Crafting a Gestalt Character

[Waker]

I've noticed that there has been a fairly regular amount of topics created with players asking for help when creating a gestalt character. The question I pose to each of you though is, "What are your priorities when playing gestalt?" That is, do you strive to combine classes that have powers who magnify each other, do you focus on thematically appropriate combinations or do you set different goals entirely? By the very nature of gestalt, it tends result in considerably more powerful character, so perhaps more than a normal game, you are expected to play a stronger character.
Personally I've never played a gestalt game, so my input on the topic is somewhat limited. I imagine that were I to play a game, I would be concerned more with mixing classes that have an decent amount of power but more importantly that they taste right when mixed. I'm also a stickler for simple builds, so I would avoid any dips and limit myself to one PrC at most.
If there are any favorite builds that you have tried/want to try, feel free to bring them up here as well.

If at all possible, try to avoid letting this thread devolve into a topic about calling each other munchkins and invoking stormwind fallacy.

[Manly Man]

For me, it all really depends on the theme of the setting, and the level of optimization that the table has. If they aren't really into making powerhouses, I go for sheer Rule of Cool; I've been wanting to make a Paladin//Samurai in Pathfinder for awhile now, and in a 3.P game, I've also tinkered with a Crusader//Synthesist. One of the main things I go for is synergy, usually with a mental stat, and that results int hings that are both thematic and fun. For example, a Psychic Warrior//Swordsage (Pathfinder variant of the PsyWar if possible) for the extras I get for having a high Wisdom bonus, as well as manifesting that makes the medium BAB far less of a problem with all of the buffing. On top of that, with how Swordsages are supposed to be thoughtful warriors, blending one with psionic abilities is just plain awesome. The bonus feats certainly don't hurt, either.

[hymer]

I haven't actually played a gestalt PC yet. I have an option for gestalt when I DM, though, and I have spent some time looking at what gestalt can and cannot do. That's mostly for fun and to familiarize myself with the concept.
I seem to think of gestalt as a character who is primarily a [class], and then has these further tricks up her sleeve.
There are a few exceptions to that. One is the gestalt gish, another the fighter/rogue type. These seem to blend the two sides into a particular flavour, which is well known already, but now gets a bump in power or versatility from gestalt. (There's also the "Mystic Theurge on steroids" possibility of having two tier 1 classes gestalted, but it would be something of a nightmare to keep track of all those spells and try not to squish the world by accident.)
I'm not too proud to admit that I sometimes make chassis comparisons, to see if any of them spark my imagination. Ranger/Wizard makes for a pretty decent chassis, as does Barbarian/Wizard. Unfortunately, they don't seem to get the creative juices flowing.
I find that characters like Druids and Clerics are the least obvious choices for gestalt, from the chassis standpoint. Clerics only really suffer in the skill point department, druids don't suffer at all. The wizard or sorcerer, by comparison, really gets something chassis-wise by gestalting. But as mentioned above, I need gestalt possibilities to speak to my imagination before trying them out.

[Gnaeus]

Step 1: Usually a good gestalt needs at least good Fort save, Will save, and d8 or better hp.
Step 2: Unless the group is super unoptimized, you want to be using 9th level spells/powers/maneuvers on one side of the build.
Step 3: Check for synergy. You usually want a passive class that adds to the abilities of the active class. The active class is the one you will be using most of the time in combat.
Step 4: Having complementary prime requisites or armor use is nice also, but less important.

Many otherwise weak classes, like fighter or monk, are actually really good passive classes in gestalt. A few classes, like Synthesist Summoner and Factotum, are beyond the pale amazing in gestalt and gestalt well with almost anything.

[Hunter Noventa]

Many otherwise weak classes, like fighter or monk, are actually really good passive classes in gestalt. A few classes, like Synthesist Summoner and Factotum, are beyond the pale amazing in gestalt and gestalt well with almost anything.

A class that I found gestalts well with anything, to add to this list, is the Pathfinder Soulknife. They get a full BaB and a free magic weapon, essentially. I paired one with a Swordsage and it was a lot of fun.

[AzureKnight]

When playing gestalt characters I have seen some of my players go polor opisite like fighter wizard just for good overall saves and self buffing, others just figure add rouge to whatever for more skill points. Acouple try to couple classes together and make a great class combo like swashbuckler rouge with either shadoedancer or assassin later. One player went fighter ranger to get a free fighting style with the ranger and twink it with fighter bonus feats.

[Vhaidara]

My first campaign actually involved gestalts because there were only 2 players.

The other guy liked playing tanky (this has proved consistent), so he did a Fighter/Cleric and found a Faerunian (which we were using) deity with War and Strength domains. Damn good combo, since he had his own buffs while in full armor.

I made a classic beginners mistake. I went Monk/Wizard. My thought was that I would actually make use of touch spells, and the concept was cool as hell. In implementation though, I was a character who was dependent on STR for damage and accuracy, DEX for AC, CON for HP, INT for spells, and WIS for AC. I was so horrifically stat deprived that every encounter ended with me on the ground bleeding out after missing every attack while my cousin (other player) mopped up the enemies with his falchion.

In other words, in my experience there are Powergame gestalts (Any 9 level casting/manifesting combo), there are badass flavorful gestalts (my arcane monk path), and then there are ones that achieve a good balance (Melee class with buff focused divine caster, Rogue with arcane casting for silence and invis, etc)

[dascarletm]

I've played in 2 gestalt games, soon to be a third coming up.

Both of the previous ones had extra rules on top of the gestalt, that made gestalting more for flavor than actual power.

Game 1: We started in a monastery, and everyone's one side of the gestalt was monk. We all knew this before-hand and were fine with it. Ended up to be an enjoyable game.

Game 2: One side of your classes needed to be one of the four NPC classes in the DMG. This was an E6 "dark" campaign. I played a ranger//adept, who specialized in killing lycans. Most everyone either chose warrior for BaB, or adept for some spells. One guy took expert, and the commoner//fighter ended up being extra cool. Played it up as the unlikely hero.

This next game, is all about strategy. I actually haven't decided what to play, but the game will consist of 2 (maybe 3) people. The other guy is a knight//duskblade, and I'm debating what I should play as. Everything is open, and for a support/ BFC role I'm leaning toward one side wizard.

[Waker]

I'm not too proud to admit that I sometimes make chassis comparisons, to see if any of them spark my imagination. Ranger/Wizard makes for a pretty decent chassis, as does Barbarian/Wizard. Unfortunately, they don't seem to get the creative juices flowing.
I find that characters like Druids and Clerics are the least obvious choices for gestalt, from the chassis standpoint. Clerics only really suffer in the skill point department, druids don't suffer at all. The wizard or sorcerer, by comparison, really gets something chassis-wise by gestalting. But as mentioned above, I need gestalt possibilities to speak to my imagination before trying them out.
That view is similar to my own. While something like a Ranger/Wizard would make for a decent combination, I just have trouble thinking about a good image for the character. Other combinations lend themselves better to it though, like mixing Crusader/DFA to play a "Dragon Knight" or Warblade/War Mage for a "Battle Mage".


Step 3: Check for synergy. You usually want a passive class that adds to the abilities of the active class. The active class is the one you will be using most of the time in combat.
Step 4: Having complementary prime requisites or armor use is nice also, but less important.

Many otherwise weak classes, like fighter or monk, are actually really good passive classes in gestalt. A few classes, like Synthesist Summoner and Factotum, are beyond the pale amazing in gestalt and gestalt well with almost anything.
The active/passive class is always what I try to point out in the various gestalt threads. So much easier to build a character when you can focus on feats/abilities for one class while the other class shores up weaknesses. Though certain combos do work together well enough that you don't need active/passive, such as the aforementioned Swordsage/Psychic Warrior.

[Gnaeus]

I made a classic beginners mistake. I went Monk/Wizard. My thought was that I would actually make use of touch spells, and the concept was cool as hell. In implementation though, I was a character who was dependent on STR for damage and accuracy, DEX for AC, CON for HP, INT for spells, and WIS for AC. I was so horrifically stat deprived that every encounter ended with me on the ground bleeding out after missing every attack while my cousin (other player) mopped up the enemies with his falchion.

Monk//Wizard is actually a pretty solid gestalt combo. If you pretend that you are a wizard who just happens to have a marginally better AC, better HP, saves, and better BaB for those ranged touch attacks, and more skill points, you are in pretty good shape. The beginner mistake was in how you were playing it, and possibly in how you built it.

[Deox]

Gestalting is popular among my group and Binder is a go to choice for one side. Binder works well with anything.

[Ortesk]

I played one gestalt, with a house rule you can only prestige one side (Never looked at official gestalt rules so assume its a house rule) i went warblade 20 and wizard/incantrix/IotSV on the other side. Worked nicely, but went to being RP only when we butchered everything we saw with impunity

[JaronK]

Classes that are specifically better in Gestalt due to how they work:

1: Factotum. Extra actions is critical in Gestalt, and their flexibility makes them work well with everything. But mostly, those extra standard actions + any caster or martial adept or anything else that likes standard actions = awesome.

2: Monk. Lots of nice passive abilities that can be added to anyone who wants to fight in melee, plus all good saves and a few other nice things.

3: Druid: Active casting, passive Wildshape. Very nice.

4: Arcane Duelist. An otherwise terrible class made awesome in situations where its lack of casting advancement isn't such a problem.

5: War Hulk. 0BAB means nothing now. Hulk smash.

6: Heirophant: It's a caster PrC that doesn't advance casting. Suddenly, that's not such an issue.

7: Warblade. It goes incredibly well with any Int caster... or with Factotums of course.

8: Binder. Vestiges like Astaroth are incredible with a caster, and in general you can always find a vestige that goes with whatever you were doing.

9: Paladin of Tyranny. Charisma to saves is great for a Charisma caster, and the save penalty really helps with the same.

10: Chameleon. The unlimited floating feat is just so powerful for casters.

JaronK

[Deox]

8: Binder. Vestiges like Astaroth are incredible with a caster, and in general you can always find a vestige that goes with whatever you were doing.
JaronK

Did you mean Astaroth (Cityscape Web Enhancement) or Astaroth (Dragon Mag)? Or, if some kind of mad man, both?! Yo dawg...:smallcool:

[herrhauptmann]

I played one gestalt, with a house rule you can only prestige one side (Never looked at official gestalt rules so assume its a house rule) i went warblade 20 and wizard/incantrix/IotSV on the other side. Worked nicely, but went to being RP only when we butchered everything we saw with impunity
That's actually the standard rule.



When playing gestalt characters I have seen some of my players go polor opisite like fighter wizard just for good overall saves and self buffing, others just figure add rouge to whatever for more skill points. Acouple try to couple classes together and make a great class combo like swashbuckler rouge with either shadoedancer or assassin later.
Warrior//Wizard is the Gish type mentioned. A better choice is Warblade//Wizard, since warblade is stronger than a fighter, and it offers int synergy.
Rogue by the way, not rouge.

You try a daring outlaw rogue gestalted with a hellfire glaivelock? That's a lot of d6 to throw around.

[JaronK]

Did you mean Astaroth (Cityscape Web Enhancement) or Astaroth (Dragon Mag)? Or, if some kind of mad man, both?! Yo dawg...:smallcool:

I was going for the one that gives you the item creation feat of your choice.

JaronK

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I find there are two main methods to create a crazy gestalt character:

Method 1: Look at Person_Man's X Stat to Y Bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) thread, throw in all the crap classes whose only benefit is to add some stat to things on one side, do something active related to that stat on the other side, go to town.

The reason this works better in gestalt is because (1) you generally get access to various abilities more quickly and (2) on top of your stat synergy you have something good to do via your active side.

Method 2: Pair an active class with classes that grant actions, like factotum or psion. Nova the crap out of everything.

These methods, of course, can be combined, but INT is a hard stat for synergy unless you go into the confusing morass of rules that is using Control Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/controlBody.htm) on yourself.

[Mr Adventurer]

I'm playing a Warblade|Factotum right now, it's baller as hell. I'm like the perfect adventurer out of a story - can perform any skill when the narrative demands it, cast the odd spell when it's important, sneak, athletics, face skills, a personal fighting style and lust for competition. Perfect.

Of course the other guy in the party went Rogue|Druid, so he's a backflipping kidney-biting acid-spitting dinosaur. Sigh.