Psionics vs SR

[AzureKnight]

Ok last night a player and I discussed his idea for a psionic based character and he was distraught as to saying his ability to penetrate SR sucked. I told him SR didnt apply to psionics but he said his former dm told him otherwise.

Just wanted to see if I am in the wrong here does SR apply to psionics?

[Deaxsa]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#powerResistance


Spell resistance is equivalent to power resistance unless the Psionics Is Different option is in use

From the SRD, it literally says that it's up to the DM(but that the norm is that it DOES apply). for future reference, please post simple questions like this in the RAW thread.

[HalfQuart]

All DMs I've played with that allowed psionics used complete psionics-magic transparency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#combiningPsionicAndMagic alEffects) -- even more so than is spelled out in the SRD. For example psicraft and spellcraft are the same thing, as are knowledge (psionics) and knowledge (arcana). You can play it however you want, but I think it's a lot simpler to use transparency.

[Maginomicon]

Personally, I consider the listed Magic-Psionics opacity to be "incomplete". It might be useful for you to implement the following clarifications on the "Psionics Is Different" variant:



Psi-Like Abilities as Spell-Like Abilities: While psi-like abilities are very similar to spell-like abilities in many ways (such as provoking an attack of opportunity), Psi-Like Abilities are NOT considered a spell-like ability in every way, which means among other things that they cannot be affected by Empower Spell-Like Ability or Quicken Spell-Like Ability. There are now new feats for those purposes, such as “Empower Psi-Like Ability” and “Quicken Psi-Like Ability”.

Dispelling: Dispel magic has no effect when cast against any psionic power, ability, or item. Likewise, dispel psionics is only so much noise and light when manifested against a spell, effect, or item.

Mind-Affecting Spells and Powers: Spells and special abilities that protect the mind against enchantments cannot protect against psionic versions of the same effects. For instance, elves do not gain the +2 bonus on their Will saves against psionic charm that they do against magical charm person. Creatures protected from telepathy powers are vulnerable to enchantments.

Antimagic/Null Psionic Effects: Antimagic field does not hinder psionics, nor does null psionics field disrupt or suppress magic within its area.

Spell Resistance and Power Resistance: A demon’s spell resistance is no good against even minor powers manifested by a 1st-level psionic character (although saving throws apply as normal). Especially powerful psionic creatures have power resistance, which works against targeted powers but is useless against targeted spells.

Creature “Evolution”: In a world where psionic powers work but where spell resistance won’t protect against a power, powerful creatures must have both spell resistance and power resistance or quickly become extinct. The same can be said of psionic creatures with special protection against mental energies, but none against magic. Take advantage of the following modifications when using this option.

All book-listed creatures with psionic abilities gain power resistance equal to their spell resistance, if any (and vice versa). However, Creatures with spell resistance 10 or higher and no power resistance gain power resistance equal to their spell resistance minus 10 (and vice versa).

Specialty Spells and Powers: Specialty spells and powers must exist that allow the disparate energies to manipulate each other on a limited scale. To reflect this, this book introduces some new spells and powers:

New Spells:

Detect Psionics
Dispel Psionics
Dispel Psionics, Greater

New Powers:

Detect Magic
Dispel Magic
Dispel Magic, Greater





Empower Psi-Like Ability [General]

Prerequisite: Psi-like ability at manifester level 6th or higher.

Benefit: Choose one of the creature’s psi-like abilities, subject to the restrictions below. The creature can use that ability as an empowered psi-like ability three times per day (or less, if the ability is normally usable only once or twice per day).

When a creature uses an empowered psi-like ability, all variable, numeric effects of the spell-like ability are increased by one half. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected. Psi-like abilities without random variables are not affected.

This feat can be used only on a psi-like ability that can not have increased effects due to augmentation. The creature can only select a psi-like ability that either is a power or is duplicating a power with a level less than or equal to half its manifester level (round down) -2. For a summary, see the table below.
{table=head] Power Level | Manifester Level to Empower
1st | 6th |
2nd | 8th |
3rd | 10th |
4th | 12th |
5th | 14th |
6th | 16th |
7th | 18th |
8th | 20th |
9th | - |
[/table]

Special: This feat can be taken multiple times. Each time it is taken, the creature can apply it to a different one of its psi-like abilities.




Quicken Psi-Like Ability [General]

Prerequisite: Psi-like ability at manifester level 10th or higher.

Benefit: Choose one of the creature’s psi-like abilities, subject to the restrictions described below. The creature can use that ability as a quickened psi-like ability three times per day (or less, if the ability is normally usable only once or twice per day).

Using a quickened psi-like ability is a swift action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The creature can perform another action—including the use of another psi-like ability—in the same round that it uses a quickened psi-like ability. The creature may use only one quickened psi-like ability per round.

The creature can only select a psi-like ability duplicating a power with a level less than or equal to half its manifester level (round down) -4. For a summary, see the table below.
{table=head] Power Level | Manifester Level to Quicken
1st | 10th |
2nd | 12th |
3rd | 14th |
4th | 16th |
5th | 18th |
6th | 20th |
7th | - |
8th | - |
9th | - |
[/table]

In addition, a psi-like ability that duplicates a power with a manifesting time greater than 1 full round cannot be quickened.

Normal: Normally the use of a psi-like ability requires a standard action and provokes an attack of opportunity unless noted otherwise.

Special: This feat can be taken multiple times. Each time it is taken, the creature can apply it to a different one of its psi-like abilities.


If you want the texts of the new spells/powers listed, PM me.

[shadow_archmagi]

Just wanted to see if I am in the wrong here does SR apply to psionics?

As mentioned above, SR does indeed apply to psi unless your DM has chosen not to have it apply. Having psionics be different opens up a can of worms that most DMs don't want to deal with. (Sorry, dispel magic doesn't work on *my* buffs!)

[Devronq]

I agree with everyone else if psionic magic transparency rules aaren't in effect in grants a huge advantage to psionis that can cause balance issues

[Feint's End]

All DMs I've played with that allowed psionics used complete psionics-magic transparency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#combiningPsionicAndMagic alEffects) -- even more so than is spelled out in the SRD. For example psicraft and spellcraft are the same thing, as are knowledge (psionics) and knowledge (arcana). You can play it however you want, but I think it's a lot simpler to use transparency.

Na I disagree ... too much transparency takes something from both. I like the changes pathfinder did but that's one of the things they pretty much screwed up. There still should be things like Psicraft, UPD and Knowledge (Psionics).
I'll give you that that's somewhat dependant on your world but if you implement those changes it becomes pretty much the same (magic and psionics that is). I've always liked that they are two completely different systems. Also .... Knowledge (Arcana) and Knowledge (Psionics) should be nothing alike (like ... in no case) since they are for completely different things. If you apply Knowledge (Arcana) to powers and psionics that means that those are "arcane" and that could lead to some stupid discussion ... oh nonononono don't go that far.

[Sarethus]

Na I disagree ... too much transparency takes something from both. I like the changes pathfinder did but that's one of the things they pretty much screwed up. There still should be things like Psicraft, UPD and Knowledge (Psionics).
I'll give you that that's somewhat dependant on your world but if you implement those changes it becomes pretty much the same (magic and psionics that is). I've always liked that they are two completely different systems. Also .... Knowledge (Arcana) and Knowledge (Psionics) should be nothing alike (like ... in no case) since they are for completely different things. If you apply Knowledge (Arcana) to powers and psionics that means that those are "arcane" and that could lead to some stupid discussion ... oh nonononono don't go that far.

Well our table had Psi-Magic transparency or at least semi transparency.

Magic users take a further half penalty on their caster level when dispelling Psionics and vice versa for Psionic users against magic.

Knowledge[Arcana] can be used to know some information about Psionics with a -5 penalty and can't be used on a DC higher then 15 (Again vice versa for Knowledge[Psionics]).

Same thing as Knowledge skills for Spellcraft and UMD and their Psionic equivilants.

One special exception though: Rogues and Bards could use their UMD score on both Magic and Psionic items.

[Ansem]

Suck up the fact you can't break through stuff that needs magic.
Laugh at later level when nothing has Psychic resistance.

[Bogardan_Mage]

Na I disagree ... too much transparency takes something from both. I like the changes pathfinder did but that's one of the things they pretty much screwed up. There still should be things like Psicraft, UPD and Knowledge (Psionics).
I'll give you that that's somewhat dependant on your world but if you implement those changes it becomes pretty much the same (magic and psionics that is). I've always liked that they are two completely different systems. Also .... Knowledge (Arcana) and Knowledge (Psionics) should be nothing alike (like ... in no case) since they are for completely different things. If you apply Knowledge (Arcana) to powers and psionics that means that those are "arcane" and that could lead to some stupid discussion ... oh nonononono don't go that far.
It's basically a metagame reason (as, in some ways, is Transparency itself I guess). The PCs should be able to interact with the world around them and if that world includes psionics and the party does not (or, perhaps less commonly, vice versa), they need some transparency to do that. There's certainly flavour reason why the Rogue with UMD shouldn't be able to use a Dorje just as easily as a Wand, but from a metagame standpoint that's kind of cheating him out of his treasure, is it? And if the players do try to keep up with the psionics they're encountering it means doubling up on some skills and feats.

I do, however, think Knowledge (Psionics) should be separate from Knowledge (Arcana), if only because Knowledge (Religion) is. When divine magic is more different than psionics you've taken transparency too far.

[Brookshw]

snip

Huh, that table of quicken spells tips the scales a bit towards psionics, a 20th level wizard wouldn't be able to quicken a level 6th spell (baring DMM, etc).

[Maginomicon]

Huh, that table of quicken spells tips the scales a bit towards psionics, a 20th level wizard wouldn't be able to quicken a level 6th spell (baring DMM, etc).
It's identical to the Quicken SLA feat in all the obvious ways, so I wouldn't think it changes that much. There's not many ways (if any) to get a 6th-level power as a PLA.

[shadow_archmagi]

Yeah, the metagame works a lot better if you have transparency. It might be "interesting" to play a game where everything was opaque- Divine, Arcane, Incarnum, Psionics, Binding, etc. were all completely incapable of interacting with each other.

[truemane]

I ran a game with complete opacity once. It was interesting. But the setting was designed around this idea, and so it worked well.

In a standard setting, it can create a lot of headache. And, even worse, it can can create headaches that are hard to anticipate. It does, however, make Cerebremancer a perfectly valid class choice.

[Person_Man]

If you're going to have a game with magical/psionic/supernatural powerful stuff which is far better then mundane stuff, then the game needs to include mechanisms for defeating the powerful stuff. (Or every player needs access to some of the powerful stuff). It's basically just an elaborate rock-paper-scissors-lizard-Spock. Everything needs something that defeats it, and everything should defeat something else.

Magic and Psionics have the advantage of defeating most other things. So as a DM, it's important to keep some tools in the game that you can use to blunt or defeat them. You can make the decision to parse our SR from PR. But doing so just makes psionics a lot more powerful.