a tortured reading of the text. It is a technically possible interpretation, but it is not a conclusion that 99% of readers would draw.


She never said "for free". She agreed to do it and then she stated her price TO do it. That's how I read it.

You don't use the word "although" to start a price quote. "Here's a jar of mayonnaise. Although, that'll be three dollars." That makes no sense. Laurin was clearly reconsidering something in panel seven—that's what "although" means.

[orrion]

She never said she'd do it for free. She said she didn't owe him anything. Then she asked for payment. And Miron was asked to attack, not open wormholes.


She said "I'll open a wormhole, but I don't owe you any favors."

Why wouldn't she have just said "I don't owe you any favors."? The outcome, under your interpretation, would have led to the exact same thing. Also, since you're so intent on "things being spelled out" that would have been the much better thing to do because then she could have proceeded to the next panel and said "However, if you want to owe me a favor, I'll open wormholes." That isn't how she said it.

By the way, why would she start calling in favors for wormholes now? She had already opened at least one gigantic one for Tarquin's army. If she was going to get a favor for wormholes, wouldn't that have been the logical place to do it?


No, I think becasue Tarquin is the only person who cares what happens, it's not business but rather personal so "business is business" arguments don't apply. Please don't misrepresent things that I say.

Exactly, it's personal. So he would want his companions to fight to the best of their abilities, wouldn't he? Otherwise his odds of completing his personal venture are significantly reduced.



What makes you think he's unsure? He asked for something. She named a price. He agreed to it. As far as I can see he knows exactly what he's getting.

I'll rephrase: Why would he go into this fight with a powerful Psion friend who is going to do nothing but open portals? Doesn't it make more sense to have said powerful Psion doing as much as possible?



Why not? You've never made a dicision under duress without enough time to get everything you wanted out of the contract? He needs a wormhole BAD. She's the only one who can offer it to him. It's perfectly reasonable to think he'd say anything to get it.

Like I said, she'd already been opening wormholes for him.

We've seen no indication that Tarquin is as idiotic as you think him to be here, even under duress. He had his own son trying to kill him and was as calm and calculating as usual.

Also, speaking is a free action, so what duress?



Where does Haley say "I'm shooting at Miron here"? And it's not like she's got a laser-scope on that bow she's got. Ten inches off and Laurin's just as skewered.

Uh, the part where she shouts at Miron and says "want some arrows" in the panel before she fires the arrows?



That's never how it works. The person demanding the favor in future ALWAYS has the upper hand because of the vagueness of the exchange. You never, ever agree to "do a favor" for someone in the future without knowing what that favor is in advance. Then you're in debt and have no more negotiating power. Sure, you could go to court over it, but I don't see that as an option right now, somehow.

Since Tarquin isn't fulfilling the favor right now, why does it matter if it isn't an option right now? It's an option later.


The fundamental disagreement is the wormholes. You think the favor was for that only, but that doesn't make sense for a few reasons:

1) She'd already been opening wormholes.
2) The favor exchange between Tarquin and Miron was for Miron to fight. Therefore, the favor exchange between Tarquin and Laurin is for Laurin to fight because:
3) This is personal for Tarquin, and it makes no sense whatsoever to have your powerful Psion friend NOT fighting to help advance your personal goal.

[Xelbiuj]

I really don't see how this is a debate. There was basically no ambiguity to it.
Laurin will be fighting for T-man per their favor trade. Jesus pettifogging Christ.

[Orm-Embar]

I think the problem is we don't really now what a "favor" is (in this context and to Evil Father Patrol1 at least). From how I read 924 a favor is pretty valuable (why the heck would they be surprised for calling it, if it would be a minor deal? And why seems Miron to be really glad to clear it off the books?).
So I think Laurin's favor could be quite heavy - despite she having something in mind for it and having it done this day.

Yes, this could very well be right. It could be huge, or not, depending on how the two of them put a value on it. We just don't have enough information yet to figure out how big of a favor Laurin is intending to ask, or how much this is going to entitle Tarquin to ask in return.


That's never how it works. The person demanding the favor in future ALWAYS has the upper hand because of the vagueness of the exchange. You never, ever agree to "do a favor" for someone in the future without knowing what that favor is in advance. Then you're in debt and have no more negotiating power. Sure, you could go to court over it, but I don't see that as an option right now, somehow.

See, here I disagree to some extent - respectfully, by the way - partly because there is no clear enforcement mechanism for either party, and also because I don't read the strip as Laurin's favor being limited to opening wormholes. Which really only matters because we still don't know how much value the two of them assign to what she's doing, and what she should expect to get in return. Maybe I'm wrong, but either way I am eager to see what value they'll put on it - wormholes are something Tarquin can't do for himself, but what can Tarquin do for Laurin that she can't do without his help?

Anyway, you're right, Tarquin can't go to court if Laurin demands too much. However, neither can Laurin go to court if Tarquin doesn't perform what she asks. Tarquin's in debt, but how does Laurin make him pay up? The threats to Tarquin at that point would be relationship issues, like harm to his reputation for fair dealing. He could lose out on possible future favors that might have been exchanged with Laurin and the other team members. Their ongoing business relationship as fellow partners in this whole empire scheme would take a hit. Other partners might hesitate to lend Tarq a favor, or demand security up front. A lot would depend on the other partners' ideas of value in the exchange, if they think Laurin demanded too much and that a refusal by Tarquin might be justified. Also I doubt anyone wants to tick off a high-level psion, but then again Tarquin can be a dangerous guy too if it comes to direct action. So there is an enforcement mechanism, but it's not cut and dried. Both parties have to end up satisfied if they are going to keep doing business together. They each need to walk away thinking it was a fair deal.

I don't think we have enough information yet to be sure just how big this favor is, and what Laurin and Tarquin think it's worth, but there are some obvious limits. It has to be something within his power to perform (not "bring me the sun, the moon and stars") and won't cause him serious harm (not "cut off your right hand" - erm, ring of regeneration, bad example). Then again, it probably won't be anything trivial, either.

[AKA_Bait]

That's never how it works. The person demanding the favor in future ALWAYS has the upper hand because of the vagueness of the exchange. You never, ever agree to "do a favor" for someone in the future without knowing what that favor is in advance. Then you're in debt and have no more negotiating power. Sure, you could go to court over it, but I don't see that as an option right now, somehow.

I don't think that this applies where there is a relationship of trust between the favor asker and the favor giver. Tarquin and Laurin have been working together for decades. At this point, both sides know what the boundaries of acceptable favors are.

[orrion]

Whelp, Laurin locking Roy down like that would seem to indicate she is indeed doing more than wormholes or reflexive fighting for her life.

[137beth]

Whelp, Laurin locking Roy down like that would seem to indicate she is indeed doing more than wormholes or reflexive fighting for her life.

Could this possibly indicate that she is shooting for a larger favor?!?

[multilis]

Top secret favour revealed... do not read if you don't want to know!
Laurin's favour is for Tarquin to get her pregnant. Then she can kill Elan and her child will inherit Tarquin's empire. She plans on getting pregnant again with her other teammate and that way everything will belong to her family after her team all dies.

Further above top secret conspiracy
This is really secret, you are warned!
Laurin and Sabine belong to the Inter Seductress Cooperation Commission and Sabine has offered a favour by telepathic message... once Tarquin gets Laurin pregnant, Laurin and Sabine are going to kiss him to death! Laurin uses a homebrew psion power to seduce her victims.

[Souhiro]

All good points. I just wonder if tarquin isnt a good recurring villian to have at the end. I still expect the end to be a hobbitt-esque battle of 5 armies with the whole crew (ifcc, linear guld or remanants thereof, tarq, etc.). Plus I have to believe (actually want to believe) that we will get some interaction between Tarquin and Xykon at some point.

You know what? I would prefer a "Battle of 5 armies" where 4 armies, -Redcloak gobbos, Xykon zombie-hobbos, Tarquin mooks and an army of Yukyuk family members- has to fight the Order of Stick, who are piloting GIPSY DANGER, and the final reinforcement isn't beorn, but Elan, who has somehow dynomorphed into the Elanosaurus Rex.



Btw, love the idea of Elan dying as a surprise and if he did it saving Elan or Roy, I guess his ending could be happy . . . And Elan's death might lead Tarquin to decide killing Roy is irrelevant. Would miss him though . . . Elan dying? Remember, he's a Bard, and which one is the best skill that a bard should have?

[Mean_Fighting_Guy]

Alternatively Elan dies shielding Roy.

Well, that could qualify as Elan's "happy ending", when he sees how much Roy cares about him (when it's too late). Wouldn't be too far-fetched as a cruel twist, given how Durkon's prophecy turned out.

[F.Harr]

We don't know that, and since Haley hit Miron and had arrows caught by Tarquin there's no reason to think Laurin was a target.[/I]

Except of course that Laurin was part of a thight group of people who Haley was shooting at. I would take that personally.

AS I SAID BEFORE!: Our readings don't matter. It's the Giant's that matters. And he seems to have meant that Laurin agreed to do more than what I read. I maintain for the record that my reading was a reasonable one, just not the one the author had in mind.

And no, I haven't read any of the other arguments because it covers ground that we've covered oh so many times before and we all know where where each other stand and now that we have new data the argument is even less pointful than before. Repeating the same material to me again and again is not going to make me change my mind that my initial reading, while proven wrong by subsiquent events, was unreasonable. It IS possible for two people to look at the same data and have different conclusions without one being an idiot.

Can we stop this now?

[137beth]

Can we stop this now?

Absolutely not.

[F.Harr]

Absolutely not.

FINE!

O.K., since the only result you'll exept is me asying I was an idiot. I was an idiot. I will attempt, in future, if I have an opinion that disagrees with another's opinion in any way to keep my trap shut. I was utterly deluded in thinking that incompatable opinions could exist on a forum. My bad.

O.K.?

[halfeye]

O.K.?
It was (I assume) a joke. Just as it would be a fine joke for me to say "no, it's not okay". It's a chance to be witty, it's nothing personal (I presume), it's just some specific words in response to other specific words, other words wouldn't be funny as a response, and the same words wouldn't be funny in response to most different words.

[The Pilgrim]

Elan dying? Remember, he's a Bard, and which one is the best skill that a bard should have?

"If there is at least another party member alive, the Monster will always eat her first".

[Bulldog Psion]

It was (I assume) a joke. Just as it would be a fine joke for me to say "no, it's not okay". It's a chance to be witty, it's nothing personal (I presume), it's just some specific words in response to other specific words, other words wouldn't be funny as a response, and the same words wouldn't be funny in response to most different words.

True, but it's also a good example of why blue text helps in certain situations. :smallwink:

[Lombard]

I was an idiot.

You're not an idiot, your take wasn't ruled out by the prior strips, just a less-likely possibility. ;)

We both know you got hooked way too hard by that debate though lol. :P

[Domino Quartz]

FINE!

O.K., since the only result you'll exept is me asying I was an idiot. I was an idiot. I will attempt, in future, if I have an opinion that disagrees with another's opinion in any way to keep my trap shut. I was utterly deluded in thinking that incompatable opinions could exist on a forum. My bad.

O.K.?

Nobody said you were an idiot, just that your interpretation of events was illogical.

[F.Harr]

It was (I assume) a joke. Just as it would be a fine joke for me to say "no, it's not okay". It's a chance to be witty, it's nothing personal (I presume), it's just some specific words in response to other specific words, other words wouldn't be funny as a response, and the same words wouldn't be funny in response to most different words.

That doesn't fit the available facts. To wit, the amount of time spent trying to disprove me even though I wasn't saying anyone else was wrong. Hence, there is no room for more than one opinion. Hence, I was an idiot of thinking there was.


You're not an idiot, your take wasn't ruled out by the prior strips, just a less-likely possibility. ;)

We both know you got hooked way too hard by that debate though lol. :P

Oh, yeah. And trying to get out of it by making space for both opinions didn't work. So the only way out was to admit to being an idiot. I was. I'd assumed that more than one opinion could be cool.


Nobody said you were an idiot, just that your interpretation of events was illogical.

Of course it was logical. It assumed no facts not in evidence and the conclusion followed from the premices. It's not MY fault that the then-extant premises were too thin to support only one conclution.

What was illogical was thinking that two opinions could exist until more evidence existed to eliminate one or the other.

It's not the first time I've made that mistake.

[StLordeth]

I only read the first post, but Roy dying is simply not a possibility with me. Maybe the end of the comic he'll be dead, but not by Tarquin. Not here. Not 2/3rds into the story.

"He could be resurrected" Yes, but that'd be horribly lame. And I'm sure they'll Psintegrate the corpse if they do kill him. It wouldn't make sense not to.

On a slightly off-topic notion; I don't think Tarq will die here either. If he does, I will be genuinely surprised. Build up a villain for a whole book as being badass, then off him? I don't see it happening, but it's more and more likely every comic since he ordered his army to attack Roy, Belk and Durk.

[MtlGuy]

Roy already died once, I don't really expect a retread on that front. Given how it 'looks' (despite how one more strip can shift everything), Tarquin is going to reach for his dagger and try to finish Roy off. I'm expecting perhaps that Belkar may take the hit and fulfill the Oracle's prophecy. Given all the ability score damge he suffered from being fed upon by vampires and his own admission that he'd drop in like one hit, this could be the time. I hope not, because Belkar is friggin' comedy gold and I can't wait to hear what innapropriate comment he'll make next.

[orrion]

Of course it was logical. It assumed no facts not in evidence and the conclusion followed from the premices. It's not MY fault that the then-extant premises were too thin to support only one conclution.

What was illogical was thinking that two opinions could exist until more evidence existed to eliminate one or the other.

It's not the first time I've made that mistake.

No, your conclusion was illogical because it didn't follow the facts that were in evidence, at least one of which you agreed with yourself (that the fight was personal for Tarquin).

[Kish]

Of course it was logical.
Judging by certain of your other posts, it appears you want to stop arguing, or at least have other people stop pointing out that you're wrong.

That being the case, it would seem logical for you to stop reasserting your initial claim.

[AstralFire]

Guys, F. Harr lost the argument. Definitively. Stop kicking him when he's down and trying to get up, it's not worth it. Ignore that part of the discussion and move on.

[Bulldog Psion]

If Roy was going to die, the moment on the triceratops was it. Since he survived that, I at least deem it highly unlikely that he's going to be killed now.

[F.Harr]

We've told you where that happened 3 or 4 times now. Seriously. She agreed to open wormholes before the favor, therefore the favor has nothing to do with opening wormholes and must be for something else. Since a favor exchange had just happened between Tarquin and Miron with the end result that Miron is fully committed, it follows that the favor exchange between Tarquin and Laurin is for the same thing.

It would be rather stupid of someone to say "Hey I'll do this for free. Oh, and I want you to owe me a favor for it."



That would be why Tarquin was forced to call in favors to get them to help.



Things were spelled out.

You seem to be looking for a heck of a lot more convolution than there really is. Cigar is a cigar and all of that.

You know, your reasoning here is weird. Since you just stated Tarquin is invested and only he cares about what happens, don't you think he would be pretty darn sure about the companions he's bringing with him? Since it's personal for Tarquin, why would he go into this being unsure of what Laurin is committed to? It seems to me he'd make sure that Laurin was fully committed because having her fully committed means he is all the more assured of having an outcome in his favor.

Yet you apparently take the view that Tarquin - despite this being personal for him - just entered a fight where one of the two people with him is not fully committed and as such drastically lowers his chances of success.

It doesn't add up.



Laurin offered the wormhole for free, remember? She specifically said "I'll open a wormhole" before anything about her favor was mentioned.



The part where Haley specifies that she's shooting at Miron and the part where Laurin doesn't take any damage.



Ok, so having agreed on said formal framework, why the heck would they immediately start violating it? Doesn't that sort of defeat the purpose of having that framework?



V did have complete and total control of the splices. And he did have more arcane power than he could ever possibly need.. he just squandered it.



My point was that you shouldn't try to end dialogue by suggesting the other guy stop talking. If you want to end the dialogue, the easiest way is for you to stop talking. I'm perfectly happy continuing. If you aren't, then that's on you.


I'm reading Team Tarquin's dynamic as a favor for a favor requiring something of roughly equivalent value in return for the original payment.

So, given that the person doing the paying back in the future has a lot of control over how far they're willing to go, it doesn't make sense for the person receiving the favor today to give less than they expect to get back.

In other words, if Laurin gives less than her all today, she can't reasonably expect Tarquin to give her a major effort in return when she calls in her favor.

Tarquin always has the option of refusing if he thinks the favor being demanded is disproportionate to the favor he gave in the first place. It's in Laurin's interest to make sure he won't hesitate when she calls in the loan.

Of course, the value of a favor is still a pretty nebulous concept among the rulers of city-states. Miron and Laurin were surprised when Tarquin called it in - but why? Maybe because Tarquin is blowing the payback on a favor he's hoarded for years on something minor. Miron's casual response, "let's go kill some dudes," doesn't make it seem like this is a huge item to them.

It makes me wonder if what Laurin expects in return also isn't that big a deal to her.


No, your conclusion was illogical because it didn't follow the facts that were in evidence, at least one of which you agreed with yourself (that the fight was personal for Tarquin).


Judging by certain of your other posts, it appears you want to stop arguing, or at least have other people stop pointing out that you're wrong.

That being the case, it would seem logical for you to stop reasserting your initial claim.

Oh, for the love of Mike.

The only thing I'm asserting is that my innitial interpretation was reasonable at the time. And it was. Laurin never said she'd do anything for free and never said she'd do anything but open wormholes. That she apparently meant more than what she said was not something that could have been known at the time.

All she did was assert that she'd do Tarquin a solid. Denied that she owed him anything. And then asserted that he'd owe her, if he wanted.


Guys, F. Harr lost the argument. Definitively. Stop kicking him when he's down and trying to get up, it's not worth it. Ignore that part of the discussion and move on.

But, that would allow two different opinions. That can't exist on this form, as much as I would like them to!

:)

[AstralFire]

I'm trying to help, but you should really drop it and stop discussing it too, Harr. ._.

[orrion]

But, that would allow two different opinions. That can't exist on this form, as much as I would like them to!

:)

Ok, first of all, that big post you have by me up there was before the latest strip, so it doesn't really count as prolonging the argument.

Second of all, you keep harping on the idea that your interpretation was logical/reasonable, but it wasn't because it required Tarquin to act like a buffoon, which he is not. That's all I'm pointing out.

Third - Jesus, stop it. Two opinions can exist just fine.

[jere7my]

The only thing I'm asserting is that my innitial interpretation was reasonable at the time. And it was. Laurin never said she'd do anything for free and never said she'd do anything but open wormholes. That she apparently meant more than what she said was not something that could have been known at the time.

Hey, Frank, buddy, why don't you give me that shovel?

[ralphmerridew]

But Tarquin will never kill Elan (plus with his resources he could just pay another cleric to do it)! just the others and I think durkons wont neiher since, even if he's a vampire, he still consider OotS's members his friends.
So yes he could swear vengeance but the "never raise Elan" doesn't stand :)

Tarquin could find another cleric, but that doesn't mean Elan would accept resurrection from that cleric.

[Bulldog Psion]

Tarquin could find another cleric, but that doesn't mean Elan would accept resurrection from that cleric.

Yes, this is the reason why any threat to kill Elan (including suicide) would still potentially have an effect on Tarquin. Resurrection is impossible without the cooperation of the dead individual.

Of course, I doubt it will come to that. Laurin is burning, Miron is dead or nearly so, and Tarquin has the look of someone about to commit "suicide by adventurer."

[Orm-Embar]

Oh, for the love of Mike.

The only thing I'm asserting is that my innitial interpretation was reasonable at the time. And it was. Laurin never said she'd do anything for free and never said she'd do anything but open wormholes. That she apparently meant more than what she said was not something that could have been known at the time.

All she did was assert that she'd do Tarquin a solid. Denied that she owed him anything. And then asserted that he'd owe her, if he wanted.



But, that would allow two different opinions. That can't exist on this form, as much as I would like them to!

:)

Leave me out of this when blockquoting, please. I haven't posted in this thread since #927 went up and I don't want to be counted among those piling on. For the record, I mentioned in an earlier post that your interpretation could have been the right one. In fact, it doesn't even matter who was right for purposes of the issue I wanted to discuss originally - what's the relative value and acceptable parameters of a favor trade.

[jasonred79]

Here's a random thought that occured to me:

Tarquin, being a cunning, devious, lover of making the "plot" interesting, might decide that something more ORIGINAL than "kill the main protagonist" is needed in this situation.

For instance... acquire 10 potions of Stat Transfer... Charisma converted to Strength... and leave them in a convenient location...
Who ELSE in the OOTS would use them? ;)
And... to Tarquin... a party leader with a horrible charisma? Unthinkable!
So... he's converted the liability (Roy) into a bigger asset for his son! (stronger fighter)
...
Of course, this is simply until Durkon or Haley or heck just about anyone other than Elan becomes Party leader instead, at which point Tarquin goes ballistic. ;)

...

Oh, BTW... on that note, isn't Tarquin Genre Savvy enough to realise that a DIRECT ASSAULT on the main protagonist never works?
Isn't Tarquin more of a believer in the "Transformers: The Movie" style : "the young brash reckless youngster, through trials and a baptism of fire, rises to the position of leader of the team!"?

[orrion]

Here's a random thought that occured to me:

Tarquin, being a cunning, devious, lover of making the "plot" interesting, might decide that something more ORIGINAL than "kill the main protagonist" is needed in this situation.

For instance... acquire 10 potions of Stat Transfer... Charisma converted to Strength... and leave them in a convenient location...
Who ELSE in the OOTS would use them? ;)
And... to Tarquin... a party leader with a horrible charisma? Unthinkable!
So... he's converted the liability (Roy) into a bigger asset for his son! (stronger fighter)
...
Of course, this is simply until Durkon or Haley or heck just about anyone other than Elan becomes Party leader instead, at which point Tarquin goes ballistic. ;)



Doesn't that require everyone to think leadership is solely based upon the charismatic value of the leader? I don't think Tarquin is dumb enough to believe that, nor would the Order suddenly stop following Roy in that case, either.

[F.Harr]

I'm trying to help, but you should really drop it and stop discussing it too, Harr. ._.

Sorry about that. All I wanted to to have an opinion that differed from some one else's. And I was called upon to defend it again. And again. And again. And all of the objections claimed to be that I was "ignoring" or "missing" something. And I didn't. I looked at the exact same thing as other people and came to a different conclusion. And instead of being left in peace, I was pecked at. That ticks me off.


Ok, first of all, that big post you have by me up there was before the latest strip, so it doesn't really count as prolonging the argument.

Second of all, you keep harping on the idea that your interpretation was logical/reasonable, but it wasn't because it required Tarquin to act like a buffoon, which he is not. That's all I'm pointing out.

Third - Jesus, stop it. Two opinions can exist just fine.

THEN LET THEM!

As far as I'm concerned, both interpretations were perfectly reasonable interpretation of the facts then known. Stop trying trying to make it out that only one was viable.

And no, it DIDN'T require Tarquin to act like a buffoon. You just assume that it did because you're hung up on Laurin "offering to open a wormhole for free" and, having read the EXACT SAME TEXT AS YOU, I can't see that she did. Like I said, two different interpretations. The Giant seems to agree with you. So stop trying to make it out that I was stupid as well as wrong.

And why does it MATTER to you so much? We had an exchange of views. We disagreed. We even looked at the exact same data and still disagreed. I was perfectly fine leaving it at that. But then people kept pecking and pecking and pecking at it. Why? What's the point? I don't see that Laurin offered to do anything for free or offered to do anything put open wormholes. You do. Even after the quoting of the text and reading of the text. Why can't you just LEAVE it at that?


Hey, Frank, buddy, why don't you give me that shovel?

Don't be patronizing.


Leave me out of this when blockquoting, please.


My apologies.

[orrion]

And no, it DIDN'T require Tarquin to act like a buffoon. You just assume that it did because you're hung up on Laurin "offering to open a wormhole for free" and, having read the EXACT SAME TEXT AS YOU, I can't see that she did. Like I said, two different interpretations. The Giant seems to agree with you. So stop trying to make it out that I was stupid as well as wrong.

It did. Tarquin going into this fight with Laurin holding back would make him an idiot.

This might be in vain, but.. the goal for me was to try and improve your ability to read the text. I remain convinced that you misread it only because you missed some things, not because you're an idiot. Maybe English isn't your primary language or something. I don't know; it doesn't really matter, anyway. The point is to show you what you missed so that you can look for cues like that in future readings.

[F.Harr]

It did. Tarquin going into this fight with Laurin holding back would make him an idiot.

So, if it is something you would not have recommended that Tarquin do, he can't have done it. Fine.


This might be in vain, but.. the goal for me was to try and improve your ability to read the text. I remain convinced that you misread it only because you missed some things, not because you're an idiot. Maybe English isn't your primary language or something. I don't know; it doesn't really matter, anyway. The point is to show you what you missed so that you can look for cues like that in future readings.


1. English is my primary language.

2. I missed nothing, I simple interpreted it differently than you.

3. If I call a plumber, explain that I'm re-doing my bathroom and ask him if he'll install a toilet I bought and then he says yes, explains that I have not credit with him and then says I'll owe him $250, then I all I expect is for him to come over, instal a toilet and except a check. That's it.

4. Don't be patronizing. It is not your job to fix how my reading comprehension.

[mhsmith]

...
Of course it has to be. They're both evil and hence untrustworthy.


You're mixing up Evil and Chaotic. Plenty of Lawful Evil characters are completely (or almost completely) trustworthy (assuming you could actually get their their agreement in the first place). Even Neutral Evil characters can be generally trustworthy, or at least no less trustworthy than most, especially when it comes to dealing with long-time allies.



It makes me wonder if what Laurin expects in return also isn't that big a deal to her.

It's more that Laurin's favor wouldn't be that big of a deal to Tarquin. Clearly Tarquin getting this favor from Miron/Laurin is a very big deal to him, and not that huge of a deal to those two. It seems likely Miron's one-time favor was somewhat similar, and Laurin's would be as well.

[orrion]

So, if it is something you would not have recommended that Tarquin do, he can't have done it. Fine.

More like if it's something that's the complete opposite of Tarquin's established character, he's not going to do it. Rich is a better writer than that.

[jere7my]

3. If I call a plumber, explain that I'm re-doing my bathroom and ask him if he'll install a toilet I bought and then he says yes, explains that I have not credit with him and then says I'll owe him $250, then I all I expect is for him to come over, instal a toilet and except a check. That's it.

Why on earth would the plumber say "Although...you could owe me $250"? What is that "although" there for if not to set up a counterproposal? Laurin agreed to set up a wormhole for free in one panel, then used an "although" to set up something else. That's what although does. You could possibly, if you squinted, interpret that as her rescinding her free offer of a wormhole and trying to make Tarquin pay for something she'd already offered because he was desperate, but there is no way you can use "although" to link two halves of the same transaction.

Laurin offered a free wormhole in part A, then introduced part B with an although. Part B was either "I've reconsidered part A and now want you to owe me something for what I offered for free" or "I'll do more than what I offered if you owe me something." It turned out to be the second, but I'll admit it could have been the first. What part A absolutely could never have been was "I'll make a wormhole in exchange for a favor," which I believe you are claiming as a possible interpretation, because of the word "although" between parts A and B.

There is no shame in misreading a few lines of dialogue, but when you've been shown to be wrong just let it go, man.

[Bulldog Psion]

Is this still going around? :smalleek:

My thoughts:

1. Laurin offers to open a wormhole for free.

2. She then offers to go beyond this in some totally unspecified way in exchange for a favor.

3. Viewing what happened afterwards, it appears that she was agreeing to open multiple wormholes, fight the Order, and immobilize Roy so that Tarquin could kill him, all in exchange for said favor.

That's what the objective development of the action in the comic suggests to my mind at least. I don't know which, if any, position this supports in this thread.

The crucial part, though, seems to be whether the favor was in exchange for the wormhole, or for additional action. It seems to me that it is for "action above and beyond the wormhole," which could include anything or potentially everything that happened after the initial wormhole was opened.

[137beth]

Here's a random thought that occured to me:

Tarquin, being a cunning, devious, lover of making the "plot" interesting, might decide that something more ORIGINAL than "kill the main protagonist" is needed in this situation.

For instance... acquire 10 potions of Stat Transfer... Charisma converted to Strength... and leave them in a convenient location...
Who ELSE in the OOTS would use them? ;)
And... to Tarquin... a party leader with a horrible charisma? Unthinkable!
So... he's converted the liability (Roy) into a bigger asset for his son! (stronger fighter)
...
Of course, this is simply until Durkon or Haley or heck just about anyone other than Elan becomes Party leader instead, at which point Tarquin goes ballistic. ;)

...

Oh, BTW... on that note, isn't Tarquin Genre Savvy enough to realise that a DIRECT ASSAULT on the main protagonist never works?
Isn't Tarquin more of a believer in the "Transformers: The Movie" style : "the young brash reckless youngster, through trials and a baptism of fire, rises to the position of leader of the team!"?

Unfortunately for Tarquin, he doesn't know that Roy is the main protagonist, he thinks that that is Elan:smallamused:

[F.Harr]

You're mixing up Evil and Chaotic. Plenty of Lawful Evil characters are completely (or almost completely) trustworthy (assuming you could actually get their their agreement in the first place). Even Neutral Evil characters can be generally trustworthy, or at least no less trustworthy than most, especially when it comes to dealing with long-time allies.

Yes, because the story where the innocent person accepts the deal from the evil person and the details of the deal are exactly the same as the foolish assumptions the innocent person made is totally exciting and happens all the time.



It's more that Laurin's favor wouldn't be that big of a deal to Tarquin. Clearly Tarquin getting this favor from Miron/Laurin is a very big deal to him, and not that huge of a deal to those two. It seems likely Miron's one-time favor was somewhat similar, and Laurin's would be as well.

I don't think Tarquin CARES about Laurin's favor. Tarquin for the past few strips has had one and only one goal, to promote Elan to main protagonist. Anything, apparently, is worth that.


More like if it's something that's the complete opposite of Tarquin's established character, he's not going to do it. Rich is a better writer than that.

Tarquin's established character is that his loves his sons very much and is totally narcissistic and selfish in that love. I buy him going off half-cocked on this. But only because it's Elan's narrative arc that's at stake. I don't think he'd do it if it were his own.


Why on earth would the plumber say "Although...you could owe me $250"?

It's called a "quote". You tell a professional what you want done and they tell you how much it'll cost you. It's not common to do it before a full examination of everything associated with the proposed project, but that was a detail extraneous to the analogy.

The exact wording that you phrased it in is unimportant to what happened. It's an annoyingly coy way of putting it designed to make the desperate person snatch at it and the tip the audience off.


What is that "although" there for if not to set up a counterproposal? Laurin agreed to set up a wormhole for free in one panel, then used an "although" to set up something else. That's what although does.

My understanding of contract law is that any counter-proposal is the equivalent of saying no and then proposing an alternative contact. I'll admit to this being a primitive understanding, but my primitive understanding is that anything that isn't "yes" is "no".



You could possibly, if you squinted, interpret that as her rescinding her free offer of a wormhole and trying to make Tarquin pay for something she'd already offered because he was desperate, but there is no way you can use "although" to link two halves of the same transaction.

Only if you think agreed to open a wormhole for free. I don't see that she did.


There is no shame in misreading a few lines of dialogue, but when you've been shown to be wrong just let it go, man.

Except, I didn't misread it. It was perfectly plausible based on what we new at the time. And I'm not the one who's having problems letting it go. Or at least I'm not the only one. As I said before, given what we knew at the time, it was plausible. And I see no reason to change that assessment.


Is this still going around? :smalleek:

Sadly, yes.


My thoughts:

1. Laurin offers to open a wormhole for free.

Again, the way I read it, she didn't. As far as I can tell, what others read as her saying "O.K." I read as "This is what it'll cost you". I maintain that it was reasonable at the time. The Giant had other ideas. That's O.K., it's story.


2. She then offers to go beyond this in some totally unspecified way in exchange for a favor.

This is a big part of what I didn't buy. Why be unspecific? And why not just say, I'm in" Or "I'll fight them" or something? Why leave it up to interpretation? That's part of why I didn't think she agreed to do anything other than open wormholes.


3. Viewing what happened afterwards, it appears that she was agreeing to open multiple wormholes, fight the Order, and immobilize Roy so that Tarquin could kill him, all in exchange for said favor.


This is why I'm trying to be specific about "at the time, I had a reasonable interpretation" rather than talk about now. There was no way of knowing, unless you were the Giant, about what she and Tarquin understood. So absent knowing the subtext, it's reasonable and prudent to not assume anything not said explicitly simply doesn't exist as an understanding. It also made Laurin's behavior a nice surprise. Maybe it'll be explained later on. Maybe it won't. Who knows? That's part of the fun.


The crucial part, though, seems to be whether the favor was in exchange for the wormhole, or for additional action. It seems to me that it is for "action above and beyond the wormhole," which could include anything or potentially everything that happened after the initial wormhole was opened.

As I said, I simply can't read your statement 1 in the text. It simply doesn't seem to be there, no matter how hard I look for it. Perhaps that will become a point in Laurin and Tarquin's relationship. I'm interested in finding out.

[orrion]

I don't think Tarquin CARES about Laurin's favor. Tarquin for the past few strips has had one and only one goal, to promote Elan to main protagonist. Anything, apparently, is worth that.


Yes. That is why your reading that Tarquin goes into this fight without Laurin fighting is very suspect.



Tarquin's established character is that his loves his sons very much and is totally narcissistic and selfish in that love. I buy him going off half-cocked on this. But only because it's Elan's narrative arc that's at stake. I don't think he'd do it if it were his own.

Tarquin's established character is that he's smart, methodical and circumspect to the point of absurdity.



My understanding of contract law is that any counter-proposal is the equivalent of saying no and then proposing an alternative contact. I'll admit to this being a primitive understanding, but my primitive understanding is that anything that isn't "yes" is "no".

"I'll open a wormhole" is a yes.


This is a big part of what I didn't buy. Why be unspecific? And why not just say, I'm in" Or "I'll fight them" or something? Why leave it up to interpretation? That's part of why I didn't think she agreed to do anything other than open wormholes.

It wasn't unspecific when you take into account the scene as a whole and what Laurin had already been doing. Remember, Miron and Tarquin had just done a favor exchange for Miron to fight. Laurin then says she'll open wormholes (because she'd been doing that already anyway), but that she'd need a similar favor exchange if Tarquin wanted her fighting.

This is just follow-the-path reading. X (favor exchange) happened, leading to Y (Miron fighting). X (favor exchange) happening again directly afterward also leads to Y (Laurin fighting). It's nothing more complicated than that.

If Laurin had done nothing so far, then I would think that your interpretation would be more valid. Since Laurin had already been opening wormholes for Tarquin at no cost we could see, it doesn't make sense for her to suddenly want a favor for more wormholes. If anything, that favor would have been negotiated earlier before she opened any at all.

[jere7my]

The exact wording that you phrased it in is unimportant to what happened. It's an annoyingly coy way of putting it designed to make the desperate person snatch at it and the tip the audience off.

I don't know how to phrase this without sounding patronizing, but this is a legitimate question: Do you know what the word "although" means? It's not just a meaningless interjection, like "um" or "ahem". It means "however" or "on the other hand"—that is, it denotes a change in direction. It means that she was, necessarily, offering something different in panel B than she was offering in panel A.

Your plumber would never say, "I'll install your toilet. Although, you could pay me $250 for it." It makes no sense, unless the plumber is rescinding her initial offer to install the toilet for free because she thinks she can gouge you for some cash. The two sentences cannot be part of the same offer.

That is why your initial interpretation is not a valid reading. You need to account for the "although." You can't just wave it away as "coy"; it has a meaning.

[Dwy]

Guys, you've derailed. Badly.





On topic:

NO. ELAN HAS TO DIE, BECAUSE REASONS.Also he's stealing Haley's spotlight.

[F.Harr]

Yes. That is why your reading that Tarquin goes into this fight without Laurin fighting is very suspect.

Why do you care?




Tarquin's established character is that he's smart, methodical and circumspect to the point of absurdity.

Smart people do dumb things. Especially when it involves soemthign important and the clock is ticking.



"I'll open a wormhole" is a yes.

"Although it'll cost you a favor" is a rejection and counteroffer.




It wasn't unspecific when you take into account the scene as a whole and what Laurin had already been doing.

Stop. Just stop. I'm only going to discuss at the time. I am unwilling to discuss any subsiquent events because the length and breadth of my position is that at the time knowing what was known, I had an equally reasonable interpretation.

[/QUOTE]


I don't know how to phrase this without sounding patronizing

So don't. Seriously, don't.


Guys, you've derailed. Badly.

Ain't THAT the truth.






On topic:

NO. ELAN HAS TO DIE, BECAUSE REASONS.Also he's stealing Haley's spotlight.

Oh, no! Haley's spotlight! AAAAAAA!

Hey, I just thought of this. Could you see the scene where Elan runs away from one of Shojo's spotlights as forshadowing when Elan ebraces secondfiddle-hood?

[orrion]

"Although it'll cost you a favor" is a rejection and counteroffer.

Rejection of what? There was nothing to reject. Laurin is the only one talking in those panels.



Stop. Just stop. I'm only going to discuss at the time. I am unwilling to discuss any subsiquent events because the length and breadth of my position is that at the time knowing what was known, I had an equally reasonable interpretation.


I am not discussing subsequent events. Laurin was already opening wormholes before that point. I am pointing out previous events. For example, when Laurin opens a gigantic wormhole for Tarquin's army.

I suppose you could hand wave that by saying that wormhole was a separate favor, but Laurin doesn't say "you can owe me another favor," nor does she or Tarquin refer to a previous favor in any way.

[jere7my]

"Although it'll cost you a favor" is a rejection and counteroffer.

I've been saying this was a possibility all along: you could "interpret that as her rescinding her free offer of a wormhole and trying to make Tarquin pay for something she'd already offered because he was desperate". In other words, it was possible that she offered to make a wormhole for free, then immediately took back the offer. That didn't turn out to be the case, but it was a conceivable interpretation at the time.

You've been saying that she never offered to make a wormhole for free, which was never a possibility. If it is now your position that she could have made the offer and then rescinded it, I'm glad we agree.

[mhsmith]

I've been saying this was a possibility all along: you could "interpret that as her rescinding her free offer of a wormhole and trying to make Tarquin pay for something she'd already offered because he was desperate". In other words, it was possible that she offered to make a wormhole for free, then immediately took back the offer. That didn't turn out to be the case, but it was a conceivable interpretation at the time.

You've been saying that she never offered to make a wormhole for free, which was never a possibility. If it is now your position that she could have made the offer and then rescinded it, I'm glad we agree.

I'll open a wormhole, but I don't owe you any favors, Tarquin.

Although... you could owe me one, if this means that much to you.

There is no remotely reasonable interpretation of the above language other than her offering to do something else in exchange for Tarquin owing her a favor. Even without the context of her having opened a bunch of wormholes for free already (which makes the "I'll open another one but THIS time it'll cost you" interpretation even more absurd), it's pretty clear already.

[jere7my]

I'll open a wormhole, but I don't owe you any favors, Tarquin.

Although... you could owe me one, if this means that much to you.

There is no remotely reasonable interpretation of the above language other than her offering to do something else in exchange for Tarquin owing her a favor.

Sure there is. "I'll open a wormhole for free, but I won't do anything more. Although, now that I think about it, you look pretty desperate—how about you owe me a favor, if you want a wormhole so badly?"

That's a technically possible interpretation, albeit not the most likely one, and not the one that turned out to be correct.

[orrion]

Sure there is. "I'll open a wormhole for free, but I won't do anything more. Although, now that I think about it, you look pretty desperate—how about you owe me a favor, if you want a wormhole so badly?"

That's a technically possible interpretation, albeit not the most likely one, and not the one that turned out to be correct.

True, that's possible. Still brings up the issue of why the huge wormhole for the army, but yeah, remotely possible.

That wasn't the original argument, though.

[F.Harr]

Rejection of what?

Tarquin's request for a wormhole without offering her anything in return.


I've been saying this was a possibility all along: you could "interpret that as her rescinding her free offer of a wormhole and trying to make Tarquin pay for something she'd already offered because he was desperate".

I still can't find any time where she offered to open a wormhole for free.


True, that's possible. Still brings up the issue of why the huge wormhole for the army, but yeah, remotely possible..

Who knows. But as Tarquin wasn't anywhere near as desperate then, wormholes weren't so valuable.


Even without the context of her having opened a bunch of wormholes for free already (which makes the "I'll open another one but THIS time it'll cost you" interpretation even more absurd), it's pretty clear already.

It's not at all absurd. After viewing Tarquin's family drama, the price for Lauin's services went up. It's like the bricklayer raising his prices when he finds out you need the wall by Monday.

[jere7my]

I still can't find any time where she offered to open a wormhole for free.

"I'll open a wormhole." Bam. That's it.

[Dr.Gunsforhands]

So back to the topic, I had to come back to this thread apropos of nothing because I just realized something.

Tarquin's goal is to make sure that one of his sons is the lead protagonist.

Elan already solved the problem. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0739.html)

Okay, that's enough making a fool of myself for now. :smalltongue:

[orrion]

Tarquin's request for a wormhole without offering her anything in return.

Tarquin never requested a wormhole. Read the comic.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0924.html

After the exchange between him and Miron, he turned to Laurin and said "Laurin?"

He did not say "Laurin, will you open a wormhole?" or anything of that sort.

You've spent a lot of time arguing that things need to be spelled out explicitly. You cannot now tell me that Tarquin was specifically asking for a wormhole when he said Laurin's name. Especially since nothing about wormholes was mentioned before that. Laurin is the one who brought up the wormholes.

[Orm-Embar]

So back to the topic, I had to come back to this thread apropos of nothing because I just realized something.

Tarquin's goal is to make sure that one of his sons is the lead protagonist.

Elan already solved the problem. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0739.html)

Okay, that's enough making a fool of myself for now. :smalltongue:

That's... not so foolish, actually! That solution could work. Tarquin is already impressed with Roy ("You're a fine warrior, Mr. Greenhilt..."), and disappointed with Elan. It would be a way for Tarquin to control the narrative, at least in his mind. But if Elan fasttalks him into taking this way out, that would mean Elan is playing a major role after all - irony!

[F.Harr]

"I'll open a wormhole." Bam. That's it.

If you want to ignore that she didn't stop talking, that's fine. "Although" is a conjunction. It's important.


So back to the topic, I had to come back to this thread apropos of nothing because I just realized something.

Tarquin's goal is to make sure that one of his sons is the lead protagonist.

Elan already solved the problem. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0739.html)

Okay, that's enough making a fool of myself for now. :smalltongue:

Too bad Tarquin's such a snob, eh?


Read the comic.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0924.html



Short of saying I agree with something that I don't, what can I do to convince you I read the exact same thing you did?

[jere7my]

If you want to ignore that she didn't stop talking, that's fine. "Although" is a conjunction. It's important.

FFS, dude, you're the one who's been ignoring the "although." She goes on to say "but", and then she goes on to say "although," as in:

"I'm going to the store, but not for a while. Although...I could go to the pond instead."

There is no way in English to follow a "but" clause with an "although" clause without it being a reversal of direction. The although has to introduce something that runs counter to or contradicts what she just said. You cannot say "A but B, although C" and have A, B, and C all be part of the same thought. That is not how English works.

In panel A, she offers to open a wormhole for free, no strings attached. "I'll open a wormhole." 100% incontrovertible. "But I don't owe you any favors" cannot contradict the "I will" in the first clause. If it were "I would," then you might have a case. But it's "I will."

Then she goes on to say "Although..." It's a new thought. She's introducing a new element to the offer she just made. That does not, and cannot, mean she didn't make the offer in the first place. You have to ignore the word "although" to reach your conclusion.

[orrion]

Short of saying I agree with something that I don't, what can I do to convince you I read the exact same thing you did?

You can tell me how you got to Tarquin saying "Laurin, will you please open a wormhole for me for free" from Tarquin saying "Laurin?" in that comic.

Preferably without violating your stance that you can't make any determinations unless things are spelled out explicitly. To get to the point you're now making you have just made a leap that is significantly beyond what any of us were pointing out to you for the last several pages.

[Dr.Gunsforhands]

You can tell me how you got to Tarquin saying "Laurin, will you please open a wormhole for me for free" from Tarquin saying "Laurin?" in that comic.

I can't tell what you guys are arguing about... the context had Tarquin asking something more along the lines of, "Laurin, aren't you coming with us?" Her response can be rephrased as, "yeah, no. I can open one wormhole for you idiots, but then you're on your own." That was the maximum she was willing to do before she brought up the new favor thing. From what I can tell, Tarquin was hoping she'd go along with the whole fight for free.

Meanwhile, I've been thinking about my silly thing from before.

- Elan's secret plan has something to do with Roy's comment about finding a sense of family with people who are good, rather than the other way around.
- Durkon, as a cleric of the biggest Bro in the Northern pantheon, can probably preside over fraternities as well as marriages.

As a con, Tarquin seems like the sort of person who would consider family ties to be determined exclusively by flesh and blood, so he probably wouldn't buy it; he just wants to be able to say that his genes are Big Hero stock.

[Kish]

I can't tell what you guys are arguing about... the context had Tarquin asking something more along the lines of, "Laurin, aren't you coming with us?" Her response can be rephrased as, "yeah, no. I can open one wormhole for you idiots, but then you're on your own." That was the maximum she was willing to do before she brought up the new favor thing. From what I can tell, Tarquin was hoping she'd go along with the whole fight for free.

Congratulations, your interpretation concurs with that of everyone else in the argument except F. Harr.

F. Harr is maintaining that it was, at least, an equally valid interpretation that her response could be rephrased as, "I'll open wormholes for you, if you want to owe me a favor, but I won't participate in the battle other than by opening wormholes, and if you don't want to owe me a favor then you don't get any wormholes either."

[orrion]

I can't tell what you guys are arguing about... the context had Tarquin asking something more along the lines of, "Laurin, aren't you coming with us?" Her response can be rephrased as, "yeah, no. I can open one wormhole for you idiots, but then you're on your own." That was the maximum she was willing to do before she brought up the new favor thing. From what I can tell, Tarquin was hoping she'd go along with the whole fight for free.


Right now the argument has shifted to F. Harr using some sort of context that I don't see at all to read "Laurin, are you coming with us?" as Tarquin asking for a free wormhole.

Which frustrates me to no end because he really hasn't been willing to use any context at all to this point, and the leap he is making with it is bigger than any of the leaps we used to argue our interpretation against his original interpretation.

[Dr.Gunsforhands]

Right now the argument has shifted to F. Harr using some sort of context that I don't see at all to read "Laurin, are you coming with us?" as Tarquin asking for a free wormhole.

Well, he kind of was. It was clear to all involved that he needed that free wormhole. If she just silently opened it up and didn't go in with them, Tarquin wouldn't have had much room to complain.

[Kish]

Well, he kind of was. It was clear to all involved that he needed that free wormhole. If she just silently opened it up and didn't go in with them, Tarquin wouldn't have had much room to complain.
But it is clear to nearly all involved on this board that she did offer to open a wormhole for Tarquin for free, and that the entire negotiation was about her doing more than a wormhole; F. Harr suggested that she retroactively added a price to the wormhole and, until the current strip came out, argued that she wasn't going to participate in the fight except by opening wormholes (including arguing that her blasting Haley somehow didn't count).

[Orm-Embar]

Meanwhile, I've been thinking about my silly thing from before.

- Elan's secret plan has something to do with Roy's comment about finding a sense of family with people who are good, rather than the other way around.
- Durkon, as a cleric of the biggest Bro in the Northern pantheon, can probably preside over fraternities as well as marriages.

As a con, Tarquin seems like the sort of person who would consider family ties to be determined exclusively by flesh and blood, so he probably wouldn't buy it; he just wants to be able to say that his genes are Big Hero stock.

I don't think Roy would be into this adoption thing on a personal level with Tarquin, agreed. But he might be willing to take it as a diplomatic way out, as being better than a fight to the death. And I could see him being okay with the role of Elan's big brother.

From Tarquin's point of view I think you're probably right. Some of his decisions are driven by pride and he clearly cares about his sons partly because they're his. But just maybe, given the way he was glad to welcome Elan after ignoring his existence for most of Elan's life, he might be willing to do the same with Roy? I dunno, that does seem strained. But it would have the benefit of giving Tarquin a stake in the next generation through a great warrior, rather than an incompetent second fiddle.

I guess it doesn't seem likely to play out that way, but it sure struck me as funny and maybe even sort of plausible if it did.

[F.Harr]

Right now the argument has shifted to F. Harr using some sort of context that I don't see at all to read "Laurin, are you coming with us?" as Tarquin asking for a free wormhole.

Which frustrates me to no end because he really hasn't been willing to use any context at all to this point, and the leap he is making with it is bigger than any of the leaps we used to argue our interpretation against his original interpretation.


Why do you care?

Seriously, I made my arguments, you made yours. Neither of us have anything new to say No one was convinced and the comic moved on without us. What's the prize, here?

[orrion]

Why do you care?

Seriously, I made my arguments, you made yours. Neither of us have anything new to say No one was convinced and the comic moved on without us. What's the prize, here?

Boredom, I like arguing, I like discussion, whatever. Pick whichever one you want. It really doesn't matter.

... There's never any prize, so I guess it's never worth posting at all, and everyone should just leave.

[bengator]

That's... not so foolish, actually! That solution could work. Tarquin is already impressed with Roy ("You're a fine warrior, Mr. Greenhilt..."), and disappointed with Elan. It would be a way for Tarquin to control the narrative, at least in his mind. But if Elan fasttalks him into taking this way out, that would mean Elan is playing a major role after all - irony!

Theoretically, that was my point at the start of yhe thread, that if Elan saved the day, would that satisfy Tarquin? From the look on Tarquin's face in the last strip, I would say probably not. I think he has lost it.

[orrion]

Theoretically, that was my point at the start of yhe thread, that if Elan saved the day, would that satisfy Tarquin? From the look on Tarquin's face in the last strip, I would say probably not. I think he has lost it.

Tarquin wants Elan to lead, not just save the day, so I'd agree with the "probably not."

[Alexkubel]

After reading the entire thread, and also gone though a good part of OotS again, I personally think, neither Elan or Roy will, die my money is on V, this would sabotage any argument Roy's father had for 'mages are superior' and would be a logical choice. If a favor is owed then I suspect they will get away, noting the idea of the favor to be 'bare a child' this would allow Tarquin to disinherit Elan without risking the loss of his line, meaning Tarquin doesn't matter to the plot as much.

and of the existing ones

I actually understand F. Harr's argument better then the main supported one.

[orrion]

After reading the entire thread, and also gone though a good part of OotS again, I personally think, neither Elan or Roy will, die my money is on V, this would sabotage any argument Roy's father had for 'mages are superior' and would be a logical choice. If a favor is owed then I suspect they will get away, noting the idea of the favor to be 'bare a child' this would allow Tarquin to disinherit Elan without risking the loss of his line, meaning Tarquin doesn't matter to the plot as much.

Pretty sure Roy isn't going to go throw V's death - if it happens - in his father's face to refute him. That line of thinking, and Roy and his father's relationship, really has nothing to do with the current fight. So I see that as kind of being from left field.

Also, if V did die it would be Laurin that killed him (because he can fly, so Tarquin isn't able to) and Eugene's argument was always that mages are superior to fighters, so that doesn't really refute his stance anyway. And even if Tarquin somehow landed the killing blow on V, he would never have been able to do it without Laurin's help, so, again, that doesn't really refute Eugene's stance.

[Kish]

If Laurin demands, for her favor, that Tarquin bear a child, I certainly hope we get to see the results on-panel.

(And yes, that's me saying that I hope Tarquin doesn't leave the story with all possible speed, if that happens.)

[mimhoff]

If Laurin demands, for her favor, that Tarquin bear a child, I certainly hope we get to see the results on-panel.

(And yes, that's me saying that I hope Tarquin doesn't leave the story with all possible speed, if that happens.)

That would be impressive. Especially since Laurin thinks he can do it by the end of the day.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Thread hop...

"Does Roy have to die?"

From Tarquin's point of view? Yeah, I am pretty sure he wouldn't be satisfied by anything less. Tarquin specifically wants Elan to be the leader of a different party, not a member of this one.

[Psyren]

The whip however we can expect to show up soon. This is good news for the order since without his axe, Tarquin will have a harder time vs. Roy, and with the whip he won't be able to kill anyone.

Well, I was right about the whip reappearing, but I did underestimate Tarquin's resourcefulness (and facility with his dagger.)


I would love for Elan to snuff it just so we can check out Arborea. I wouldn't want Roy to die simply because (a) we'll end up right back in boring Celestia (or worse, the boring cloud), (b) as others have said if Roy dies Tarquin is very likely to make it permanent and (c) being the only member of the party to kick the bucket that much definitely puts a huge crimp in Roy's thesis statement that Fighters Don't Suck. It would be like... yeah, they kinda do actually, sorry you had delusions otherwise, thanks for playing.

And sadly, it's looking like - no matter what else comes of this battle, even if Roy survives his thesis statement is looking pretty full of holes at the moment.

[KillianHawkeye]

If Laurin demands, for her favor, that Tarquin bear a child, I certainly hope we get to see the results on-panel.

(And yes, that's me saying that I hope Tarquin doesn't leave the story with all possible speed, if that happens.)

Tarquin is incapable of bearing a child, because he is male. :smallconfused:

[veti]

Tarquin is incapable of bearing a child, because he is male. :smallconfused:

Baleful Polymorph.

Followed by a houseruled first-edition 'Haste' spell (ages the subject by 1 year).

In a world governed by loosely-applied D&D rules, nothing is impossible.:smallbiggrin:

[Tebryn]

And sadly, it's looking like - no matter what else comes of this battle, even if Roy survives his thesis statement is looking pretty full of holes at the moment.

Tarquin's however is looking much better.

[Psyren]

Tarquin's however is looking much better.

Well, Roy's not out yet... hopefully.

This is likely to be what, the second time he's put Roy into negatives? And both were due to his pet spellcasters. It's sad, really.

[zimmerwald1915]

Baleful Polymorph.

Followed by a houseruled first-edition 'Haste' spell (ages the subject by 1 year).

In a world governed by loosely-applied D&D rules, nothing is impossible.:smallbiggrin:
Polymorph any object is simpler.

[AstralFire]

Polymorph any object is simpler.

Truly... a labor of love. :smallcool: