Using gelatinous cubes for teleportation protection?

[Demonic_Spoon]

I seem to recall this being mentioned before, but basically you just fill every available space of a fortress with gelatinous cubes and use a variant of oozeriding amulets to get around? Would this be effective in blocking teleportation as there is no open space to teleport to?

[Captnq]

I...

Suppose.

If your ceilings were all exactly Gelatinous cube high and everything was stone and you never wanted to store anything organic anywhere. There were no doors because they could never open or close. But yeah, that should work.

Of course I could just show up with a metamagic Chain rod and chain ooze puppet a few times making your army of Gelatinous cubes my personal play things.

[Yuki Akuma]

Feeding that many gelatinous oozes would be a real chore. You'd have to do it personally or get minions with their own variant oozeriding amulets to do it.

[shadow_archmagi]

I seem to recall this being mentioned before, but basically you just fill every available space of a fortress with gelatinous cubes and use a variant of oozeriding amulets to get around? Would this be effective in blocking teleportation as there is no open space to teleport to?

I suppose so!


Feeding that many gelatinous oozes would be a real chore. You'd have to do it personally or get minions with their own variant oozeriding amulets to do it.

Just open portals to the elemental plane of meat at regular intervals.

[AntiTrust]

I suppose so!



Just open portals to the elemental plane of meat at regular intervals.

I like how its an elemental plane, not just a normal plane, but meat is now a new base level element in the universe

[Ravens_cry]

I like how its an elemental plane, not just a normal plane, but meat is now a new base level element in the universe
It's the element of living things. Meat is made of meat.

[Red Fel]

It's the element of living things. Meat is made of meat.

They're made out of meat. (http://www.terrybisson.com/page6/page6.html)

[Psyren]

1) The attackers can simply make themselves incorporeal before porting in. They can even port into your walls this way.

2) Oozes are creatures, so the attackers could just as easily wish some of them out of your fortress to create an entry point.

[Yuki Akuma]

1) The attackers can simply make themselves incorporeal before porting in. They can even port into your walls this way.

Could you cite where the rules say incorporeal creatures can teleport into solid matter? I can't find anything that says they can.

[Talderas]

Would this be effective in blocking teleportation as there is no open space to teleport to?

Teleport and Greater Teleport have no text in the spell description that permit you to teleport inside a wall. They also have no text which prevent you from teleporting into a square occupied by a creature.

The method in question does not prevent teleportation into a fortress. What it does do is causes the teleporter to end up in a square with a gelatinous cube which allow it to immediate engulf the creature. Since it doesn't have the ooze riding amulet this is likely extremely dangerous to the teleporter.

Since teleport, greater teleport, and teleportation circle have no statement for handling teleporting into a solid object, that's not a valid destination for you. Dimension door does contain text permiting teleporting into a solid square.

[Demonic_Spoon]

1) The attackers can simply make themselves incorporeal before porting in. They can even port into your walls this way.
Amulet of Natural Weapons Ghosttouch for the cubes?


2) Oozes are creatures, so the attackers could just as easily wish some of them out of your fortress to create an entry point.

They get will saves and SR applies. Both these can be boosted.

[Talderas]

1) The attackers can simply make themselves incorporeal before porting in. They can even port into your walls this way.

2) Oozes are creatures, so the attackers could just as easily wish some of them out of your fortress to create an entry point.

Being incorporeal does not let you teleport into a wall. You have to be on the etheral plane to do so. Teleport spells, unless otherwise specified, do not permit you to teleport into a solid object. Being incorporeal does not make a square a valid target just because you can pass through it. You can teleport into a wall while on the ethereal plane because the wall, while seen on the ethereal plane, does not create a solid object spot.

[Cambrian]

What would you keep in this fortress? Wouldn't the cubes eat anything organic that wasn't on your person?

[Psyren]

Being incorporeal does not let you teleport into a wall. You have to be on the etheral plane to do so. Teleport spells, unless otherwise specified, do not permit you to teleport into a solid object. Being incorporeal does not make a square a valid target just because you can pass through it. You can teleport into a wall while on the ethereal plane because the wall, while seen on the ethereal plane, does not create a solid object spot.

Actually, that restriction only applies to bringing creatures/objects to you:


A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

And from RC, they can occupy the outer edge of a wall just fine:


An incorporeal creature can also occupy the same space as a solid object without being inside that object, and it typically gains cover from doing so.

Or even the same space as one of the cubes themselves:


An incorporeal creature can occupy the same space as a corporeal creature, unless the corporeal creature is entirely surrounded by a force effect.



They get will saves and SR applies. Both these can be boosted.

Save DCs and CL can be boosted too, and actually it's much easier to boost CL and DCs than SR and saves. Unbeatable DCs are easy if the enemy caster uses Taint for instance.

[Talderas]

Actually, that restriction only applies to bringing creatures/objects to you:

Unless RC is adding new rules that clauses exists nowhere within the description of teleport, greater teleport, or the teleportation subschool.


And from RC, they can occupy the outer edge of a wall just fine:

Or even the same space as one of the cubes themselves:

This has nothing to do with whether or not an incorporeal creature can occupy the square. It's a question of whether the square you're attempting to teleport to is a valid destination. Since the spell provides no mechanic for teleporting into a solid object a solid object is not a valid destination regardless of whether the create is corporeal or incorporeal.

[Psyren]

Unless RC is adding new rules that clauses exists nowhere within the description of teleport, greater teleport, or the teleportation subschool.

Er, I quoted the teleportation line right from the SRD.

What RC did add was stuff to incorporeals, clarifying that they can occupy the same space as other creatures and even objects.



This has nothing to do with whether or not an incorporeal creature can occupy the square. It's a question of whether the square you're attempting to teleport to is a valid destination.

I know that - which is again why I quoted the "teleportation" subschool from the SRD. All the spell says is that you need a clear mental image of your destination, and Wish doesn't even have that requirement.

[Radar]

Greater Planeshift would still allow intrusion, since Planeshift does not have any safety clauses as Teleport spells do and the Greater version sends you precisely where you want. Jellies might still be an obstacle, but only if the raiding party forgot the Scry part of Scry&Die.

It is still worth mentioning, that Greater Planeshift is an 8th level spell, so it comes online at the same time as Dimension Lock. This means that, if you are of too low level to use Dimension Lock, then equal-level threats can't port in from afar into the jelly-infested fortress.

[Talderas]

Er, I quoted the teleportation line right from the SRD.

What RC did add was stuff to incorporeals, clarifying that they can occupy the same space as other creatures and even objects.

I see it now and the line doesn't matter. That clause only applies to creatures called to you (calling) or brought into being (summoning) or creatures teleported (teleport) to your location. It doesn't apply to teleporting from your location.


I know that - which is again why I quoted the "teleportation" subschool from the SRD. All the spell says is that you need a clear mental image of your destination, and Wish doesn't even have that requirement.

Irrelevant. Every teleportation spell contains descriptions of the outcome of the teleport. None of these outcomes permit a creature to teleport into a solid object and solid object is not a property based on the creature casting the spell.

[Psyren]

I see it now and the line doesn't matter. That clause only applies to creatures called to you (calling) or brought into being (summoning) or creatures teleported (teleport) to your location. It doesn't apply to teleporting from your location.

Precisely - there's no line at all about teleporting from your location - so the spell itself has to govern that, and all Teleport says is that "you must have some clear idea of the location and layout."



None of these outcomes permit a creature to teleport into a solid object and solid object is not a property based on the creature casting the spell.

Do you have a source for that?

[Kane0]

You guys are thinking about it all wrong. Gelatinous cubes are made to have people inside them, its their sole function. If you teleport into one, thats exactly the same as walking into one, and weve all done that before.

[Talderas]

Greater Planeshift would still allow intrusion, since Planeshift does not have any safety clauses as Teleport spells do and the Greater version sends you precisely where you want. Jellies might still be an obstacle, but only if the raiding party forgot the Scry part of Scry&Die.

It is still worth mentioning, that Greater Planeshift is an 8th level spell, so it comes online at the same time as Dimension Lock. This means that, if you are of too low level to use Dimension Lock, then equal-level threats can't port in from afar into the jelly-infested fortress.

Plane shift puts you between five and one hundred miles from the intended destination. It's not really a good choice to use.

--


Precisely - there's no line at all about teleporting from your location - so the spell itself has to govern that, and all Teleport says is that "you must have some clear idea of the location and layout."



Do you have a source for that?

The text of teleport itself. You have to have seen the location at least once in order to teleport to it. Since the target location is inside a wall you would have to have some means to see inside the wall in order for that to be a valid destination. Humorously enough, it might be possible to teleport into a wall if you're incorporeal if you get an "Off target" roll since it requires you to be safely teleported which teleporting into a bunch of gelatinous cubes might not be construed as safely.

[Zubrowka74]

If you are incorporeal to begin with, why do you need to teleport ? Can't you just walk through the wall ? Not fabulous enough ?

[Radar]

Plane shift puts you between five and one hundred miles from the intended destination. It's not really a good choice to use.
That's way I mentioned Greater Planeshift (from Planar Handbook), which specificaly sends you exactly, where you want without error.

[Talderas]

That's way I mentioned Greater Planeshift (from Planar Handbook), which specificaly sends you exactly, where you want without error.

Greater planeshift requires you to have visited the location. Presuming that visited means physically seen rather than seen with a spell, you still wouldn't be able to teleport INSIDE a wall.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Filling your fortress with Geleatinous cubes and keeping them alive sounds more expensive then using a Weird Stone.

[Psyren]

The text of teleport itself. You have to have seen the location at least once in order to teleport to it. Since the target location is inside a wall you would have to have some means to see inside the wall in order for that to be a valid destination.

Point - so what is blocking them is the opacity of the wall rather than its solidity. I'll take that. (Note however that still doesn't block Wish from dropping you in a wall if you want it to.)

So, all you need then is to have seen your destination and be able to occupy the square. Thus they can teleport inside the cubes themselves, by visualizing, scrying on or having seen prior the space the cubes now occupy.

They can also teleport to squares occupies by objects (as per my middle quote), and those can be seen easily as well. So they can teleport into the same square as a door, bookshelf, windowpane, treasure chest, bottle, any object in the castle at all (including whatever object you were trying to protect there.)

[Talderas]

Point - so what is blocking them is the opacity of the wall rather than its solidity. I'll take that. (Note however that still doesn't block Wish from dropping you in a wall if you want it to.)

So, all you need then is to have seen your destination and be able to occupy the square. Thus they can teleport inside the cubes themselves, by visualizing, scrying on or having seen prior the space the cubes now occupy.

They can also teleport to squares occupies by objects (as per my middle quote), and those can be seen easily as well. So they can teleport into the same square as a door, bookshelf, windowpane, treasure chest, bottle, any object in the castle at all (including whatever object you were trying to protect there.)

Correct. Specifically I was talking about teleport and not wish. Teleport contains no shunting clause so if you teleport into a square which contains a solid object you teleport in a fashion where you aren't intersecting the object at all. Squeezed under a table, whatever. Dimension door permits you to end up in a square occupied by a solid body (creature) and it shunts you next to it for damage. Ethereal jaunt permits you to materialize in a square occupied by a solid material (it describes a wall) in which case shunting is evoked.

Since there are rules for creatures occupying the same square (hello engulf gelatinous cube) and spells like teleport and ethereal jaunt have no clauses preventing you from ending in a square occupied by a creature, you can teleport into the same square as the cube and immediated be subjected to the cube's engulf attack. If you are incorporeal then you wouldn't be subjected. I also never took issue with teleporting into another creature only within a solid material like a wall.

Regarding wish.... Wish's transport also doesn't contain a shunting clause so if you wish someone inside a solid object they're stuck....

[Psyren]

Specifically I was talking about teleport and not wish.

I was using "port" which was shorthand for any effect that moves you across long distances instantaneously. Sorry I wasn't clear.



Regarding wish.... Wish's transport also doesn't contain a shunting clause so if you wish someone inside a solid object they're stuck....

The base rule though is that you can't occupy the same square as an obstacle that blocks movement. Incorporeal creatures then get around that rule.

[Crasical]

I seem to recall this being mentioned before, but basically you just fill every available space of a fortress with gelatinous cubes and use a variant of oozeriding amulets to get around? Would this be effective in blocking teleportation as there is no open space to teleport to?

Aside from questions of rule legality in the ability to teleport into creature occupied spaces, and questions of practicality, in not being able to have any organic matter stored or used in construction, there's also going to be the price. I don't know what the market price for a gelatinous cube is, but the instant you start needing to give them amulets to attack incorporeal attackers then the budget needed for this defense spirals out of control.


Oozes are creatures, so the attackers could just as easily wish some of them out of your fortress to create an entry point.

If your attackers have Wish on tap they can probably also use it to teleport you into the sun, so.

[Psyren]

If your attackers have Wish on tap they can probably also use it to teleport you into the sun, so.

Sure, but a gelatinous cube is unlikely to have my saving throws, immunity, array of contingencies etc.

[ArqArturo]

Behold, the Temple of Elemental Jell-O!

[Psyren]

Behold, the Temple of Elemental Jell-O!

...Jellemental Evil? :smalltongue:

[Kane0]

I fully support the idea of a Temple of Jellomental Evil.

[ArqArturo]

...Jellemental Evil? :smalltongue:

I am clapping right now. You sir, deserve an internet :smallbiggrin:.