There's only one way out of this.. [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

factotum

2013-10-22, 01:57 AM

Tarquin doesn't *want* Elan to join him. Tarquin wants Elan to go off, be a proper hero, then come back and defeat him in a climactic battle. If all he wanted to do was for Elan to join him, I'm sure a simple "Join me and I'll let your friends go--maybe even help them defeat this second-rate villain they're chasing, what do you say?" would work.

Copperdragon

2013-10-22, 02:44 AM

factotum

2013-10-22, 06:40 AM

Not like that, it would be "Join me and we can rule the continent as father and son..."

And? He still hasn't shown the slightest desire for Elan to do any such thing, so I think my point stands.

Xelbiuj

2013-10-22, 07:05 AM

Haley and V can take Miron, V can lock him down with counterspell while Haley shoots him, as you can see he's no longer protected from arrows.

Laurin HAS to be just about out of pp.

Tarquin doesn't have his axe, Roy can always hold his own but with vampire Durkon there, I think the Order actually has the advantage.

juicycaboose

2013-10-22, 07:27 AM

Laurin HAS to be just about out of pp.

??? Laurin has at least 250pp/day, probably more like 300, i doubt she'd used much before the battle, and we've seen her use ~3 or 4 9th level powers and another that may be lower level. 9th level powers cost 17pp to use.

even if she had used 5 powers all boosted as high as she possibly can then each wouldn't cost more than 20pp meaning she'd still have at least 150 left

Olinser

2013-10-22, 07:43 AM

There's only one way out of this...

...

...

...

Dance off?

coineineagh

2013-10-22, 07:59 AM

There's only one way out of this...

...

...

...

Dance off?

Oh no he di'n't!

NerdyKris

2013-10-22, 08:37 AM

..which is Elan leaving the Order for his dad. I don't see any other way out, fighting at least seems way too futile in this state.

Discuss!

Really? You really don't see any way out of this besides Elan leaving the Order? Why does fighting seem "way too futile"? Because Haley didn't one shot three high level characters?

People seem way to ready to claim Miron, Laurin, and Tarquin to be all powerful gods. They aren't. The Order might be able to beat them with proper tactics and teamwork. Not Haley shooting at them alone while the others run.

truemane

2013-10-22, 08:43 AM

I think we're being set up for a big plot change. I'm not going to try and say what I think it is, because the Giant is really good at not doing things I think he's going to do.

But the Order is almost out of resources. They're at the tail end of a really, really rough day and, whether or not they could defeat Tarquin, Inc at full strength, they're nowhere near full strength.

They needed to commandeer a freaking DINOSAUR to get out of the last pickle.

This one? I don't think it'll be solved by fighting. It will be solved by narrative.

And Elan leaving? That's totally one way it could go. Or someone dying. Someone we like.

But it'll be a game-changer, I think.

Gift Jeraff

2013-10-22, 09:03 AM

Haley has the right idea. Focus on one of the two squishy ones until they drop, causing the surviving one to retreat (with or without Tarquin) or act irrationally, which may in turn cause Tarquin to do something irrational. Take advantage of that to kill the other squishy one, then snipe Kilkil (Haley knows he can use scrolls), leaving Tarquin stranded with a bunch of soldiers angry that they were sent to their deaths.

martianmister

2013-10-22, 10:29 AM

Jay R

2013-10-22, 10:30 AM

They needed to commandeer a freaking DINOSAUR to get out of the last pickle.

Well, there's one available here.

Muenster Man

2013-10-22, 10:33 AM

What?vfdvsdfcvfdscv

I think the idea was to take out Kilkil if he shows up, leaving Tarquin with no access to spellcasting.

... I think

Gift Jeraff

2013-10-22, 11:08 AM

I think the idea was to take out Kilkil if he shows up, leaving Tarquin with no access to spellcasting.

... I think

Yeah, pretty much. Laurin, Miron, and Kilkil all have less HP than Tarquin and have access to magic. Kill them all and Tarquin could be trapped.

Now some might say "B-b-but Tarquin is so awesome and has a contingency for everything, surely he has ways to teleport!!" and to that I would say, yeah Tarquin did have six people capable of using spells/scrolls, but so far he has gotten half of them killed because he was stupid enough to leave Nale and Malack together. :furious:

martianmister

2013-10-22, 11:21 AM

But Kilkil isn't even there...

NerdyKris

2013-10-22, 11:30 AM

Yeah, pretty much. Laurin, Miron, and Kilkil all have less HP than Tarquin and have access to magic. Kill them all and Tarquin could be trapped.

Now some might say "B-b-but Tarquin is so awesome and has a contingency for everything, surely he has ways to teleport!!" and to that I would say, yeah Tarquin did have six people capable of using spells/scrolls, but so far he has gotten half of them killed because he was stupid enough to leave Nale and Malack together. :furious:

I wouldn't really call that "stupid". Misjudging Nale, yes. But not stupid. And how could he have possibly forseen that the gate would blow up, leaving Malack in the sunlight, distracted long enough for Nale to throw his staff a good distance (impossible inside the pyramid), forcing Durkon to run away and not be able to help, AND take that moment to try to kill Malack?

Obvious answer: He didn't. Tarquin isn't omniscient. He plans for very specific things, but if you do something he wasn't expecting, he tends to be caught off guard. There was no reason for him to believe Malack would be in the position he ended up in when he left with KilKil.

F.Harr

2013-10-22, 12:01 PM

There's only one way out of this...

...

...

...

Dance off?

I like it, I like it. But it doesn't fit the melieu. How about, I don't know. . . I don't KNOW! AAAAAAAAA! Elan, we need your plan NOW!

O.K., ready for next week's episode!

Haldir

2013-10-22, 01:56 PM

The last time Tarquin and Roy fought, Roy thought he was fighting Thog. It is very possible that with accurate information Roy can go toe-to-toe with Tarquin long enough to leverage his superior numbers.

Jay R

2013-10-22, 02:26 PM

In any situation this fluid, it's simply not true that "There's only one way out of this".

CoffeeIncluded

2013-10-23, 08:01 AM

If they hold out to sunset, Durkon gets his spells back. And it looks like it's almost sundown. Team Tarquin has little to no access to healing. And who knows what else is in that staff?

AutomatedTeller

2013-10-23, 08:16 AM

There's a variety of ways out of this:

Fight to the point where Laruin and what'shis name say 'screw this'
Elan takes control of the party.
Roy fakes letting Elan take control of the party.
Elan's plan comes to fruition.
Ian Starshine shows up and tips the balance.
Belkar gets control of the triceratops (probably not, since it's an herbivore)

and that's just what I can think of.

Elan could join his dad, i suppose. Not quite sure what that would mean to the party, but it could happen.

Kareasint

2013-10-23, 09:51 AM

??? Laurin has at least 250pp/day, probably more like 300, i doubt she'd used much before the battle, and we've seen her use ~3 or 4 9th level powers and another that may be lower level. 9th level powers cost 17pp to use.

even if she had used 5 powers all boosted as high as she possibly can then each wouldn't cost more than 20pp meaning she'd still have at least 150 left

It gets worse. I figure that Laurin is at least 20th level. So, the real question is:

What is her Intelligence (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/index.htm#abilitiesAndManifesters) score? She is bound to have more points than we are guessing at the moment.

And that pretty little headband might be more than meets the eye. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/psicrowns.htm)

Olinser

2013-10-23, 10:55 AM

It gets worse. I figure that Laurin is at least 20th level. So, the real question is:

What is her Intelligence (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/index.htm#abilitiesAndManifesters) score? She is bound to have more points than we are guessing at the moment.

And that pretty little headband might be more than meets the eye. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/psicrowns.htm)

20th level Psion has 343 PP. Psion's do not get extra PP after 20th level, so that 343 is her max base PP, regardless of level. (if she's 18th she only has 280)

At level 20 she basically gets 10 PP per ability modifier. So if she's at 22 Int (+6), she gets 60 PP. So basically every 2 points of Intelligence she gets 10 PP.

Even if we give her a sky-high Intelligence of 28, her PP pool is 433 (343+90).

So far, on panel, she has burned no less than NINE of those Gate portals (one of them significantly bigger than the others for the army). While it isn't a specific Psi spell, it is fairly similar to Psionic Teleportation Circle, which costs 17.

Reasonably it costs 15-20 a cast, so she's burned somewhere between 135-180 on JUST those Gates.

Add in the 11 PP for the Disintegrate she used on Nale, probably about 10 or so for the shot she used on Haley, and maybe a couple for reading Nale's mind (probably Read Thoughts, only 3 PP), and she's burned between 160-210 PP already, depending on the cost of that Gate spell.

That is a LOT of PP to be throwing around in such a short time. That's probably about half of her pool, maybe more.

If this drags on much longer Laurin is going to run dry quickly.

AstralFire

2013-10-23, 10:57 AM

Don't forget, she may have burned other resources to get the army together, as well.

TriForce

2013-10-23, 12:11 PM

20th level Psion has 343 PP. Psion's do not get extra PP after 20th level, so that 343 is her max base PP, regardless of level. (if she's 18th she only has 280)

At level 20 she basically gets 10 PP per ability modifier. So if she's at 22 Int (+6), she gets 60 PP. So basically every 2 points of Intelligence she gets 10 PP.

Even if we give her a sky-high Intelligence of 28, her PP pool is 433 (343+90).

So far, on panel, she has burned no less than NINE of those Gate portals (one of them significantly bigger than the others for the army). While it isn't a specific Psi spell, it is fairly similar to Psionic Teleportation Circle, which costs 17.

Reasonably it costs 15-20 a cast, so she's burned somewhere between 135-180 on JUST those Gates.

Add in the 11 PP for the Disintegrate she used on Nale, probably about 10 or so for the shot she used on Haley, and maybe a couple for reading Nale's mind (probably Read Thoughts, only 3 PP), and she's burned between 160-210 PP already, depending on the cost of that Gate spell.

That is a LOT of PP to be throwing around in such a short time. That's probably about half of her pool, maybe more.

If this drags on much longer Laurin is going to run dry quickly.

also, i think people are estimating team T to be way too powerful, lets just say lvl 18 max for each of em

F.Harr

2013-10-23, 12:13 PM

You know, psions are starting to seem very interesting.

MtlGuy

2013-10-23, 12:26 PM

Or, perhaps Elan convinces his father that there's value in being part of an ensemble of heroes rather than trying to stand out as the star. Or someone speaks up for Elan's accomplishments.

Olinser

2013-10-23, 12:33 PM

also, i think people are estimating team T to be way too powerful, lets just say lvl 18 max for each of em

Any estimate over about 18-20 usually involves them claiming that Malack has a +10 LA (8 from being a vampire and 2 from being a lizardfolk), and that the rest of the party HAS to match Malack's ECL.

Never mind the actually usefulness of having a level 12 cleric traveling with a party of 20+ level characters is laughable, whatever his LA.

So far Miron's only spell has been 5th level (Baleful Polymorph), and Laurin's spells have been 6th level (Disintegrate) and indeterminate - although the Gate is almost certainly 8th or 9th level, given that both Gate and Psionic Teleportation Circle are 9th level.

Olinser

2013-10-23, 12:42 PM

You know, psions are starting to seem very interesting.

Psions have always been very interesting.

The problem is that without a savvy DM, a Psion can very quickly trivialize any part of a campaign that doesn't involve direct fighting - and their system of PP rather than spell levels leaves them VERY open to abuse of high-level powers.

They can cast any spell they know at any time, like a Sorcerer. However, a Sorcerer can only cast at absolute most 6 spells of any spell level (unless they have some item, of course), with an Int bonus of probably only 1 or 2 extra spells per level unless they get over 30 Int.

A Psion can cast any spell they have the PP for. At 20th level with most likely about 400 PP, they could cast 20-30 9th level spells.

Add that in that they can just read the mind of anybody they encounter to find out their intentions tends to eliminate any doubt about somebody's thoughts and objectives - and 'Well you can't read their mind because of X' gets old pretty fast.

F.Harr

2013-10-23, 01:15 PM

Psions have always been very interesting.

The problem is that without a savvy DM, a Psion can very quickly trivialize any part of a campaign that doesn't involve direct fighting - and their system of PP rather than spell levels leaves them VERY open to abuse of high-level powers.

They can cast any spell they know at any time, like a Sorcerer. However, a Sorcerer can only cast at absolute most 6 spells of any spell level (unless they have some item, of course), with an Int bonus of probably only 1 or 2 extra spells per level unless they get over 30 Int.

A Psion can cast any spell they have the PP for. At 20th level with most likely about 400 PP, they could cast 20-30 9th level spells.

Add that in that they can just read the mind of anybody they encounter to find out their intentions tends to eliminate any doubt about somebody's thoughts and objectives - and 'Well you can't read their mind because of X' gets old pretty fast.

Well, that's disapointing.

AstralFire

2013-10-23, 02:17 PM

Well, that's disapointing.

It's also not what matches my experience. Psions present the most challenges when they're not sufficiently challenged - by which I mean, they blow through their resources very quick. The benefit for a psion versus a wizard is that it takes much less thought and planning in the character build process to learn how to break a single encounter. But they can be exhausted for the day versus an optimized wizard much faster.

If you regularly run much fewer than the recommended encounters per day, though, I suggest reducing Power Points by half and granting a quarter of what you took away on a per encounter basis, to a maximum of half. Or place some other per encounter limit on raw power point burn.

goodyarn

2013-10-23, 07:02 PM

Here are the options I see:

(1) OOTS wins the battle. Unlikely, but not impossible. I think Roy is a better strategist than Tarquin. If the sun goes down and Durkon gets his spells back, that could be a game changer.

(2) OOTS escapes. This would mean first focusing on incapacitating Laurin and then making a break for it.

(3) Roy escapes. Remember what Tarquin really wants here is to kill Roy. I don't see Roy fleeing willingly, but really all it would take is for V or Haley to scoop up Roy in her arms and fly away (in the rift?). And then Tarquin has failed in his objective.

(4) OOTS explains to Miron and Laurin that they are trying to save the world. When Tarquin confirms this, they stop fighting and lose some more respect for Tarquin.

(5) Tarquin is tricked into thinking he killed Roy when he didn't. It's easy to forget, but Elan turned a corner a while back and learned from V how to cast illusions that weren't just sexy distractions. He knows exactly what Tarquin wants to see. He could give it to him.

(6) Elan fakes his own death. Illusions. Enchantments. Stuff. Why would Tarquin keep fighting then?

But I doubt any of these is what really happens. I think the Giant has something better planned.

Cerussite

2013-10-23, 07:07 PM

V polymorphs Elan into a giant eagle and they fly into the horizon and they can't dispel it without killing Elan through the fall?

AstralFire

2013-10-23, 07:17 PM

V polymorphs Elan into a giant eagle and they fly into the horizon and they can't dispel it without killing Elan through the fall?

It's been a long time, but I believe falling only does 20d6 damage at most. A fresh Elan should be quite fine. When Roy died to the fall, he was already severely injured before Xykon hit him with (most likely) 32d6 damage.

JSSheridan

2013-10-23, 07:33 PM

Both sides go to a big cocktail party. Last man standing wins the battle.

cfalcon

2013-10-23, 08:06 PM

Elan could threaten to negate his plan, or otherwise destroy himself. Tarquin ended Nale without a thought, but Elan is a good guy and will willingly sacrifice himself (and maybe even bluff about being willing to let the world end).

Obviously, only if they lose in battle but... that seems extraordinarily likely, given the power level delta.

orrion

2013-10-23, 08:29 PM

coineineagh

2013-10-24, 02:35 AM

Tarquin's buddies are strong, but not untouchable.
In theory they're stronger, have better equipment, magic, and probably melee.

But Haley already punched holes in Miron. If Tarquin gets careless, his team might actually lose the battle. And he's way too emotionally involved with Elan. He can't fight him, his allies can't hurt him, and he might even break down in defeat if he sees his son get hurt.

If I were Roy, I'd tell Elan to do a kage-bunshin-no-jutsu and create illusionary copies of Elan to confuse the casters. Tarquin would see the real one, but his mates would need constant instructions from him as to where the real Elan is, to avoid accidentally hurting him.

In the meantime, Elan could dance around in circles and pinprick Miron and Laurin with his Rapier. If the casters can't dispel the silent images, they're in trouble. Although Laurin could probably still locate the real Elan by reading his mind, so better to start with Miron:smallwink:

And like AutomatedTeller said, there's a chance Tarquin's buddies might still say "screw this", and decide that the whole excursion is too much effort for a simple favor. They're not unlike playground bullies: If you can hurt one of them badly enough, the rest will disperse without a fight.

rodneyAnonymous

2013-10-24, 02:44 AM

Any estimate over about 18-20 usually involves them claiming that Malack has a +10 LA (8 from being a vampire and 2 from being a lizardfolk), and that the rest of the party HAS to match Malack's ECL.

I think the rest if the party has to be below Malack's ECL, or he wouldn't have complained about not getting xp.

Kish

2013-10-24, 05:58 AM

I think the rest if the party has to be below Malack's ECL, or he wouldn't have complained about not getting xp.
Not if the substance of his complaint was, "There are few challenges worth XP once you're epic," or even, "When I'm on my own, anything with a high enough CR to give me XP is way too dangerous because of my overvalued level adjustment."

Silverionmox

2013-10-24, 06:03 AM

Elan using illusions to make everyone else look like Elan :D That would take two people out of the fight.

Trillium

2013-10-24, 06:33 AM

Elan using illusions to make everyone else look like Elan :D That would take two people out of the fight.

Tarquin just points his finger at the real Elan, and Laurin with Miron annihilate everyoen else?

CombatOwl

2013-10-24, 06:40 AM

..which is Elan leaving the Order for his dad. I don't see any other way out, fighting at least seems way too futile in this state.

Discuss!

Or Roy gives (temporary) leadership of the Order to Elan.

The problem is that without a savvy DM, a Psion can very quickly trivialize any part of a campaign that doesn't involve direct fighting - and their system of PP rather than spell levels leaves them VERY open to abuse of high-level powers.

They can cast any spell they know at any time, like a Sorcerer. However, a Sorcerer can only cast at absolute most 6 spells of any spell level (unless they have some item, of course), with an Int bonus of probably only 1 or 2 extra spells per level unless they get over 30 Int.

A Psion can cast any spell they have the PP for. At 20th level with most likely about 400 PP, they could cast 20-30 9th level spells.

"Could Cast Except They'll Die First." It's about action economy, not the amount of juice you never use because you ran out of hit points. I can't see an exchange between a high level sorcerer and high level psion lasting more than 6 rounds unless they just spend a few rounds trying to evade each other. And unless that psion is an egoist, I'd put my bet on the sorcerer.

Sorcerers can maintain a lot of spell volume if required. They just won't be resorting to 9th level spells, instead putting out any essential 9th level spells and using the remainder as extra slots for metamagiced 7th and 6th level spells.

To be honest, most psions are pretty easy to manage with arcane spellcasters. It's not like psions and sorcerers can't both play rocket tag if required. In many ways, a fight between a psion and a sorcerer boils down to who wins initiative.

Cerussite

2013-10-24, 07:53 AM

It's been a long time, but I believe falling only does 20d6 damage at most. A fresh Elan should be quite fine. When Roy died to the fall, he was already severely injured before Xykon hit him with (most likely) 32d6 damage.
Bards have d6 hit dice, and Elan's level 15~ish with average con IIRC. A ~50% chance of killing him is not something his father would want to go through.

Sir_Leorik

2013-10-24, 10:25 AM

The only way to resolve this is with......

a pie eating contest! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0561.html) :smalltongue:

factotum

2013-10-24, 10:38 AM

Or Roy gives (temporary) leadership of the Order to Elan.

I suspect Tarquin would see through a trick like that--it would still be safer in his eyes to kill Roy, rather than assume he's going to keep his promise to make Elan the leader.

zimmerwald1915

2013-10-24, 10:51 AM

This one? I don't think it'll be solved by fighting. It will be solved by narrative.
People keep saying this, and every time I have to wonder whether "solved by narrative" means anything.

Kish

2013-10-24, 11:09 AM

People keep saying this, and every time I have to wonder whether "solved by narrative" means anything.
It means the way the Order dealt with the guardbeast outside the Dungeon of Dorukan.

Fish

2013-10-24, 11:32 AM

Of course "solved by narrative" means something, because the characters are not mindless statted-out battle tanks being driven into a murder-bot arena to roll dice at each other. They present as people with dreams and goals and fears. They fight not because they are built to, but because...

Rule #1 of this fight is "Tarquin wants Elan to be the big hero." Everything proceeds from that. Because of Rule #1, Tarquin wants to kill the rest of Elan's team. If Elan proves that he is the big hero, the fight is over.

Miron only fights because Rule #1 (Tarquin called in a favor). Laurin only fights because Rule #1 (Tarquin promised a favor). The Order fights because Rule #1.

The Order don't need anything from Tarquin, or want anything; he isn't otherwise obstructing them except for Rule #1; he doesn't oppose their mission; he isn't allied with Xykon. His allies are mercenary and indifferent. Sweep the knees of Rule #1 and the fight stops. "Solved by narrative" means more in this fight than arguably any previous fight.

For my money,
Small, wiry bounty hunter with big, monstrous bounty hunter, flying from the sky with the assist. Lighting bolt breath. "You're all clear, kid, now blow this thing and let's go home!"

F.Harr

2013-10-24, 11:36 AM

Not bad. I like it.

zimmerwald1915

2013-10-24, 12:21 PM

Of course "solved by narrative" means something, because the characters are not mindless statted-out battle tanks being driven into a murder-bot arena to roll dice at each other.
Who said they were? But characters pitting their "goals, dreams and fears" against one another is something the characters do, it is not something the narrative does. Whether they do this pitting by swinging swords or slinging spells or swapping speeches makes no fundamental difference, so I see no reason to call only the last "the narrative solving the problem."

Think about this in terms of verbs. Characters do things, to each other, to themselves, to the world around them. Their actions can be anything. The narrative, however, is only ever something that happens. The only way I can make sense of the phrase "solved by narrative" is to say it means "solved without a character's intervention or prompting." A "solution by narrative" can only be a deus ex machina.

If people want to say "the Order cannot save themselves through combat, but must talk Tarquin down, or trick him, or be saved by someone else," then they can say that, and we can debate it. If people want to say "the Order can only be saved through a deus ex machina," then they can say that, and we can debate it. But saying that the Order must be "saved by narrative" is too imprecise to base any kind of discussion on.

Fish

2013-10-24, 01:13 PM

I obviously do not interpret "solved by narrative" in this case as only deus ex machina.

If you re-read Truemane's post, the implication is clear. The story is loosely based on D&D construction; therefore, there is "solved through combat superiority," which I take to mean a probabilistic analysis of their chances, or solution through non-combat means, viz, narrative.

Kish

2013-10-24, 01:26 PM

If you re-read Truemane's post, the implication is clear.
And if you reread Zimmer's post, the implication is pretty clear too: that "solved by narrative" is a poor way to express "solved by some non-combat means."

I tend to agree. It's like saying "it will happen because it will happen." For that matter, the combats are still narrative; I'm prepared to bet a great deal that Rich has never in his life rolled dice to decide who would win a fight in OotS.

Fish

2013-10-24, 01:30 PM

Had the phrase been used in isolation, shorn of context, I would agree.

But it was not. In context, there is no ambiguity.

I do not see how the post could be read, "It can't be solved by combat, therefore it must be deus ex machina."

zimmerwald1915

2013-10-24, 01:30 PM

If you re-read Truemane's post, the implication is clear. The story is loosely based on D&D construction; therefore, there is "solved through combat superiority," which I take to mean a probabilistic analysis of their chances, or solution through non-combat means, viz, narrative.
And what I'm saying is that that implication doesn't make sense. The Order saving themselves through talking Tarquin down or tricking him still amounts to the Order saving themselves using their skills (at reading Tarquin's motives) and capabilities (of taking advantages of his team's lack of motivation or the flaws in his own motivation). There is no fundamental difference between the Order doing this and the Order beating Tarquin's team in combat. In both cases it is the Order acting upon Tarquin for their own benefit and to his detriment. The only difference is the verb, not the actor.

For the Order to be saved "by the narrative", I argue, the actor must change from the characters already present to either a) some other group of characters that we have no reason to believe should be in a position to intervene (characters like this are Ian and Geoff, but are not, say, Ganjii and Enor or Aarindarius) or b) a deus ex machina.

Basically, if people want to argue that the Order can only save themselves through non-combat means, I would like it if people actually said that. Is that too much to ask?

EDIT: ninja'd by Kish. The question is, can Kish read my mind, or was my post just clear? Personally, I think it more likely that Kish can read my mind.

Fish

2013-10-24, 01:36 PM

Then your confusion is of your own making. You read "combat" and interpret it as "combat or non-combat," and wonder why it's unclear. Sorry, I can't help with that.

zimmerwald1915

2013-10-24, 01:46 PM

Then your confusion is of your own making. You read "combat" and interpret it as "combat or non-combat," and wonder why it's unclear. Sorry, I can't help with that.
It's not on me to make clarity out of muddled prose. It's on the poster to say what they mean if they don't want to be misunderstood.

AstralFire

2013-10-24, 01:46 PM

'm inclined to agree with Fish and Zimmer both: it's a poor turn of phrase out of context, but in context, I thought the definition was clear.

Sir_Leorik

2013-10-24, 03:13 PM

It means the way the Order dealt with the guardbeast outside the Dungeon of Dorukan.

That was solved by using the narrator not using the narrative. :smallwink:

hagnat

2013-10-24, 03:22 PM

That was solved by using the narrator not using the narrative. :smallwink:

i wish this was facebook, so i could like your comment

Sir_Leorik

2013-10-24, 03:24 PM

i wish this was facebook, so i could like your comment

Thank you, thank you! :smallbiggrin:

Person_Man

2013-10-24, 03:32 PM

V takes out triceritops with a spell. (Preferably an area of effect, so the rest of team Tarquin gets roughed up a bit).

Roy gets close to scarf wizard guy. Roy has Mageslayer and can Trip. Scarf wizard guy can't cast as long as Roy stays close to him. (Though it's possible he has some sort of workaround that lets him escape).

Elan stands between Roy and his father, and holds off his father for a few rounds. He can't beat him, but he doesn't need to. His father has shown that he does not want to kill him.

Everyone else gangs up on psion girl. If they work together, Durkula, Haley, and Belkar should be able to take her down in 1 round, or at least force her to get scared and announce to Tarquin that she's wormholing out, and he has one chance to come with her or be left here. Scarf wizard guy realizes he can't cast with Roy around and declares he's leaving too. Tarquin concedes defeat and goes.

On the flip side, most of of OotS is near death. Rich has an excuse to kill anyone he he wants, and/or to have team Tarquin succeed and kill everyone but Elan and Haley. Which would also be a pretty cool story. I hate it when writers basically make characters immortal because they've become popular and/or the writer just loves the character too much.

Jay R

2013-10-25, 08:35 AM

People keep saying this, and every time I have to wonder whether "solved by narrative" means anything.

It's used to imply that the author's understanding and solution to the situation is inherently inferior to the speaker's clever idea.

They're in a story. Technically, everything they do counts as narrative.

Storm_Of_Snow

2013-10-25, 09:07 AM

Tarquin doesn't *want* Elan to join him. Tarquin wants Elan to go off, be a proper hero, then come back and defeat him in a climactic battle.
No, Tarquin wants to live like a god for the rest of his natural life, plus I would guess anything he can do to extend that as much as possible.

Elan's his fallback plan, of dying in an epic fight which turns him into a legend. He's already said he won't throw the fight, Elan will have to work for the victory, and he's also proved willing to kill his own progeny - so he's not really going to be all that bothered if he does kill Elan, in fact, it'd probably help him tell an even better story.

What I'm kind of puzzling over is why Tarquin's trying to force the issue, pushing Elan now, rather than letting him go off on "Greenhilt's sub-quest", then, when that's done, making sure Elan does form his own party and try to topple Tarquin.

I agree with Person_Man, Elan has to face off against Tarquin now for the order to stand any chance. Roy can potentially shut down Miron, which leaves Laurin - and I still think the best way to shut her down is...

:haley: Icy burst sneak attack, Bitch!

Either that, or Durkon drains her, vamps her with the staff, and coincidentally solves their transport problems to the last gate.

AstralFire

2013-10-25, 09:24 AM

What I'm kind of puzzling over is why Tarquin's trying to force the issue, pushing Elan now, rather than letting him go off on "Greenhilt's sub-quest", then, when that's done, making sure Elan does form his own party and try to topple Tarquin.

Two theories:
1) Because Tarquin is neither wholly rational nor wholly selfish, just dominantly. He wasn't firm enough with the son he raised, and well, that whole venture just went to bits, with Tarquin's best friend and most valuable humanoid resource gone. He wants to see his son do well, and if he has to force the issue to make sure that his son does well, he will.

2) If Elan's the hero who saves the world, then coming back to defeat Tarquin last makes Tarquin the final boss. If Elan's merely a hero who helps to save the world, coming back to defeat Tarquin last makes Elan (and by extension, Tarquin) more of an interesting but narratively cumbersome appendix, like the Scouring of the Shire after Sauron.

I don't believe these are necessarily competing so much as complementing theories.

Kish

2013-10-25, 09:27 AM

What I'm kind of puzzling over is why Tarquin's trying to force the issue, pushing Elan now, rather than letting him go off on "Greenhilt's sub-quest", then, when that's done, making sure Elan does form his own party and try to topple Tarquin.
How would he do that? Oh, he's probably done enough already to make Elan want to come back after him. The thing is, he's also done enough to make Roy want to come back after him. Elan mowing down sub-boss Zyklon and coming back for a dramatic confrontation with his father is one thing; Roy Greenhilt mowing down sub-boss Zyklon with help from his team, including supporting character Elan, and then coming back to annihilate the villain who, for minor angst issues, happens to be the father of one of his supporting characters, is a much worse story, and one that (based on my knowledge of the narrative conventions Tarquin is obsessed with) might well end in Elan sacrificing himself to defeat Tarquin and Elan's name being largely forgotten a chapter later.

(While this should be clear from the term "sub-boss Zyklon," just to avoid annoying tangents, let me spell out that I am not saying any of this is going to happen; I'm nearly positive Tarquin will die before Xykon or never die onstage at all, and the Order is much more of an ensemble cast than someone as self-obsessed as Tarquin is capable of understanding.)

Sir_Leorik

2013-10-25, 01:40 PM

It's used to imply that the author's understanding and solution to the situation is inherently inferior to the speaker's clever idea.

They're in a story. Technically, everything they do counts as narrative.

:elan: "I'm in a narrative!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0206.html)

AKA_Bait

2013-10-25, 01:50 PM

No, Tarquin wants to live like a god for the rest of his natural life, plus I would guess anything he can do to extend that as much as possible.

I must disagree. Tarquin had discussed his posthumous legacy with Malack. He was clearly aware that his mortal coil will get shuffled off. Thus some options, like becoming various forms of undead etc., are off the table.