help/rate or improve this build? Ultimate Magus

[morkendi]

Character level is 10
Human Beguiler1/Diviner 4/ Ultimate Magus 5

1. Beguiler
Feats able learner and Reach spell

2. Diviner
Spontaneous divination acf
Prescience acf
still have scribe scroll and familiar

3. Diviner
Feat practiced spell caster to beguiler

4 and 5. Diviner

6. Ultimate magus
Feat is easy Mets Magic to reduce reach spell from +2 to +1
Arcane spell power +1
+1 level of lower cl existing arcane casting class which would be diviner

7. UM
Expanded spell knowledge (1st level or lower) +1 to both casting classes

8. UM
Augmented casting and +1 to both casting classes.

9. UM
Feat is Rapid Meta Magic. Should allow me to cast MM without increase to casting time
Arcane spell power +2, expanded spell knowledge (2nd level or lower)
+1 level of lower cl existing arcane casting class. With both tied in CL, I choose Diviner

10. UM
Feat is Empower spell for UM bonus MM
+1 to both base class spell casting.

This should allow me to only be 1 behind with diviner spells casting as a 9th lvl diviner but CL of 11. The beguiler only casting as 4th lvl but with cl of 7 if I am right on both. I should be able to sack the beguiler spells for MM on the fly without increase to casting time. Easy MM and sacked beguiler spell will make reach a +0. I should be able to ray things like shivering touch without the spell level increase. I reach shivering touch empowered and such?

Dropped school enchantment since the beguiler with handle a good amount of that. May choose evocation instead though, I have not decided for sure.

[morkendi]

Am I interpreting the way the MM is working together right? I think I have the classes right.

[Story]

Spontaneous Divination must be taken at Wizard 5, which means you can't get it until after you're done with UM. And it makes being a Diviner useless anyway. Also, Domain Wizard is way better then Specializing. You may want to use Combat Wizard acf to trade out Scribe Scroll for Improved Initiative too.

You need to use Practiced Spellcaster on Beguiler, not Wizard.

Rapid Metamagic is not useful since you'll normally be sacking your Beguiler slots to cast on the Wizard side, not the reverse.

[morkendi]

Meant to do it to Beguiler. I took leadership on my character. This will be my cohort. Party is short on utility arcane and real skill monkey. Party now connsist of my melee cleric, a shaman, and a fighter with sword and board stuff.

[Firebug]

Why even bother with beguiler? Why not Wizard 5 (Spontaneous Divination)/Ultimate Magus 5 for 7th level spells with a caster level of 15?

[Story]

Because that relies on deliberately misinterpreting the rules and even then probably doesn't work like you think? Even drown healing is less questionable then that.

[Crake]

Because that relies on deliberately misinterpreting the rules and even then probably doesn't work like you think? Even drown healing is less questionable then that.

More like "because I don't want a book to the face"

[Firebug]

How is it misinterpreting the rules? You can spontaneously cast arcane divination spells due to Spontaneous Divination, which includes 1st level arcane spells. You can cast the rest of your spells from a spellbook, which includes 2nd level arcane prepared spells.

So, you meet all of the prerequisites for Ultimate Magus. Your lowest level arcane casting class is Wizard. Your prepared arcane casting class is wizard. Your spontaneous arcane casting class is also wizard. Any time you gain "+1 level of existing X arcane casting class" you increase your wizard spells.

Its just RAW vs RAI. You are arguing RAI.

EDIT: And if its for a Cohort anyway who is just there for utility (assuming not taking save or dies or save or sucks) then what does it matter? It already starts off at a lower level then the party anyway.

[Emperor Tippy]

Spontaneous Divination Wizard 5/ Ultimate Magus 10 without doing double level progression still nets you +14 CL (so CL of 19 at ECL 15) and 2 bonus feats.

Arguably it also lets you trade spell slots for adjustment free meta and lets you add a 5th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd, and 1st level spell to those that you can Spontaneously cast.

It's strictly better than straight wizard 15.

Frankly, if your DM lets you use augmented casting and expanded spell knowledge it becomes one of the better wizard PrC's.

[Story]

Its just RAW vs RAI. You are arguing RAI.


No, even by strict RAW it's highly questionable.

First off does Spontaneous Divination turn Wizard into a "spontaneous arcane casting class"? I'd say no, but it's hard to say definitively because it's not a defined game term. But that's the first point of contention.

Even if that does work, double progression is debateable. The exact text is


you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in both a prepared arcane casting class and a spontaneous arcane casting class

Note that at no point does it say you gain two levels. Gaining a single level in Wizard would satisfy the literal meaning of the text just as well.

[Emperor Tippy]

No, even by strict RAW it's highly questionable.

First off does Spontaneous Divination turn Wizard into a "spontaneous arcane casting class"? I'd say no, but it's hard to say definitively because it's not a defined game term. But that's the first point of contention.
No, per RAW that bit is actually clear cut legal.

Spontaneous Divination is a class feature. It's not a feat, it makes a wizard with it a spontaneous arcane casting class.


Even if that does work, double progression is debateable. The exact text is

Note that at no point does it say you gain two levels. Gaining a single level in Wizard would satisfy the literal meaning of the text just as well.
Double level progression is that part that is RAW iffy.

[OOPWER]

I think there's a difference between the two subjects, those being

A: Wizard is a prepared-spell caster.
B: Wizard with Spontaneous (X) is now a spontaneous caster.

The class feature (Spontaneous [X]) does not transform the Wizard into a spontaneous caster. He is now a prepared-spell caster who has the ability to spontaneously cast spells of (X) school. This leads me to believe that Ultimate Magus level progression would only progress levels in the Wizard spell casting progression.

tl;dr: I don't think using the early entry trick would give you double progression because your base class is still a prepared-spell caster, who happens to have a class feature that gives him spontaneous spells.

[Emperor Tippy]

I think there's a difference between the two subjects, those being

A: Wizard is a prepared-spell caster.
B: Wizard with Spontaneous (X) is now a spontaneous caster.

The class feature (Spontaneous [X]) does not transform the Wizard into a spontaneous caster. He is now a prepared-spell caster who has the ability to spontaneously cast spells of (X) school. This leads me to believe that Ultimate Magus level progression would only progress levels in the Wizard spell casting progression.

tl;dr: I don't think using the early entry trick would give you double progression because your base class is still a prepared-spell caster, who happens to have a class feature that gives him spontaneous spells.

No, Spontaneous Divination is a class feature that allows the wizard class to spontaneously cast Arcane Spells. It is now both a Prepared and a Spontaneous Arcane casting class.

If you have the ability (via class feature) to Spontaneously cast spells then you are a spontaneous casting class.

Double progression is hazy because of other reasons.

[OOPWER]

Sounds like the OP is running into: You need to ask your DM what's ok. Personally, I would say that that the Spontaneous Divination does not make the Wizard a spontaneous spell caster. You would say it does. This is the kind of RAI that the OP's DM needs to decide, at which point I'd say it's out of my hands.

[Captnq]

I always wanted to do a Mystic Ranger/Bard/Ultimate Magus/Sublime Chord Combo.

Mystic Ranger: 1-4 (MRCL:4)
Wizard: 1 (WCL: 5)
Mystic Theurge: 1 (MR/W:6/2[7])
Mystic Theurge: 2 (MR/W:7/3[10])
Mystic Theurge: 3 (MR/W:8/4[12])
Bard: 1
Mystic Theurge: 4 (MR/W/Bard:9/5[12]/2)
Sublime Chord: 1
Ultimate Magus: 1 (MR/W/B/SC:9/5[16]/2/2)
Ultimate Magus: 2 (MR/W/B/SC:10/5[18]/2/3)
Ultimate Magus: 3 (MR/W/B/SC:10/6[20]/2/4)
Ultimate Magus: 4 (MR/W/B/SC:10/6[21]/2/5)
Ultimate Magus: 5 (MR/W/B/SC:10/7[23]/2/6)
Ultimate Magus: 6 (MR/W/B/SC:10/8[25]/2/7)
Ultimate Magus: 7 (MR/W/B/SC:10/8[26]/2/8)

Throw in a few Practiced Spellcasters at the right level and you could get a CL of 32, easy. Hardly optimized, just something I screw around with every once in a while.

[morkendi]

I wanted to do Beguiler to fill the skill monkey roll somewhat. We also have no arcane caster at all. Doing UM would fill a good part of both because both base classes run off intelligence. As a cohort to my cleric who has taken leadership, I want him to fill in the gaps my cleric can not cover. The utility roll is what I am looking for most. My cleric has already become the main damage dealer of the party as well as buffer.

My cleric is a LE cleric of Pelor, the burning hate. He hides it so that people assume he is a normal cleric of Pelor. I also plan on this cohort being able to gather info, be sneaky, etc. Diviner / beguler seems like good flavor, decent synergy, and able to do what I am looking for without being gimp.