Spell-less Synthesist [Pathfinder]

[GhostwheelZ]

So I've got a player who wants to be a Synthesist summoner, but without spells. I'm okay with this, but what should I replace the spells with? They said they'd like to be able to heal the Eidolon normally and be immune to Banishment/Dismissal. I okayed the former, and am thinking of denying the latter (since I won't throw that spell constantly at them, but want it to make an impact when it does happen), and suggested also full BAB, but just that doesn't seem to be enough to make up for the lack of casting, which is a huge deal for the Synthesist.

So my question, do you guys have any further suggestions on what to trade for spellcasting as a Synthesist?

[Frosty]

The synthesist is gimping himself a LOT by not having spellcasting. Even something as basic as Enlarge Person helps a lot in doing damage.

[GhostwheelZ]

Yes, I realize that, that's why I'm fishing for advice on what more to give him :-P

What should I give him on top of full BAB and the ability to heal normally in return for the lack of casting?

[Frosty]

I dunno...but something based off of CHA.

[Dissonance]

maybe import the monk's and ninja's chi system? not exactly spellcasting per se, and gives him a flexible resource in combat.

[Edge of Dreams]

Important question: Why doesn't he want spells?

If he's afraid of managing a spell list, then you could substitute spell like abilities. Every level or two, pick a spell that a normal Summoner would have been able to use, and give it to him as an at-will or X times per day spell-like ability. That would cut down on spell management a ton but still give him some good powers.

If he just doesn't care about casting and wants to be a physical combat badass, give him more evolution points and/or combat features from a class like Fighter, Barbarian, or Rogue.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Edge of Dreams is right: the answer to the question depends on whether the player doesn't want to have any magic besides the eidolon at all or just doesn't want the extra complexity of being a full spellcaster. In the former case, giving him some ninja/rogue/fighter/whatever other melee class features could work. If it's the latter, and some at-will SLAs are still too complex, you could go with one of the following:
Magical Bond: Choose one buff spell per spell level that the summoner would normally have access to off the summoner's list. As long as the eidolon is summoned, both the summoner and the eidolon benefit from the chosen spells.
Channel Summons: When assigning evolution points to his eidolon, the summoner can grant the eidolon all the (Su), (Sp), and (Ex) ability of a creature he could summon with a summon monster spell at a cost of [1 + spell level/2] evolution points.
Give him two or three free archetypes in exchange for trading away his casting, depending on the archetypes chosen.

[GhostwheelZ]

Important question: Why doesn't he want spells?

If he's afraid of managing a spell list, then you could substitute spell like abilities. Every level or two, pick a spell that a normal Summoner would have been able to use, and give it to him as an at-will or X times per day spell-like ability. That would cut down on spell management a ton but still give him some good powers.

If he just doesn't care about casting and wants to be a physical combat badass, give him more evolution points and/or combat features from a class like Fighter, Barbarian, or Rogue.

The latter. He sees his character as a big monster-type thing that focuses completely on melee combat. So should I give him full BAB, as well as full Barbarian rage?

[JusticeZero]

Look in the Psionics rules for the Aegis. They manifest armor around themselves that follows rules similar to an Eidolon.

[GhostwheelZ]

Look in the Psionics rules for the Aegis. They manifest armor around themselves that follows rules similar to an Eidolon.

Doesn't fit them, since they literally see their character as a rampaging monster with claws, horns, biting stuff, etc.

[grarrrg]

If he's afraid of managing a spell list, then you could substitute spell like abilities. Every level or two, pick a spell that a normal Summoner would have been able to use, and give it to him as an at-will or X times per day spell-like ability. That would cut down on spell management a ton but still give him some good powers.

^ Basically this ^
Even if he doesn't "want" spells, there are still some that are VERY handy to have.
Summon Eidolon for emergencies, and Evolution Surge(s) for situational abilities come to mind.

[JusticeZero]

Doesn't fit them, since they literally see their character as a rampaging monster with claws, horns, biting stuff, etc.
This. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/aegis/archetypes/dreamscarred-press/aberrant)
The Abberant Aegis trades "psychic armor" for turning into a cthulhu-esque horror of natural weaponry.

[JusticeZero]

Ultimate Psionics is adding a natural weaponry werewolf-esque horror of a Soulknife (the Feral Heart) as well - which probably means that you could plug Metaforge into the equation. I haven't checked to see if there is any restrictions against the combo. Or any other class or ability that adds claws and teeth and the like, really.

[Keneth]

Toss a few more evolution points at them, and maybe a bonus combat feat every time he would otherwise get the next level of spells.

[upho]

The latter. He sees his character as a big monster-type thing that focuses completely on melee combat. So should I give him full BAB, as well as full Barbarian rage?Full BAB could be OK, just remember that as soon as the eidolon has the large evo his primary attacks will probably hit anything on a 2 anyway. So it might become sort of redundant unless he plans to wield weapons.

Barb rage isn't bad, but since it doesn't add much combat flexibility by itself, it'll remain yet another rather boring (near-)constant ability booster. Rage with full access to rage powers (as if a barb of equal level) though... That might actually be a somewhat fair trade for spells. Uh... A "Rage Power Synth"? Hmm... Sounds like something you'd find among the factory presets on a synthesizer... :smallfrown:

Anyhow, the resulting build will likely be ridiculously OP in comparison to any other melee builds in the party, but so would a normal synthesist also be. So if he's the only non-caster melee PC, I think it might work. This solution also has the added bonus of being more balanced to casters than existing melee classes are. The build would be very combat focused and not nearly as much of a swiss army knife as casters are of course, but the awesome combat abilities stands a good chance of remaining relevant even in high levels. Depending on playstyle, your players' personalities, optimization levels, class preferences etc, the caster/mundane power gap might not be problematic in your group. But if you're less lucky and it often becomes problematic, this melee monster wrecking ball could be a refreshing and fun experience for everyone involved, especially for its player.

Oh yes, forgot to mention that if you do this you should probably introduce rage and rage powers a bit later than level 1 and 2, so as to not risk early level combat becoming even more of a one-man show. Perhaps rage level 2 and powers level 4?

[upho]

This. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/aegis/archetypes/dreamscarred-press/aberrant)
The Abberant Aegis trades "psychic armor" for turning into a cthulhu-esque horror of natural weaponry.

Ultimate Psionics is adding a natural weaponry werewolf-esque horror of a Soulknife (the Feral Heart) as well - which probably means that you could plug Metaforge into the equation.I'm not yet familiar with these options, but just from having looked at the Metamorphosis power, I believe a psionic class could be very suitable to build a melee monster PC from. A problem, I guess, might be that the psionic classes use powers which have temporary effects and are very similar to spells. Also, are there psionic powers granting, for example, true size increases, additional heads, reach, gore attacks or the swallow whole ability?

But I guess you could combine for example an oni-spawn tiefling (starting with claws and maw) with two levels barb (for rage and Fiend Totem) and X levels suitable psionic class (for additional monstrous combat abilities). That would make you pretty damn monstrous and give you no less than 4 primary natural attacks (2 x claw, bite and gore) as early as level 2.

[JusticeZero]

Some of them, yes.
As an aside, neither of the classes I mentioned (Soulknife, Aegis) actually have any psionic manifesting ability on their basic chassis. They're about as "psionic" as a barbarian or monk is "magical". So asking whether there are psionic powers to do those things is actually a tangent.
There are a few to do things like that, though, if you wanted to build an Egoist or Wilder instead. Or a Fear in Flesh Dread, or a Psionic Warrior which has a natural weaponry build too. There's actually a pretty good selection of ways to turn into a ravening monster that eats people really. =)

[JusticeZero]

(starting with claws and maw) with two levels barb (for rage and Fiend Totem) and X levels suitable psionic class (for additional monstrous combat abilities). That would make you pretty damn monstrous and give you no less than 4 primary natural attacks (2 x claw, bite and gore) as early as level 2.
Two levels of Aberrant gives you 4 configuration points. You could use that for 4 tentacles, for instance, and if you have two claws and a bite already, that makes seven. After that you can start adding a stinger, spikes, extra arms.. They're pretty much designed to be able to pick up a big pile of d20's and dump them on a table, as regards natural attacks. Great DPS blasters with Multiattack and Hammer The Gap. Pick up a power stone of Expansion and graft it with an armor ability to be able to grow to Large size.
In the future some time, might be able to look at some of the Psicarnam stuff that's in development - that's in fairly early playtest though, last I saw.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The latter. He sees his character as a big monster-type thing that focuses completely on melee combat. So should I give him full BAB, as well as full Barbarian rage?
Full BAB and a larger HD, sure. Maybe a few bonus combat feats. Maybe not rage itself, but grant some rage powers, usable only when bonded to your eidolon.

[GhostwheelZ]

A synthesist is virtually always bonded to their eidolon...

[IronFist]

Check this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/adept-godling/archetypes/super-genius-games---adept-godling-archetypes/youxia) out. It might help.
Mind you, it's not the only archetype that uses packages, it's just one of them.
Oh, that is 3rd party.

[Spore]

I would've just given him a npc race with ECL and fighter/barbarian levels. Or if selfheal is a priority, maybe a half celestial warrior of light (paladin archetype)?

I wouldn't be okay with a self healing juggernaut without having to resort to spells as a fellow player in that party.

[upho]

Some of them, yes.
As an aside, neither of the classes I mentioned (Soulknife, Aegis) actually have any psionic manifesting ability on their basic chassis. They're about as "psionic" as a barbarian or monk is "magical". So asking whether there are psionic powers to do those things is actually a tangent. Cool. I guess that makes them even more suitable in this case.


Two levels of Aberrant gives you 4 configuration points. You could use that for 4 tentacles, for instance, and if you have two claws and a bite already, that makes seven. After that you can start adding a stinger, spikes, extra arms.. They're pretty much designed to be able to pick up a big pile of d20's and dump them on a table, as regards natural attacks. Great DPS blasters with Multiattack and Hammer The Gap. Pick up a power stone of Expansion and graft it with an armor ability to be able to grow to Large size.
In the future some time, might be able to look at some of the Psicarnam stuff that's in development - that's in fairly early playtest though, last I saw.Or why not be an aberrant with a two-level dip of barb for rage and gore, possible?

Anyway, seems that what this player is looking for can be done, and even be done very well, without any homebrew.

[upho]

A synthesist is virtually always bonded to their eidolon...Seems suitable then, since a barb is virtually always raging in combat. Which is when rage powers are beneficial.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Seems suitable then, since a barb is virtually always raging in combat. Which is when rage powers are beneficial.
Pretty much this. Besides, the archetype already has all the raw power you might need; the only thing missing is options.

Speaking of, another idea. You know those spells that grant temporary evolution points? Hand our a few of them as SLAs. That gives you a different way to grab extra options.

[nobodez]

I'd say the most import part of any Synthesist Summoner adjustment is to fix the Eidolon's Temp HP difficulties.

[grarrrg]

Speaking of, another idea. You know those spells that grant temporary evolution points? Hand our a few of them as SLAs. That gives you a different way to grab extra options.

Actually...
Since the Summon Monster SLA's don't work when the Eidolon is out, why not give him "options" as he levels.
He starts with 3+CHA uses of "special".
Every Odd level, or every 3rd level, or whatever, he gains an additional spell he can cast using his "pool of special".

At level 1 he can spend a use to cast any Cantrip on the Summoner List.
At level 3 he can spend a use to cast Rejuvenate Eidolon
At level 5 he gains Evolution Surge, Lesser
Level 7 is ...

This way he still has "the necessities", but doesn't have to keep track of spells.

[avr]

You might take a look at the Aegis psionic class from Dreamscarred Press. It's quite like a spell-less synthesist.

[Quiddle]

What about giving him something like alchemist's mutagen?