Need Advice, making a 3.5 glaive warlock *hard mode* [Archive]

Cryov

2013-10-22, 02:37 AM

*Edit: So for those that helped me out, here is the end result http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=688097 *

So I am looking into making a glaive warlock and the dm has put in a number of strict rules with this campaign.

No 3.0 content.
No content from other settings. (faerun, sandstorm, etc)
No Psionics
No Tome of Magic
No Bloodlines
No Flaws
No Dragon Mag stuff
No Homebrew
Banned feats: Adaptive Style, Divine Metamagic, Shocktrooper, Combat Brute, Natural Spell, Earth Spell, Spirit Lion totem, Abrupt Jaunt

Needless to say this can limit some options, I *might* be able to get some things approved but he doesn't want anything broken op in the campaign which I am fine with.

I will be starting out at lvl 9. I have a 32 pt buy or 3 sets of 4d6 drop the lowest.
The general idea is to be a human and I plan on multi-classing. Hellfire warlock seems to be a for sure thing. Other than that I was considering Eldritch Disciple for some cleric multi-classing so I can get a persistent Divine Power buff way later on (due to divine metamagic being banned this will be down the road a fair bit).
I've also clarified that shape soulmeld doesn't work with Hellfire and I believe the Binder class is in Tome of Magic so no go for quick ability regen. I'll have to use another item, some help there would be great.

I've searched various guides but they all are uber broken builds with flaws for a bajillion starting feats.
I'd be happy to forgo the Cleric multiclass and eldritch disciple if I could get a full BAB and maintain the EB dmg.

So with this strict frame in mind you can see why I need some help. I really do like the concept of this class so any help would be appreciated.

*edit* I just realized 3.0 persistent spell uses up a spell slot 4 higher..3.5 uses up one 6 higher. So is there a way to get around this?

Moonwolf727

2013-10-22, 02:55 AM

I personally can't help you because I am not experience with warlocks, let alone those who use glaives, but I can link you to a handbook that might be useful as a resource or guide. It's HERE (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1110396).

I hope this is helpful and I'm sorry if it isn't. :smallsmile:

IronFist

2013-10-22, 02:57 AM

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159708) should be helpful.

Cryov

2013-10-22, 09:29 AM

I've looked at that and some various other guides and builds.
Still having problems making this build viable with these limits -_-

gooddragon1

2013-10-22, 09:44 AM

I've looked at that and some various other guides and builds.
Still having problems making this build viable with these limits -_-

9th level? My favorite.

Warlock 8/Warblade 1

Stance: Punishing Stance = +1d6 to melee attacks (eldritch glaive)
Maneuvers: White Raven Tactics, Leading the Attack, Iron Heart Surge (punishing stance counts for the prereq)

Invocations: Eldritch Glaive, Fell Flight, Whatever

You're stuck in an antimagic field dungeon/can't contribute/only one person can shine? White Raven Tactics.

Not the greatest damage build ever and not full BAB from cleric and whatnot but I usually trust DM's not to throw monsters with insane amounts of HP unless the players are dealing insane amounts of damage.

Yogibear41

2013-10-22, 09:50 AM

Forrestfire

2013-10-22, 10:05 AM

What is your DM's opinion/ruling on early-entry with Precocious Apprentice?

Duskblade 1/Fighter 1/Warlock 3/Spellsword 1 (advancing warlock)/Abjurant Champion 3 (advancing warlock)/Hellfire Warlock 3/Abjurant Champion 2 (advancing Warlock)/Eldritch Theurge 4/Warlock 1

... gets you 5th-level Duskblade casting (which will most likely be used for buffs--is there a 2nd-level abjuration spell that grants armor or shield bonuses?), 18th-level Warlock invoking, +6d6 hellfire, and +16 BAB at level 20.

You'd need to take Precocious Apprentice at level 1, and combat casting at some point before level 6 (for Abjurant Champion), but other than that, the feats of the build are wide open.

Personally, if I were DMing, I would be fine with the early entry for this case, if only because it's really not that abusive (at least in my opinion).

Cryov

2013-10-22, 10:39 AM

What is your DM's opinion/ruling on early-entry with Precocious Apprentice?

Duskblade 1/Fighter 1/Warlock 3/Spellsword 1 (advancing warlock)/Abjurant Champion 3 (advancing warlock)/Hellfire Warlock 3/Abjurant Champion 2 (advancing Warlock)/Eldritch Theurge 4/Warlock 1

Can you advance as warlock in those? They say arcane caster right?

9th level? My favorite.

Warlock 8/Warblade 1

Stance: Punishing Stance = +1d6 to melee attacks (eldritch glaive)
Maneuvers: White Raven Tactics, Leading the Attack, Iron Heart Surge (punishing stance counts for the prereq)

Dont you have to be a higher lvl warblade to get ironheart surge?

Forrestfire

2013-10-22, 10:55 AM

Can you advance as warlock in those? They say arcane caster right?

Complete Arcane, p. 18 has a section called "Warlocks and Prestige Classes" that says that a warlock can use any "+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class" or "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" to advance eldritch blast and invocations as if they'd gained a warlock level, including learning new invocations and what tiers they can pick from.

Dont you have to be a higher lvl warblade to get ironheart surge?

When you take a level in an initiator class at higher than level 1, or multiclass out, other classes add half their level to your initiator level.

Taking a level of Warblade at level 9 would make your initiator level (8/2) + 1, or 5, qualifying you for any 3rd-level or lower maneuvers. Note that your first stance still has to be 1st-level, as stated in the "stances known" section.

Cryov

2013-10-22, 10:56 AM

Its not raw, but the guy who wrote complete arcane said that he would allow practiced spellcaster to advance eldritch blast damage ask your DM if he will allow this, if he does thats basically 4 levels of free multiclassing in which case there is basically no reason to not go for eldritch disciple, IMO.

He said no go and I saw the post about that, even the creator said it really wouldn't work due to the wording of the eldritch blast.

Forrestfire

2013-10-22, 11:08 AM

No content from other settings. (faerun, sandstorm, etc)

Just so I'm clear... Is this a typo or does the DM consider the environment books to be campaign settings? :smallconfused:

Cryov

2013-10-22, 11:10 AM

Forrestfire, I like the concept, I do have one question tho..
Why one lvl fighter vs a 2nd lvl as duskblade?

*edit* and how is the duskblade casting at 5th lvl if you are advancing warlock?

Cryov

2013-10-22, 11:11 AM

Just so I'm clear... Is this a typo or does the DM consider the environment books to be campaign settings? :smallconfused:

Eh..my bad for that. He doesn't allow other enviroment books either.

drax75

2013-10-22, 11:16 AM

Cryov

2013-10-22, 11:21 AM

Those are some dumb and bad feats to ban......

Play a Wizard and own the game.... I would do it just out of principle. Why would you ban the only feat tree's that make melee characters even half relevant....

I know this doesn't help you but dang thats bad.

Tome of battle isnt banned and pretty much it forced all the melee characters to utilize it to keep up with the 10-12d6 fireballs the wizard was casting at lvl 8 -_-

He didnt want clerics or druids to make the melee classes worthless later but in turn by banning all this stuff he really screwed alot of other things.

On a side note, we all joked about suiciding and each of us re-rolling a wizard specialized in a different school because of this.

Forrestfire

2013-10-22, 11:25 AM

Forrestfire, I like the concept, I do have one question tho..
Why one lvl fighter vs a 2nd lvl as duskblade?

*edit* and how is the duskblade casting at 5th lvl if you are advancing warlock?

Actually, that's a good point. For some reason I was thinking that duskblade only gave medium armor proficiency, and the second duskblade level gets you combat casting, so it's the same amount of feats gained. Do that instead.

Duskblade casting is at 5th level (6th with the second level of duskblade) because Eldritch Theurge advances both warlock and duskblade.

Also, for mitigation of hellfire warlock, I'm going to suggest grabbing a wand of lesser restoration (at worst) or, if you can, one or more Rods of Bodily Restoration (Magic Item Compedium, p. 173). Each will basically give you 3 rounds of hellfiring at max BAB.

Eh..my bad for that. He doesn't allow other enviroment books either.

:smallfrown: But they're so much fun! Ah well, not like they're being used in this build anyway...

Play a Wizard and own the game.... I would do it just out of principle. Why would you ban the only feat tree's that make melee characters even half relevant....

Tome of battle isnt banned and pretty much it forced all the melee characters to utilize it to keep up with the 10-12d6 fireballs the wizard was casting at lvl 8 -_-

He didnt want clerics or druids to make the melee classes worthless later but in turn by banning all this stuff he really screwed alot of other things.

I'm not sure if I should see it as an amusing example of the DM not understanding what it is that makes casters so great, or a depressing example of seeing melee having good things and removing them.

Juntao112

2013-10-22, 11:31 AM

I've searched various guides but they all are uber broken builds with flaws for a bajillion starting feats.
I'd be happy to forgo the Cleric multiclass and eldritch disciple if I could get a full BAB and maintain the EB dmg.

So with this strict frame in mind you can see why I need some help. I really do like the concept of this class so any help would be appreciated.

Here you go. (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=68771)

GreenETC

2013-10-22, 11:57 AM

One of the biggest problems of building a multiclass Warlock is the fact that SR is literally going to be your worst nightmare, completely invalidating your damage unless you can beat it. It's one of the biggest issues Wizards have, and multiclassing Glaivelocks will immediately feel the pain of SR, with their low CL for Eldritch Blast.

Hellfire Warlock is great, but without the ability to use it every round without killing yourself, I'm unsure if it would be worth it. The significant damage increase is not worth killing yourself over. Eldritch Disciple is one of my favorite classes in the game because of their ability to turn Eldritch Blast into a healing spell for one round, allowing you to either Glaive allies with multiple touch attack heals or Spear allies from across the battlefield.

I had been working on a Warlock/Eldritch Disciple build that used Demonwrecker from Expedition to the Demonweb Pits (a Planescape book, so I'm not sure if it's okay for you, but it is 3.5). The capstone in the class allows the character to ignore the SR of Demons, one of the most common forms of outsider, and the class can be changed to Demonwrecker Arcane to advance Warlock if you want.

Other than that, good luck. Those kind of restrictions make it very difficult to make a Warlock good, as Hellfire is one of the best advancements for a Warlock.

Cryov

2013-10-22, 12:06 PM

The SR can be negated later on through a warlock ability but up until that point it will be a pain if I come across it.

Other than that, forrestfire, how do you propose I stack the AC?
Run around in full plate and cast some defensive spell or...?

Cryov

2013-10-22, 12:13 PM

Here you go. (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=68771)

To point out..your eldritch blast says +13/+8. You know you can only cast it once a round right?
Thus this awesomeness and reason behind a glaivelock :)

Forrestfire

2013-10-22, 12:17 PM

Yeah, SR will be an issue. Depending on how your build's CL goes, you could run into some nasty situations against enemies that just ignore you. At least you get Vitrolic at level 11 (13 with the duskblade so-dippy-it-should-be-served-with-chips build), but then you run into the acid damage being your only way to get around it.

If you have spells, Energy Affinity into Sudden Energy Affinity (Miniatures Handbook p. 25 and 28, respectively) would let you swap the energy type of your eldritch blast (or a spell or invocation) once per day. Not the best, but still alright if you manage to have spare feats.

For AC, it depends on what alignment your character is. If you're chaotic good, Precocious Apprentice lets you pick up luminous armor, which lasts two hours per caster level with Abjurant Champion's free extend, and is kinda extremely good. At the cost of 1 strength damage for casting it (easily mitigated by having an odd score in strength), it's +5 to AC (+your Abjurant Champion level), and enemies take a -4 to hit you in melee.

Luminous armor is in the Book of Exalted Deeds, p. 102. You'll probably also want Practiced Spellcaster (Duskblade) for increasing the duration to 12 hours total per casting.

If you're nongood, then I'd suggest either a mithril breastplate of some sort, or a mithral twilight (+1 enchantment, -10% spell failure, BoED p. 112) gith-or-feycraft (DMG II) full plate, which has a 10% arcane spell failure after the reductions, reduced to 0% by spellsword.

Scrolls of shield can be Use Magic Device'd, and since scrolls are spell completion items, it should count as casting it yourself unless the DM rules otherwise, so that is another 4+Abjurant Champion level. Or you could get an enchanted buckler or something, but I think a bunch of 25gp scrolls over the course of your career might end up being cheaper.

Cryov

2013-10-22, 12:35 PM

Luminous Armor seems nice but isnt that a sanctified or spell domain or something?
I plan on going chaotic good. (No evil chars in this campaign).
I take it the lvl of spell sword is to get another +1 ba and arcane lvl so you get abjurant champion?

Forrestfire

2013-10-22, 12:54 PM

Sanctified is a special type of spell, like Vile, that is not connected to any list. Any prepared spellcaster can learn it... Which is actually a hassle if it's Duskblade you're casting from.

You'll also need Arcane Preparation (Complete Arcane p. 73) to be able to take it, but it's still the best option you'll get, and much better than any armor you'll have access to at your level.

Cryov

2013-10-22, 12:56 PM

He banned luminous armor the moment I brought it up :/

Juntao112

2013-10-22, 01:00 PM

To point out..your eldritch blast says +13/+8. You know you can only cast it once a round right?
Thus this awesomeness and reason behind a glaivelock :)

I blame the sheet's autofill function.

Forrestfire

2013-10-22, 01:00 PM

Of all the things to take issue with in the build... :smallsigh:

In any case, yes, Spellsword is in there for the extra BAB. It could be another Warlock level (because the 4th warlock level also increases BAB), but initially the idea was that spellsword had a higher hit die. Now it's pretty much mandatory if you're going to wear armor.

You should ask your DM how he interprets scrolls and Abjurant Champion's abilities. If he lets Abjurant Armor apply to scrolls or wands, then the 4th warlock level should be taken over Spellsword for being able to take 10 on Use Magic Device checks.

Cryov

2013-10-22, 01:11 PM

The moment I defined what a sanctified spell was he banned all of them..he especially didnt like the -4 and what not from luminous armor.
So I can use deflect as an immediate, scrolls, wear armor, or somehow dig up another spell :/

Forrestfire

2013-10-22, 01:16 PM

Don't you love arbitrary DM bans? :smallsigh:

In any case, there aren't any other abjurations that give armor bonuses, so I'd still check about the scrolls of shield, and then pick up a +1 Mithral Twilight Githcraft Full Plate. It costs 15,100gp, which is less than half of your starting WBL for level 9, and so unless he vetos it out of hand like Luminous Armor, you should be able to pick it up.

+9 total armor bonus, and a +3 max dex bonus. A ring of protection is also suggested, as is taking the Fell Flight invocation and not having to deal with melee unless you have to.

On another note, unless you plan on needing skills for something, Knowedge Devotion is another good feat to increase your damage. The Otherworldly Whispers least invocation grants +6 to Arcana, Religion, and The Planes, and since you're human and need a 15 in int anyway, you're going to have an alright amount of skill points.

I'd suggest Str 15, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 12 as your starting ability scores, to get your skill points higher, and then using your ability bonuses at levels 4 and 8 to up Strength and whatever else.

gooddragon1

2013-10-22, 02:37 PM

Well, if you want to play a "melee" caster like a warlock:

Cleric with Ice Axe (http://dndtools.eu/spells/spell-compendium--86/ice-axe--3862/).

Specifically: Maximized, Empowered, Energy Substitute (Sonic). That's 8th level.

If you are really paranoid you can go with sanctified one of kord and get the fire as non-typed option and then substitute to fire and redirect to non-typed. Tack on a transdimensional spell feat if you don't like incorporeal miss chance.

Damage output:
34 (maximized) -> 51 (empowered) per attack. 4 attacks with divine power gives you 204 damage without rolling a fistful of d6's.

Attackuracy: Cleric melee bot style which could be a whole lot.

Worried about time needed for buffing? Trickery domain and time stop. No need for a persist. Just crank out a divine power and an ice axe spell.

Cryov

2013-10-22, 02:46 PM

I got it all worked out guys. I greatly appreciate your help with this tough build. Forrestfire, thank you especially as I will be using your build suggestion.
I'll be posting a character sheet later on today in this thread so you can gander over your work.

Forrestfire

2013-10-22, 02:51 PM

Glad I could help. Hope it ends up working out to be a fun character :smallsmile:

EDIT: I just realized that you can drop the second level of Duskblade for a fourth level of Warlock and still have 4 BAB at level 5 for entry into Spellsword at 6. If you are willing to trade effectively 3 feats for an extra die of eldritch blast, you could do:

Duskblade 1/Warlock 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 3/Hellfire Warlock 3/Abjurant Champion 2/Eldritch Theurge 4/Dragonslayer 1

Which needs Iron Will and Dodge (eww) and loses Combat Casting from Duskblade, so you'd have to take it yourself... I'm not sure it'd be worth it, honestly. But I felt like I'd throw it out there as another option.