Pathfinder "Race Points"

[Harbinger]

I'm trying to make a character for a Pathfinder game, and I want to be a kobold. I checked to see if it's stats in PF were any different from what I was used to in 3.5. Instead of the normal LA +0 that I'm used to seeing, I see something that says "Race Points 5". Race points? What are Race points? I looked it up and there's nothing that really explains what they are. Does this mean I can't be a kobold in PF? And the hobgoblin and sylph both have "Race points" similar or equal to humans or dwarves. Does this mean I can be one of them with no LA? I really don't understand Pathfinder at all.

[starwoof]

The race points in pathfinder are for GMs making their own races. A standard PHB race has 9-10 race points. Kobolds only have 5 because they are "weak" using the pathfinder race creating system.

Hobgoblins and sylph are both intended to be used alongside the other races. Pathfinder doesn't have LA, but the race points system lets a player get a general idea of how strong they are. You should be good to go as long as your GM doesn't have a problem with it.

EDIT: You can find a better explanation for race points here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/creating-new-races).

[Saidoro]

Race points are a hideously miscalibrated unit of measuring how powerful a player race is, with an intended application of helping DMs make their own races. In theory, a race with abilites worth a total of 10 race points is about as powerful as a player race is supposed to be. This is not true in practice. You can just ignore them if you want, you're free to play a kobold or any other listed player race so long as your DM hasn't decided to ban them.

[AttilaTheGeek]

Race points are a hideously miscalibrated unit of measuring how powerful a player race is, with an intended application of helping DMs make their own races. In theory, a race with abilites worth a total of 10 race points is about as powerful as a player race is supposed to be. This is not true in practice. You can just ignore them if you want, you're free to play a kobold or any other listed player race so long as your DM hasn't decided to ban them.

I wouldn't call them hideously miscalculated. They do roughly correspond to power, so you know a 10 RP race is probably stronger than a 5. However, that's as accurate as it gets; you can't say one race is weaker than another just because one race has 11 and another has 12.

[Harbinger]

Why do hobgoblins have a nine though? They still seem a bit stronger than normal.

[Hunter Noventa]

Why do hobgoblins have a nine though? They still seem a bit stronger than normal.

You can see an exact breakdown of how some races are built here (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedRaceGuide/raceBuilder.html), specifically the examples at the end of the page.

[AttilaTheGeek]

You can see an exact breakdown of how some races are built here (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedRaceGuide/raceBuilder.html), specifically the examples at the end of the page.

If you do let players use the race builder to build or customize races, I recommend strongly enforcing an optimization limit similar to the preexisting races. You can get things as crazy as a +2 racial bonus to all saves for 3 RP or Sr 11+HD for some other low number I don't remember. Either way, I just wanted to point out that as cool as the race builder is, it's possible to make very powerful races for a deceptively small RP cost.

[Saidoro]

I wouldn't call them hideously miscalculated. They do roughly correspond to power, so you know a 10 RP race is probably stronger than a 5. However, that's as accurate as it gets; you can't say one race is weaker than another just because one race has 11 and another has 12.
Miscalibrated, not miscalculated. I'm saying that by and large the values are not set in such a way as will return correct results. If you need to set an "optimization limit" the various options are not balanced against one another.

[OverdrivePrime]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who was confused by Race Points. Thanks guys!

[Craft (Cheese)]

If you do let players use the race builder to build or customize races, I recommend strongly enforcing an optimization limit similar to the preexisting races. You can get things as crazy as a +2 racial bonus to all saves for 3 RP or Sr 11+HD for some other low number I don't remember. Either way, I just wanted to point out that as cool as the race builder is, it's possible to make very powerful races for a deceptively small RP cost.

The RP prices are generally really whacky: Everything seems to be either massively overpriced or massively underpriced, and if I were to try to re-price everything I wouldn't even know where to begin! It's almost as if the system was never even playtested (apparently the prices were even worse during the playtest!!).


Exalted Resistance (3 RP)

Prerequisites: Outsider (native) with ties to Elysium, Heaven, or Nirvana.
Benefit: Members of this race gain spell resistance equal to 6 + their character level against spells and spell-like abilities with the [evil] descriptor, as well as any spells and spell-like abilities cast by evil outsiders.

Spell Resistance, Greater (3 RP)

Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: Members of this race gain spell resistance equal to 11 + their character level.

Spell Resistance, Lesser (2 RP)

Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: Members of this race gain spell resistance equal to 6 + their character level.

???


Ancient Foe (3 RP)

Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: Choose one monster type or one subtype of the humanoid type. Members of this race gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC against monsters of that type and a +2 racial bonus on combat maneuver checks made to grapple creatures of that type.

Battle-Hardened (4 RP)

Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: Members of this race gain a +1 bonus to CMD.

Stability (1 RP)

Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: Members of this race receive a +4 racial bonus to their CMD when resisting bull rush or trip attempts while standing on the ground.

?????

[Hunter Noventa]

The RP prices are generally really whacky: Everything seems to be either massively overpriced or massively underpriced, and if I were to try to re-price everything I wouldn't even know where to begin! It's almost as if the system was never even playtested (apparently the prices were even worse during the playtest!!).

Wow, I've never really looked at it that in-depth but...just...wow those are...what were they smoking?

[Raimun]

You could build a Large race with insane Strength and Constitution and still have room for other nice stuff.

... And you'd still get full class levels. Meaning lots of Feats/Class Features and in the case of Clerics, Druids and Oracles, full Caster Level progression.

You could also custom build a race to be a perfect Wizard, skill monkey or anything, instead of perfect beatstick.

Any DM should be careful to allow custom races.

[Karkos]

Race points are always going to be a source of contention, and rightfully so. As said in a previous post some things are going to be drastically undercosted or overcosted. Attaching numerical values to things always does that. Why do you think points values change regularly in Warhammer and 40K? Same principle.


As for kobolds...........my main grudge against them is they're supposed to miners. Miners are pretty damn hardy (dwarfs) yet they get -4 Str and -2 Con. Makes no sense at all! Most DM's play them like they're mentally challenged, but they have no modifier to Int or Wis. I would definitely remedy this.

If the Small size really bothers you, you could say the Golden Dragon that rules over Hermea first practiced on Kobolds a few centuries before starting his social experiment on humans. He bred Medium sized Kobolds with all golden scales like him.

[Craft (Cheese)]

The example races are also whacky. The Gathlain has Entangle as one of its SLAs, but you aren't allowed to take Entangle as a spell with the SLA feature (since it attacks a creature). The Ogre is also more expensive than it needs to be: You can build a version with superior stats for less RP. Here's the base Ogre:

Type: Humanoid (Giant) - 0 RP
Size: Large - 7 RP
Base Speed: Normal - 0 RP
Ability Score Modifiers: Paragon (+4 STR, -2 INT, -2 WIS, -2 CHA) - 1 RP
Languages: Xenophobic (Giant) - 0 RP
Ability Score Traits: Advanced Constitution (+2), Advanced Wisdom (+2) - 8 RP
Defense Traits: Natural Armor, Improved Natural Armor (+1) - 3 RP
Offense Traits: Reach - 1 RP
Senses Traits: Darkvision 60 ft., Low-Light Vision - 3 RP

Total 23 RP, with stat modifiers of +6 STR, +2 CON, -2 INT, -2 CHA.

With just a couple of changes:

Type: Humanoid (Giant) - 0 RP
Size: Large - 7 RP
Base Speed: Normal - 0 RP
Ability Score Modifiers: Specialized (+2 STR, +2 CON, -2 INT) - 1 RP
Languages: Xenophobic (Giant) - 0 RP
Ability Score Traits: Advanced Strength (+2) - 4 RP
Defense Traits: Natural Armor, Improved Natural Armor (+1) - 3 RP
Offense Traits: Reach - 1 RP
Senses Traits: Darkvision 60 ft., Low-Light Vision - 3 RP

Total 19 RP, with stat modifiers of +6 STR, +2 CON, -2 INT.

[Lord_Gareth]

Wow, I've never really looked at it that in-depth but...just...wow those are...what were they smoking?

You think this is bad, you should see SKR's feat points.

[Slipperychicken]

I once tried to build Argonians with the race builder, and it ended up pretty nicely since I already had the concept in mind and was trying to pick out strengths and weaknesses rather than gaming the system.


I would give you some advice, but paizo beat me to the punch:

A race is more than just a group of individuals with similar qualities and traits. A race is a collection of people with a shared history and cultural identity. While the race builder presents many options for creating new races, and it may be tempting to treat each section as a buffet of options to help you ferret out the most optimal choices for your character, it is generally more beneficial for your campaign world to conceptualize your race first. Before choosing options, consider answering some questions about your race and its culture. Answering these questions can aid you in making reasonable choices about the qualities and traits of your race so that it can better fit in the game world—rather than just being a collection of seemingly random options. Such questions might include the following

[Ravens_cry]

I'm not a fan, even if everything were somehow perfectly balanced, and this is impossible thanks to synergy and the combinational explosion.
At best, it might be useful as a way to rough out what you want the creature to do. It's like heromachine but for race creation. Sure, it's fun, it's easy, but it really isn't that custom.

[The Oni]

Really I love the concept of them, but looking at them, I can't help but feel they were written by a bunch of different designers...who didn't look at eachother's work at all before they threw 'em in the book.

[Ravens_cry]

Really I love the concept of them, but looking at them, I can't help but feel they were written by a bunch of different designers...who didn't look at eachother's work at all before they threw 'em in the book.
As much as I like Pathfinder, that's very probably true, at least to a degree.

[3WhiteFox3]

I once tried to build Argonians with the race builder, and it ended up pretty nicely since I already had the concept in mind and was trying to pick out strengths and weaknesses rather than gaming the system.


I would give you some advice, but paizo beat me to the punch:

Ouch, that's a really bad false dichotomy. Optimization and world-building are not exclusive. What if I want a large, strong race that players can pick, and that's my concept, I come up with societal traits and culture and I make the following race.


Earthkin

Large Humanoid (Giant) (7 RP)
Slow Speed (-1 RP)
+4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Dex - Flexible Ability Array + Large Mods (2 RP)
Languages - Standard: Common, Giant. Earthkin with high intelligence can select the following as bonus languages: Terran, Sylvan, Orc, Dwarven, Undercommon
Race Traits:

Reach - 10' (1 RP)
Static Bonus Feat - Power Attack (2 RP)

Total: 11 RP


For kicks and giggles I decided to try and actually make a reasonable, yet simple concept that a GM might actually try to make with a definite concept in mind but still be way stronger than most of the other races.

The Earthkin are simple, but not unintelligent larger than average humanoids that almost seem to have more in common with Earth Elementals than actual giants, they are generally not aggressive but are quite willing to attack when provoked. They are primarily Fighters and Barbarians, though other classes are not uncommon. They are quite adept and fending off even the most dangerous predators of the high mountainous areas where they hunt and live.
They know how to move around on the mountains and tend to create well-defended camps. They are willing to interact and trade with travelers going across treacherous mountain Paths and they occasionally offer to guide those who are willing to trade in exotic foods, jewelry, or other such luxuries.

They are fond of tests of strength and might, challenging one to a arm wrestling contest, rock breaking contest, brawl or other test of might is a common way to get into their good graces, as they are fun-loving folk, even if they can get carried away with their rambunctious behavior. They have rocky grey-ish skin, varied hair colors and eyes that tend towards brown, blue and grey, they are most notable for their large, muscular builds and that they are almost always covered in dirt, rarely bathe but at worst, smell of damp earth. They might appear to be a stone giant at first glance, but they tend to be less bulky and lither than their greater cousins, they are also somewhat more human shaped and while they seem somewhat sculpted, they have a sleekness that is similar to polished stone.

Many Earthkin believe that they were originally given birth by Fandarra, who bore them after sleeping in an enchanted cave for a millennium and as they were born covered them in the mud and dirt that covered the cave's floor, and that they were originally intended to be the farmers and helpers of the stone giants; serving Fandarra and highlighting her love of plants and knowledge. At some point in their history, they broke off with the stone giants (though the two races seem to be fairly indifferent towards each other) and became their own separate species, living lives in service to Fandarra and focusing on living their day to day lives enjoyably.



[The race builder rules] allow GMs, or even players with GM oversight, to create new races that are balanced and mesh with the core races.

This is the main problem, the rules don't work as they are stated to. My Earthkin make far better melee characters than any of the core races despite having a RP value that's not out of line with them. Nothing was randomly assigned (which is not what optimization means, despite what Paizo says in the quoted text) but rather created thanks to the initial concept. That's my issue with it, races created with it probably don't mesh well with the core races.

I agree with Ravens_cry, it's fun as an exercise, but as an balanced ruleset designed to seamlessly create races that work with the core races, it falls flat on it's face.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Ouch, that's a really bad false dichotomy. Optimization and world-building are not exclusive. What if I want a large, strong race that players can pick, and that's my concept, I come up with societal traits and culture and I make the following race.


Earthkin

Large Humanoid (Giant) (7 RP)
Slow Speed (-1 RP)
+4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Dex - Flexible Ability Array + Large Mods (2 RP)
Languages - Standard: Common, Giant. Earthkin with high intelligence can select the following as bonus languages: Terran, Sylvan, Orc, Dwarven, Undercommon
Race Traits:

Reach - 10' (1 RP)
Static Bonus Feat - Power Attack (2 RP)

Total: 11 RP


(Psst, this isn't actually legal. You can't use the Static Bonus Feat trait to get Power Attack, since it only allows feats with no requirements. Power Attack requires STR 13.)


I agree with Ravens_cry, it's fun as an exercise, but as an balanced ruleset designed to seamlessly create races that work with the core races, it falls flat on it's face.

I'd go so far as to recommend never allowing custom and pre-written races together in the same party, honestly. The system works best when everyone uses a custom race. Which is still a total failure of its stated design goal, but it's still a useful system, flawed as it is.

(Reading this thread is making me want to work on my homebrew rewrite of the race builder system again.)

[Ravens_cry]

Or . . .just make your own races from scratch as needed.
I don't even see a *point* to a race building book. Now, there is a fair bit of other stuff that is nice, like giving some more uncommon races the full Pathfinder write-up, like alternate race traits and favoured class bonuses, but as its main purpose, building your own race? Make your own, points be damned. Balance is balance, and points are points, and never (What never? Well, hardly ever) the twain shall meet.

[The Random NPC]

You think this is bad, you should see SKR's feat points.

To be fair, the idea is wonderful, it's just the implementation that's horrible.

[Bogardan_Mage]

As for kobolds...........my main grudge against them is they're supposed to miners. Miners are pretty damn hardy (dwarfs) yet they get -4 Str and -2 Con. Makes no sense at all! Most DM's play them like they're mentally challenged, but they have no modifier to Int or Wis. I would definitely remedy this.
I thought most DMs played them like they're tactical geniuses (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/)

[AttilaTheGeek]

Or . . .just make your own races from scratch as needed.
I don't even see a *point* to a race building book. Now, there is a fair bit of other stuff that is nice, like giving some more uncommon races the full Pathfinder write-up, like alternate race traits and favoured class bonuses, but as its main purpose, building your own race? Make your own, points be damned. Balance is balance, and points are points, and never (What never? Well, hardly ever) the twain shall meet.

I think race points are a good idea in theory. If done well, they could allow a new DM interested in creating their own races to evaluate a feature and see how powerful it is. It could, hypothetically, just lead to more balanced races all around. However, with the points as imbalanced as they are, it's almost worse than there not being a race builder at all.

[Andvare]

Rumour has it that the cost was adjusted to keep the main races close to ten points.

It certainly isn't balanced at all.

My advise would be to disregard the point cost completely, and design races according to powers and abilities instead.

[turbo164]

It's also harder to tweak small number like this. Maybe a bonus feat is too strong at 2 points, but too expensive at 3; if the base classes were 90-110 points instead of 9-11, then adjusting bonus feat to a value between 20 and 30 would be much easier.

[Slipperychicken]

This is the main problem, the rules don't work as they are stated to. My Earthkin make far better melee characters than any of the core races despite having a RP value that's not out of line with them.


You took Large and Reach for them, which are "advanced" traits, meaning that they are classified as an "advanced" race rather than a standard one. That puts them a power level above the core races.


There are three power levels: standard, advanced, and monstrous. Standard races can only take standard racial traits, while advanced races can take both standard and advanced racial traits, and monstrous races can take standard, advanced, and monstrous racial traits. Table: Racial Points and Trait Maximums by Power Level summarizes the number of RP you can spend as well as the maximum number of traits per racial trait category you can take based on your power level.

So the system, while unbalanced, does recognize that the Earthkin are indeed stronger than core races. Sadly, the race-builder doesn't really do anything with this revelation (like, say, implement Level Adjustment for "advanced" or "monstrous" races).

[3WhiteFox3]

(Psst, this isn't actually legal. You can't use the Static Bonus Feat trait to get Power Attack, since it only allows feats with no requirements. Power Attack requires STR 13.)

Oops, that's what I get for writing them up instead of sleeping. Just swap out Power Attack for Toughness. (or give them a stat array of +4 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Dex, -2 Cha and swap the Static Bonus Feat for a Flexible Feat; Now they have the human's biggest advantage too, but that's optimizing.)

The other issue I have with the system is arbitrary restrictions that don't really make much sense. The Race Builder is full of them. The Static Bonus Feat''s restriction makes enough sense (it does make the flexible feat much better though) but the pointless prerequisites, the limitation on which traits you can take and on how many of each category you can take seem unnecessary. I think the system would need a complete overhaul before it became something usable in a normal game.

[3WhiteFox3]

You took Large and Reach for them, which are "advanced" traits, meaning that they are classified as an "advanced" race rather than a standard one. That puts them a power level above the core races.



So the system, while unbalanced, does recognize that the Earthkin are indeed stronger than core races. Sadly, the race-builder doesn't really do anything with this revelation (like, say, implement Level Adjustment for "advanced" or "monstrous" races).

I can't find where Large is advanced, though. I did miss that reach required being advanced. I still think my point still mostly stands compare my race to the Aasimar, Tieflings or the other 'advanced' races, they still are far ahead of the curb when it comes to melee races.

In fact, Large is overpriced (though Reach is also underpriced) so if I tweaked my concept a little and focused more on just being the best melee beatsticks/tanks that I can, I think they might be even worse. I'd have to test that though.

[Lord_Gareth]

To be fair, the idea is wonderful, it's just the implementation that's horrible.

This is kinda a running theme for a lot of things Paizo does. Feat point system, race point system, called shots....

[Craft (Cheese)]

So the system, while unbalanced, does recognize that the Earthkin are indeed stronger than core races. Sadly, the race-builder doesn't really do anything with this revelation (like, say, implement Level Adjustment for "advanced" or "monstrous" races).

Actually, it sortof does: It gives guidelines on how to adjust the party's APL depending on the average RP cost of the various races in the party. The table can be found here (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedRaceGuide/raceBuilder.html), under "Challenging Advanced and Monstrous races."


I think race points are a good idea in theory. If done well, they could allow a new DM interested in creating their own races to evaluate a feature and see how powerful it is. It could, hypothetically, just lead to more balanced races all around. However, with the points as imbalanced as they are, it's almost worse than there not being a race builder at all.

I believe the value of the race builder is in setting a common set of expectations. When the DM says "Make 5th-level characters, all PF material allowed, no 3.5" they have reasonable expectations as to what abilities the party will have (and more importantly, WON'T have), and the players know what types of character builds will and won't be allowed.

Likewise, when the DM says "You can use the race builder if you want, but keep it under 10 RP", the DM knows what to expect and the players know what options are available to them.

Saying "Oh, you should just abandon the race builder and make up whatever abilities you want" is kind of like saying "You should abandon classes, levels, and feats and just make up characters with whatever abilities you want."

[Ravens_cry]

I think race points are a good idea in theory. If done well, they could allow a new DM interested in creating their own races to evaluate a feature and see how powerful it is. It could, hypothetically, just lead to more balanced races all around. However, with the points as imbalanced as they are, it's almost worse than there not being a race builder at all.
I don't think they are even workable in theory, thanks to the basic facts that traits can have unexpected synergies, and the sheer number of combinations of traits means you literally can not play test it all. For this particular run though, I think it was well to point out the lack of granularity also hinders its utility. There is a big difference between a 2 and 3 point cost when everything 'normal' is meant to add up to around 10.

[Fiery Diamond]

Saying "Oh, you should just abandon the race builder and make up whatever abilities you want" is kind of like saying "You should abandon classes, levels, and feats and just make up characters with whatever abilities you want."

Eh... it's more saying that "eyeballing it" isn't likely to be any more haphazard and unbalanced than using the RP system.

[Ravens_cry]

Saying "Oh, you should just abandon the race builder and make up whatever abilities you want" is kind of like saying "You should abandon classes, levels, and feats and just make up characters with whatever abilities you want."
To me, building races is a DM prerogative. No point system save is going to save you from having to consider "Hmm, is this something I want to include in this world? Does it have a place, or is it just got all the cool pluses I want?"
I would consider it more like making a new monster than creating a character.

[tasw]

Meh, the earthkin might be very good at stand up offence but their AC is 3 points worse then a humans while only getting 1 extra HP. Unless they kill with the first attack their probably mincemeat.

And with a slow speed combined with that crappy AC any enemy with mobility, or who just survives the AoO and has a missile weapon will chew them up and spit them out with no challenge at all. A slow movement speed is death against any halfway intelligently played opponent.

So they arent nearly as overpowered as they're being made out to be.

[3WhiteFox3]

[QUOTE=tasw;16278624]Meh, the earthkin might be very good at stand up offence but their AC is 3 points worse then a humans while only getting 1 extra HP. Unless they kill with the first attack their probably mincemeat.

And with a slow speed combined with that crappy AC any enemy with mobility, or who just survives the AoO and has a missile weapon will chew them up and spit them out with no challenge at all. A slow movement speed is death against any halfway intelligently played opponent.

I'm not sure how the Earthkin's AC is 3 points lower than a human's AC. They get a -1 Size Penalty to AC and a -1 Penalty to Dex, not sure where the third point comes from. Also, My initial version was not correctly made, so I'm revising them here to better fit both my vision for the race and the rules.

The first big difference is dropping Large, I simply don't find it strong enough as an offensive tool to justify the points it costs and a -2 AC penalty. For their fluff this doesn't change much, they still keep the Fandarra tie, but instead of being actually large, they're just larger than most humans (if the Race Builder had Powerful Build, I'd give them that) and they aren't technically giants. Then I made them a little more ferocious and less charismatic, made them tough and gave them a certain amount of human flexibility, they are nearly as varied as humans are. They are also extremely adept climbers, capable of moving quite well in their natural environment.


Medium Humanoid
+4 Str, -2 Dex -2 Cha - Greater Paragon (2 RP)
Normal Speed
Static Bonus Feat - Toughness (2 RP)
Climb Speed (2 RP)
Flexible Bonus Feat (4 RP)


These guys aren't as strong with sheer offense, but they are definitely tougher, since they only have a -1 AC penalty but 3 extra HP at first level. They also have a Bonus Feat which is the most useful thing that going Human gives you. I had to take away Reach and Power Attack because they were not following the RAW for the Race Builder. I think that they are now clearly superior martial combatants over any of the core races and even gain some other nice goodies that can be useful for anyone.