Thief of Death

[Nettlekid]

A little while ago I was looking at the Master Pickpocket feat, and thinking that building a character who was all about stealing everything they could get their hands on might be fun to play. Then I started thinking about just a full-blown thief character in general, but I didn't like that it would be pretty hard to play a Good-aligned thief, even if it was Robin Hood-esque. But then I thought, what about "stealing" abstract ideas? Someone who stole death from an ally/stole an ally's soul from death? Someone whose skills as a petty crook and a thief are so honed, they can steal away that which hardly even exists?
Homestuck spoilerA bit like Roxy out of Homestuck, whose Rogue of Void abilities let her steal the "nothingness" (the void) of an object and thus bring it into existence. There was also the Thief of Light who stole other creature's luck for herself, and the Thief of Life who ended up killing everyone she knew. So there are some more thiefy things.

How might you build and fluff such a character? I know the mechanics would be super weird, probably can't actually be done, so I guess the flavor would be the main goal. But what would it mean to "steal" death? I'm sort of thinking "steal" in the same way that Ur-Priests steal divine power from the gods, because what does that even mean? But it's a thing that happens. So...what comes to mind when I say this?

[Emperor Tippy]

Hmm.

Monk 2/ Ur-Priest 9/ Chameleon 9

Use tricks to meet the skill requirements for Ur-Priest early.

I thought of doing Monk 1/ Factotum 8/ Ur-Priest 2/ Beholder Mage 2/ Mystic Theuge 7 but that requires being a Beholder (initially I would go with a PAO but once you can afford it I would grab the True Mind Switch). Possibly drop the Monk entirely from this one.

You can refluff Cunning Surge as stealing time from the future. Ur-Priest is stealing divine power. Beholder Mage could possibly be fluffed as stealing arcane power

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Although me, I would just do this with a pure class Psion and do it mostly as refluffing and RP; at least if you get to start at ECL 17+. Use StP patsies to grab arcane and divine spells onto your powers known list. Use Simulacrum and Ice Assassin (for extra fun Link them to Catfall) to steal your enemies in combat (Catfall+Linked Chained Ice Assassin to make your enemies have to fight 20 copies of one of them). Refluff True Resurrection as stealing from death. Metafaculty is stealing knowledge from the universe.

Take 7 levels of Cosmic Descryer for Cosmic Connection and refluff that as stealing the raw power of creation for yourself.

[RFLS]

Where's Master Pickpocket located? I only found passing reference to it in a another thread, but can't source it.

[Emperor Tippy]

Where's Master Pickpocket located? I only found passing reference to it in a another thread, but can't source it.

Page 95 of City of Storm Reach.

Doing the standard Eberron thing and hiding in one of those stupid little boxes at the bottom of the page.

That's actually my biggest complaint about Eberron, how horribly badly the books are laid out and organized.

[mabriss lethe]

Some levels of Binder might add to the "thief of death" idea.

[Nettlekid]

Some levels of Binder might add to the "thief of death" idea.

Binder definitely has the "steal vague powers for yourself" thing going on. Andromalius's whole story about stealing his own soul from Olidammara is very in keeping with what I want this character to be like.


Hmm.

Monk 2/ Ur-Priest 9/ Chameleon 9

Use tricks to meet the skill requirements for Ur-Priest early.

I thought of doing Monk 1/ Factotum 8/ Ur-Priest 2/ Beholder Mage 2/ Mystic Theuge 7 but that requires being a Beholder (initially I would go with a PAO but once you can afford it I would grab the True Mind Switch). Possibly drop the Monk entirely from this one.

You can refluff Cunning Surge as stealing time from the future. Ur-Priest is stealing divine power. Beholder Mage could possibly be fluffed as stealing arcane power

---
Although me, I would just do this with a pure class Psion and do it mostly as refluffing and RP; at least if you get to start at ECL 17+. Use StP patsies to grab arcane and divine spells onto your powers known list. Use Simulacrum and Ice Assassin (for extra fun Link them to Catfall) to steal your enemies in combat (Catfall+Linked Chained Ice Assassin to make your enemies have to fight 20 copies of one of them). Refluff True Resurrection as stealing from death. Metafaculty is stealing knowledge from the universe.

Take 7 levels of Cosmic Descryer for Cosmic Connection and refluff that as stealing the raw power of creation for yourself.

This is what I expected, that a lot of it would be fluffing the idea of what the character's actually doing. I love the Factotum "stealing time from the future" thing, and I often think of Celerity the same way. I don't think Beholder Mage fits too well, not least of which because you have to be a Beholder, which I think are just a bit dumb looking. And yeah, Psion and Psionics in general, with their discreet manifestations, do fit it pretty well. "I stole the aspect of cold from around you, which is why you erupted into flames." "I stole the shadows, which is why it's bright right now." But it's a bit tricky to get a good psionic character that also has a "thief" feeling to it. Too few skill points, and too much devotion to just being all eggheady. Is there a good Rogue/Psion gish PrC out there? Or at least usable?

[Emperor Tippy]

This is what I expected, that a lot of it would be fluffing the idea of what the character's actually doing. I love the Factotum "stealing time from the future" thing, and I often think of Celerity the same way. I don't think Beholder Mage fits too well, not least of which because you have to be a Beholder, which I think are just a bit dumb looking. And yeah, Psion and Psionics in general, with their discreet manifestations, do fit it pretty well. "I stole the aspect of cold from around you, which is why you erupted into flames." "I stole the shadows, which is why it's bright right now." But it's a bit tricky to get a good psionic character that also has a "thief" feeling to it. Too few skill points, and too much devotion to just being all eggheady. Is there a good Rogue/Psion gish PrC out there? Or at least usable?

Factotum 3/ Psion (Telepath) 5/ Psychic Assassin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) 10/ Psion 1/ Swordsage or Monk 1.

Psion (Telepath) to qualify for Mind Sight, Factotum for the skills (combine with Able Learner and you should be golden), Psychic Assassin should be obvious. The last level of Psion is so that you manifest as an 11th level Psion and thus get 6th level powers, remember to grab Practiced Manifester.

Might want to make the last level another Factotum so that you qualify for Cunning Strike while Swordsage would up your versatility and Monk 1 is just nifty on Dex and Int focused builds.

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Psychic Assassin is about the only decent RAW Psion/Rogue gish.

Slayer can be alright but its not that great.

Elocater 1 is good if you use Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Martial Monk 2 to grab Mobility and Spring Attack before Chaos Shuffling Sidestep Charge to make up for Mobility.

[Nettlekid]

Factotum 3/ Psion (Telepath) 5/ Psychic Assassin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) 10/ Psion 1/ Swordsage or Monk 1.

Psion (Telepath) to qualify for Mind Sight, Factotum for the skills (combine with Able Learner and you should be golden), Psychic Assassin should be obvious. The last level of Psion is so that you manifest as an 11th level Psion and thus get 6th level powers, remember to grab Practiced Manifester.

Might want to make the last level another Factotum so that you qualify for Cunning Strike while Swordsage would up your versatility and Monk 1 is just nifty on Dex and Int focused builds.

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Psychic Assassin is about the only decent RAW Psion/Rogue gish.

Slayer can be alright but its not that great.

Elocater 1 is good if you use Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Martial Monk 2 to grab Mobility and Spring Attack before Chaos Shuffling Sidestep Charge to make up for Mobility.

Hmm, that does look pretty good. You think that Factotum X/Psion Y is a more thiefy build than just going with Psychic Rogue Z? I know you're often in favor of having high level Psions use Psychic Chirurgery to implant powers known (and doing so would be very in keeping with the character. "I'm stealing your studies. Ooh, that's interesting.") but the Psychic Rogue does get so few power points, and the slow progression means that every lost ML hits harder. Is Ebon Saint just too bad to work? Because it has a lot of fun "steal" stuff in it. Stealing thoughts, answers, forms, memories, etc.

[Emperor Tippy]

Hmm, that does look pretty good. You think that Factotum X/Psion Y is a more thiefy build than just going with Psychic Rogue Z?
Psychic Rogue gives you fifteen powers known (of fifth level or lower) and 100 PP over 20 levels along with +7d6 sneak attack.

Psion 5 (Telepath) with the Telepathy ACF/ Psychic Assassin 10 gets you 21 powers known (of fifth level or lower) and 88 PP along with +4d6 sneak attack and the other Assassins benefits. Your BAB is +9 vs. the +11 of a level 15 Psychic Rogue.

Psion 6 (Telepath)/ Psychic Assassin 10/ Rogue 3/ Swordsage 1 is in pretty much every metric better than a straight Psychic Rogue 20. Especially if you do fractional BAB and saves.

I would probably go Factotum 3/ Psion 5/ Psychic Assassin 10/ Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Martial Monk 2 with one of my Martial Monk feats being Martial Stance: Assassins Stance. Possibly switch it to Factotum 4 and Swordsage 1 if I was a human instead of a Gray Elf (and thus had some more feat issues).


I know you're often in favor of having high level Psions use Psychic Chirurgery to implant powers known (and doing so would be very in keeping with the character. "I'm stealing your studies. Ooh, that's interesting.") but the Psychic Rogue does get so few power points, and the slow progression means that every lost ML hits harder. Is Ebon Saint just too bad to work? Because it has a lot of fun "steal" stuff in it. Stealing thoughts, answers, forms, memories, etc.

It doesn't suck horribly badly (with the exception of its feat Prerequisites).

Factotum 3/ Psion 4/ Psychic Assassin 8/ Ebon Saint 5 would be decent (and manifests as a level 12 Psion which means 6th level powers and 126 PP) but looses out on Telepathy and thus Mind Sight. I suppose you could do it with a Necropolitan and take Lifesense instead (which kinda works thematically).

Use Practiced Manifester to qualify for Psychic Assassin.

And, of course, steal the good spells via StP Erudite and Psychic Chiguery for your own use. Also go the Midnight Augmentation on Bestow Power route for unlimited PP (which so works thematically).

[Waker]

A Beguiler going into Fatespinner and/or Luckstealer could make for a decent concept-thief. That build by itself gives you the ability to steal Luck or Fate along with the ability to steal the Will of others (enchantment).

[Nettlekid]

Psychic Rogue gives you fifteen powers known (of fifth level or lower) and 100 PP over 20 levels along with +7d6 sneak attack.

Psion 5 (Telepath) with the Telepathy ACF/ Psychic Assassin 10 gets you 21 powers known (of fifth level or lower) and 88 PP along with +4d6 sneak attack and the other Assassins benefits. Your BAB is +9 vs. the +11 of a level 15 Psychic Rogue.

Psion 6 (Telepath)/ Psychic Assassin 10/ Rogue 3/ Swordsage 1 is in pretty much every metric better than a straight Psychic Rogue 20. Especially if you do fractional BAB and saves.

I would probably go Factotum 3/ Psion 5/ Psychic Assassin 10/ Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Martial Monk 2 with one of my Martial Monk feats being Martial Stance: Assassins Stance. Possibly switch it to Factotum 4 and Swordsage 1 if I was a human instead of a Gray Elf (and thus had some more feat issues).



It doesn't suck horribly badly (with the exception of its feat Prerequisites).

Factotum 3/ Psion 4/ Psychic Assassin 8/ Ebon Saint 5 would be decent (and manifests as a level 12 Psion which means 6th level powers and 126 PP) but looses out on Telepathy and thus Mind Sight. I suppose you could do it with a Necropolitan and take Lifesense instead (which kinda works thematically).

Use Practiced Manifester to qualify for Psychic Assassin.

And, of course, steal the good spells via StP Erudite and Psychic Chiguery for your own use. Also go the Midnight Augmentation on Bestow Power route for unlimited PP (which so works thematically).

Ah, now that last build I like the look of. If I REALLY wanted Mindsight, I could do Factotum 3/Psion 3 at the start, and later use the psionic adaptation of Mindbender for the Telepathy. But I sort of like the idea of being a Necropolitan with Lifesense. Stealing himself from the grave and his soul from the afterlife.

And wow, I had never noticed that Midnight Augmentation. I think I usually look at Azure Talent and Psycarnum Infusion combo for free PP. But having just two Essentia points with Midnight Augmentation means a profit on every Bestow Power. Perhaps an Azurin, struck by disease and soon for the grave, but stole their powerful soul from the void itself? I like it!


A Beguiler going into Fatespinner and/or Luckstealer could make for a decent concept-thief. That build by itself gives you the ability to steal Luck or Fate along with the ability to steal the Will of others (enchantment).

Luckstealer is quite cool, but I don't like to rely on things that always allow saves for its main effect. Fatespinner strikes me as too ineffective for the investment. Just a few points up a DC through the day. And I don't...*think* I want to go the will-stealing route, just because that's a bit evil, and I'm trying to build something that's a bit less evil about stealing. Actually, with that in mind, I might want something that isn't Assassin, since there's no Psychic Avenger. Is there another, non-evil psiony PrC?

EDIT:
Okay, so I kind of like the sound of using Essentia to pump up what might be otherwise low skill checks. I'm thinking...using Able Learner and hopefully high Int to boost the skill points,
(Psychic ?) Rogue 1/Totemist 2/Psion 2/Ebon Saint 5/Soul Manifester 10. How does that look? You manifest as a 16th level Psion, and have the qualities of a 12th level Totemist (or Incarnate I guess, but I hear that for dips Totemist is better. Theft Gloves and Airstep Sandals are pretty great, which is Incarnate, but Shadow Mantle and Blink Shirt are also very cool, and that's Totemist only. Some of those are imitated by powers, but some are more convenient to have as not-powers. So...uh.)
I don't know if all those levels of Soul Manifester are ideal. It's got a lot of levels that are just theurgey, no other class features. Maybe other things, like three levels of Factotum, would suit better? *shrug*

[Emperor Tippy]

Dump Rogue for a level of Factotum and buy Novice Shadowhand Gloves.

Use them for Asasssin's Stance and that qualifies you for Ebon Saint. Once you get Ebon Saint 3 you can dump the stance (assuming you have one of those DM's who house rules that you have to keep qualifying for PrC's) as the class now self qualifies for sneak attack.

Switch over to Balance on the Sky (although you have fly, but remember to pay for Permanent Invisible Cloud Wings to up it by 30 ft.) or Aura of Perfect Order.

Factotum is pretty much strictly better than Rogue for this.

Although I would probably drop one level of Psion for one of something else. With PP regen the extra PP don't matter much and the two powers known can be picked up via Psychic Chiguery if you really care about them.

At a minimum I would replace it with Psychic Mindbender, its not like it costs you anything and telepathy without Mindsight is better than Psion 2.