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visigani
2013-10-22, 10:04 AM
I'm an Anti-Feminist.

Yes, you read that right. Anti-Feminist. It doesn't mean I hate women, or want them stuck in the kitchen or want to deprive women of fundamental rights and liberties.

Feminism is an ideology, female is a gender. I'm against an ideology that I believe is not what it says it is.

To that end the Feminist colonization of gaming has come into full swing. With advent of Anita Sarkeesian, the recent brujajah in the accusations of misogyny in grand theft auto v in a video game review... I have to wonder how long it will be until tabletop games are following the same drumbeat.

A company can do whatever it likes, it's a private entity created for the express purpose of providing profit to its ownership. That's all well and good... but I am made deeply uncomfortable about games being called out for not adhering to the tenets of a specific ideology.

I remember the immense damage that an ideology did to D&D (and to some extent still does) during the 1980's, and I'd rather the gaming community not have to endure that again.

Astrella
2013-10-22, 10:06 AM
People can criticize games. The gaming community has ongoing problems with sexism and other -isms, just look at the pile of transphobia and misogyny Carolyn Petit got thrown at her for her review.

Friv
2013-10-22, 10:17 AM
Does this thread provide anything that the existing 900-post discussion on the subject doesn't?

Rhynn
2013-10-22, 10:19 AM
Does this thread provide anything that the existing 900-post discussion on the subject doesn't?

Well, we now know what visigani's opinion is, and isn't that really what's important?

Hyena
2013-10-22, 10:19 AM
Oh, no. Please not again. There were already -what - five or four threads that had discussed this exact topic for the last week?

visigani
2013-10-22, 10:28 AM
People can criticize games. The gaming community has ongoing problems with sexism and other -isms, just look at the pile of transphobia and misogyny Carolyn Petit got thrown at her for her review.

If games are sexist against anyone, it's males... the default person you kill is almost always male gender.

Rhynn
2013-10-22, 10:29 AM
And the cycle of all the old arguments all over again begins!

warty goblin
2013-10-22, 10:36 AM
I'm an Anti-Feminist.

Yes, you read that right. Anti-Feminist. It doesn't mean I hate women, or want them stuck in the kitchen or want to deprive women of fundamental rights and liberties.

Feminism is an ideology, female is a gender. I'm against an ideology that I believe is not what it says it is.

So you don't hate women, don't want women deprived of fundamental rights and liberties, but you're against an ideology that promotes equality for women?

And to think, in my mythology class they told me Janus was a myth.




To that end the Feminist colonization of gaming has come into full swing. With advent of Anita Sarkeesian, the recent brujajah in the accusations of misogyny in grand theft auto v in a video game review... I have to wonder how long it will be until tabletop games are following the same drumbeat.
Not damn soon enough.


A company can do whatever it likes, it's a private entity created for the express purpose of providing profit to its ownership. That's all well and good... but I am made deeply uncomfortable about games being called out for not adhering to the tenets of a specific ideology.
And people can say whatever they like about what a company does.


I remember the immense damage that an ideology did to D&D (and to some extent still does) during the 1980's, and I'd rather the gaming community not have to endure that again.
Ah, right. Because if not protected vigilantly against any exterior criticism, people are gonna come and take all our nice nerd toys away, and if the elf chicks aren't dressed like Victoria's Secret models the terrorists win. Did I do that right?

Blackjackg
2013-10-22, 10:54 AM
I'm against an ideology that I believe is not what it says it is.

Out of curiosity, how can an ideology not be what it says it is? An ideology is a system of ideas, and I'm not aware of any way that ideas can be different from what they are claimed to be. Now, you might be saying that feminists as a group of people are lying about what their ideologies are, but that's a pretty big accusation-- also hard to believe, considering how many feminists there are and how little large-scale communication there is among us.


To that end the Feminist colonization of gaming has come into full swing.

Does this mean that you think that gaming is naturally a non-feminist space and the only way feminists can influence it is by invading? Huh. What about us lifelong gamers who are also feminists?


That's all well and good... but I am made deeply uncomfortable about games being called out for not adhering to the tenets of a specific ideology.

What about calling out makes you uncomfortable? Calling out doesn't mean legal sanctions or getting hit with pain sticks, it's talking. And it's not even being forced to defend yourself, you could just not respond to the call out. So do you think games just shouldn't be talked about?

Juntao112
2013-10-22, 11:01 AM
To that end the Feminist colonization of gaming has come into full swing. With advent of Anita Sarkeesian, the recent brujajah in the accusations of misogyny in grand theft auto v in a video game review... I have to wonder how long it will be until tabletop games are following the same drumbeat.
Jimquisition: Neutered (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7916-Neutered)


A company can do whatever it likes, it's a private entity created for the express purpose of providing profit to its ownership. That's all well and good... but I am made deeply uncomfortable about games being called out for not adhering to the tenets of a specific ideology.
Freedom of speech goes both ways.

Spiryt
2013-10-22, 11:03 AM
We definitely need few more of those threads.

Mr. Mask
2013-10-22, 11:06 AM
Out of curiosity, how can an ideology not be what it says it is? Look at the ideas of Lenin, vs. how the USSR turned out... Look to the Spanish Inquisition, or any Christian despot.

visigani
2013-10-22, 11:07 AM
Out of curiosity, how can an ideology not be what it says it is? An ideology is a system of ideas, and I'm not aware of any way that ideas can be different from what they are claimed to be. Now, you might be saying that feminists as a group of people are lying about what their ideologies are, but that's a pretty big accusation-- also hard to believe, considering how many feminists there are and how little large-scale communication there is among us.



Does this mean that you think that gaming is naturally a non-feminist space and the only way feminists can influence it is by invading? Huh. What about us lifelong gamers who are also feminists?



What about calling out makes you uncomfortable? Calling out doesn't mean legal sanctions or getting hit with pain sticks, it's talking. And it's not even being forced to defend yourself, you could just not respond to the call out. So do you think games just shouldn't be talked about?

So I start up the Holy Divine Radiance of the Faith of Not Sacrificing Children to the Blood God.

And every sunday we get together and sacrifice children to the blood god.

We say we don't. See, right in the name... Faith of Not Sacrificing Children to the Blood God...

But we do it anyway.

Feminism, especially in first world nations, is absolutely not working in favor of equality. I suppose it could be argued Feminism works to benefit women... but you might as well call it a supremacy movement at that point.

In the U.S. Women earn just under 60% of the degrees, live longer, are sentenced to 63% less time for the same crime, and are overwhelmingly the beneficiaries of government benefits and programs (i.e. the majority in college and getting the majority of scholarships as well as virtually all gender based scholarships) while we're facing a tidal wave of uneducated men.

Roughly a quarter of the male children of white college educated professionals can't read at grade level. And it just gets worse the further down you go.

And Feminists aren't heard to speak nary a peep.

So yeah, it's a Supremacist movement. And that's fine, it's a free country. If you want to support a supremacist movement be my guest.

I'd just rather you keep your ideology out of my games.

Frosty
2013-10-22, 11:08 AM
The best way to respond is to let these threads die out and not feed the trolls.

Mr. Mask
2013-10-22, 11:10 AM
Visigani: While that information may be true, you're only naming the problems men face and none of the problems women face. It might also be true that Feminists ignore this information and don't say anything about it as you describe... but, that's what you're currently doing as to problems women face.

Gavran
2013-10-22, 11:10 AM
Ah, right. Because if not protected vigilantly against any exterior criticism, people are gonna come and take all our nice nerd toys away, and if the elf chicks aren't dressed like Victoria's Secret models the terrorists win. Did I do that right?

I find it really depressing that you're so wrapped up in bipartisanship that you're lumping everyone you disagree with into one "idiot" category. I wonder how many more groups you're making negative generalizations and oversimplifications about so carelessly.

0Megabyte
2013-10-22, 11:12 AM
I'm an Anti-Feminist.

Yes, you read that right. Anti-Feminist. It doesn't mean I hate women, or want them stuck in the kitchen or want to deprive women of fundamental rights and liberties.

Okay, then you're not anti-feminist. Unless this isn't true... we shall see.

[/QUOTE]Feminism is an ideology, female is a gender. I'm against an ideology that I believe is not what it says it is.[/QUOTE]

Uh huh. So feminism is not about fighting for equality for women, equality in jobs, reproductive rights, culture and respect?

I don't think it's true.


To that end the Feminist colonization of gaming has come into full swing. With advent of Anita Sarkeesian, the recent brujajah in the accusations of misogyny in grand theft auto v in a video game review... I have to wonder how long it will be until tabletop games are following the same drumbeat.

Oh noes! People criticized a video game for not having female playable characters! Shock! Horror! How DARE they want to be able to play someone like themselves! See! It's oppression, pure and simple!

Wait, no it's not.

Or... Anita Sarkeesian! She dared criticize tropes in media and video games, and actually, *gasp* pointed out how they treat women as lesser than men!

We can't have women going around thinking they deserve the same dignity as MEN do, after all! I mean-

Wait, no, that's ridiculous.


A company can do whatever it likes, it's a private entity created for the express purpose of providing profit to its ownership. That's all well and good... but I am made deeply uncomfortable about games being called out for not adhering to the tenets of a specific ideology.

And I'm deeply uncomfortable about you complaining the same.


I remember the immense damage that an ideology did to D&D (and to some extent still does) during the 1980's, and I'd rather the gaming community not have to endure that again.

Because obviously all ideologies are after the same thing.

Spiryt
2013-10-22, 11:14 AM
Look at the ideas of Lenin, vs. how the USSR turned out... Look to the Spanish Inquisition, or any Christian despot.

"Any Christian depot" is a huge stretch... And Lenin was also surprisingly honest, about what he was doing at times.

Wherever his actions about revolution etc. jazz were visibly not very compatible with Marxist doctrine, he changed doctrine 'temporarily' because and due to, and because... :smalltongue:

But generally I agree.

visigani
2013-10-22, 11:14 AM
The best way to respond is to let these threads die out and not feed the trolls.

Except I'm not trolling. I'm deeply DEEPLY concerned.

Look, the reason for the dramatic spike in interest in gaming is because it's the ideal trapped environment to advertise your ideology to a vast swathe of the populace.

Here's some dating advice for feminist men (http://www.mediacoop.ca/blog/norasamaran/19018). I read that and it makes my skin crawl. Yet it's the logical conclusion to the feminist ideology.

Feminists, for example see sexism in having Carrie Fisher tape down her breasts in Star Wars, but don't give a second thought to the six dozen men slaughtered (sometimes horrifically) on screen.

I find any ideology that humanizes one while dehumanizing the other deplorable.

0Megabyte
2013-10-22, 11:15 AM
So I start up the Holy Divine Radiance of the Faith of Not Sacrificing Children to the Blood God.

And every sunday we get together and sacrifice children to the blood god.

We say we don't. See, right in the name... Faith of Not Sacrificing Children to the Blood God...

But we do it anyway.

Feminism, especially in first world nations, is absolutely not working in favor of equality. I suppose it could be argued Feminism works to benefit women... but you might as well call it a supremacy movement at that point.

In the U.S. Women earn just under 60% of the degrees, live longer, are sentenced to 63% less time for the same crime, and are overwhelmingly the beneficiaries of government benefits and programs (i.e. the majority in college and getting the majority of scholarships as well as virtually all gender based scholarships) while we're facing a tidal wave of uneducated men.

Roughly a quarter of the male children of white college educated professionals can't read at grade level. And it just gets worse the further down you go.

And Feminists aren't heard to speak nary a peep.

So yeah, it's a Supremacist movement. And that's fine, it's a free country. If you want to support a supremacist movement be my guest.

I'd just rather you keep your ideology out of my games.

Stop lying. Now.

Do you really think getting 60% of the degrees matter when nobody will hire you? Do you really think that the sheer lack of respect women receive in the workplace, at home, in public, in the media, is all nonexistent?

Stop lying about what feminists want and believe. What you are doing is deeply offensive, and denigrating not just to women but to everyone.


Here's some dating advice for feminist men (http://www.mediacoop.ca/blog/norasamaran/19018). I read that and it makes my skin crawl. Yet it's the logical conclusion to the feminist ideology.

Gasp! A link talking about... sharing emotions! Being emotionally available to your partner! Communicating as equals! If you're hooking up with someone, actually communicate with them and make a clear effort to have actual consent, or else shove off! Don't threaten to leave your partner simply due to a moment of anger! Don't emotionally abuse your partner!

The horror, the horror... how will one be able to get together with women if one must... be emotionally honest with them and treat them as you would like to be treated?!

visigani
2013-10-22, 11:16 AM
Okay, then you're not anti-feminist. Unless this isn't true... we shall see.

Feminism is an ideology, female is a gender. I'm against an ideology that I believe is not what it says it is.[/QUOTE]

Uh huh. So feminism is not about fighting for equality for women, equality in jobs, reproductive rights, culture and respect?

[/QUOTE]


Try this: Men don't *have* reproductive rights. They don't even have the legal right to know they have reproduced.

So how can you say Feminists are fighting for equality in reproductive rights when the people they're comparing themselves to don't have any rights at all?

Juntao112
2013-10-22, 11:17 AM
Feminists, for example see sexism in having Carrie Fisher tape down her breasts in Star Wars, but don't give a second thought to the six dozen men slaughtered (sometimes horrifically) on screen.


You do realize both men and women served as stormtroopers at the time of A New Hope, right?

visigani
2013-10-22, 11:18 AM
Stop lying. Now.

Do you really think getting 60% of the degrees matter when nobody will hire you? Do you really think that the sheer lack of respect women receive in the workplace, at home, in public, in the media, is all nonexistent?

Stop lying about what feminists want and believe. What you are doing is deeply offensive, and denigrating not just to women but to everyone.

And there it is... "You disagree with Feminism? You hate women!"

And you're offended... you gloss over the whole "nearly 60% degrees part" and then respond with... feelings. You feel people won't hire you... you completely ignore the 63% shorter prison sentences for women.

Am I lying about that too (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/11/men-women-prison-sentence-length-gender-gap_n_1874742.html)?

I'd rather we keep this on the topic of Feminism in tabletop RPGs though. This is the rpg forum.

Janus
2013-10-22, 11:18 AM
And to think, in my mythology class they told me Janus was a myth.
:smallfrown:

0Megabyte
2013-10-22, 11:20 AM
And there it is... "You disagree with Feminism? You hate women!"

And you're offended... you gloss over the whole "nearly 60% degrees part" and then respond with... feelings. You feel people won't hire you... you completely ignore the 63% shorter prison sentences for women.

Am I lying about that too (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/11/men-women-prison-sentence-length-gender-gap_n_1874742.html)?

I'd rather we keep this on the topic of Feminism in tabletop RPGs though. This is the rpg forum.

"But black people aren't oppressed! See, Asians get marginalized too! Ergo, black people aren't oppressed!"

Astrella
2013-10-22, 11:21 AM
And there it is... "You disagree with Feminism? You hate women!"

And you're offended... you gloss over the whole "nearly 60% degrees part" and then respond with... feelings. You feel people won't hire you... you completely ignore the 63% shorter prison sentences for women.

Am I lying about that too (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/11/men-women-prison-sentence-length-gender-gap_n_1874742.html)?

I'd rather we keep this on the topic of Feminism in tabletop RPGs though. This is the rpg forum.

Except the prison sentences being shorter is something coming from society and not taking women as serious, it's not something that feminists strive for.

And yes, the education thing is an issue, but you still have to prove that feminism is actively striving to reduce the amount of men with degrees.

The Glyphstone
2013-10-22, 11:22 AM
Great Modthulhu: One thread, one topic. There is already a very closely related thread in progress, as noted, redirect this discussion there.