Player wants to be a Dire Wolf...

[Xerlith]

...And I am totally happy with that. It's an interesting concept, since they're going to later be a mount for the other PC, a paladin.
And has just heard about the Celestial template, which I'm having mixed feelings about.

But it's been bothering me how to NOT make the Wolf player suffer from a massive LA. I do have Savage Species, it didn't really help. So, long story short, how do I help them have fun playing an animal?

Finally, what intelligence score would such a PC have? Should I just awaken them and call it a day?

The rest of the party will consist of the rider - a Crusader, going into Prestige paladin, a wizard (most probably evoker/transmuter) and a character that the fourth person hasn't yet decided on. I assume skillmonkey.

[Fouredged Sword]

Have you taken a look at the shapeshifter variant of the druid? If not, look to see if that will meet your needs. A strong argument can be made for a restoration ACF + shapeshifter ACF druid who never leaves animal form and uses his spells to heal himself through the restoration ACF and acting as a melee tank.

Another good option is to have the DM loosen the cohort restriction on the warg race. Now you have a LA 1 race who has great stats, but is restricted to barding for armor and cannot wield weapons without a mouthpick. Buy off the LA and go about your buisness. Make it a racial class and buy off the LA.

Also, note, Wargs are medium so they can only be the mount of a small creature. Maybe extend the racial class to 7 HD to allow for a large warg, and add in the size increases bonus to stats and large size over the 3 extra levels.

Thirdly, the cheese route involves Fiend of Possesion and getting leadership, then possessing your cohort warg to make a super warg.

Class

Full BAB, Good Fort and Reflex
1d10 HD,
2+int skill points

Level
1 - Racial Skill bonuses, racial stats Str +2, Con +2, Wis +2, Int-4, 30ft move speed, alertness, +1 natural armor, scent
2 - Trip, Str +2, Dex +2, +10ft move speed
3 - Con +2, Wis +2, Track, +1 natural armor
- 3000 exp tax for LA buy off
4 - Str +2, +10ft move speed
5 - Str +2, Natural Armor +1
6 - Str +2, Con +2, Natural Armor +1
7 - Str +4, Con +2, Large Size

At level 7 he is exactly a 7HD warg with the 1la bought off.

I would suggest he then go into his choice of class, say ranger or barbarian.

[Xerlith]

I think I haven't been precise enough. I AM the one who DMs (a cookie pending for someone here).

And the player doesn't want to play a druid or something. They want to be a wolf. Period. :smallsigh:

I thought about just giving them refluffed and a bit shifted around Worg monster class (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2834.0), but I'm curious if there's another, better way.

Also, if there is the Celestial template done the way Oslecamo did some templates/monsters, I'll be more than happy to be pointed to it. :smallbiggrin:

[Ezekiul]

Look up the noble wild PDF, it goes into PC as animals very well. Or if you're not afraid of homebrew material a useful link I like to use is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142724)

The noble wild typically has animal as the race, then racial classes to improve the animal. most classes are less than 5 levels and typically entail something like size increases, ability increases, or gaining special abilities.

Oor you can just make him an awakened Dire Wolf and have him invest X number of HD into the magical beast subtype (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#magicalBeastType) before being able to enter other classes/gain templates aka warbeast/magebred.

[JW86]

Breaking Warg?

I see your cookie, and raise you another.. One does not simply Warg into Hodor.

I have nothing of use to contribute, sorry. :smalleek:

[Averis Vol]

Breaking Warg?

I see your cookie, and raise you another.. One does not simply Warg into Hodor.

I have nothing of use to contribute, sorry. :smalleek:

LoTR and a song of fire and ice.

with that out of the way and my cookies collected, I have to agree with Ezekiul, that seems like the best course.

[Xerlith]

Look up the noble wild PDF, it goes into PC as animals very well. Or if you're not afraid of homebrew material a useful link I like to use is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142724)

As I said, I've already ransacked through all this stuff here + on minmaxboards. Didn't find anything except for the Worg and (maybe) the Bear classes.



The noble wild typically has animal as the race, then racial classes to improve the animal. most classes are less than 5 levels and typically entail something like size increases, ability increases, or gaining special abilities.

Saying Noble Wild you mean the 3rd party PF book? I know of nobody who has it and I'm rather reluctant to spending 20 dollars on it.



Oor you can just make him an awakened Dire Wolf and have him invest X number of HD into the magical beast subtype (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#magicalBeastType) before being able to enter other classes/gain templates aka warbeast/magebred.

And this is something I'm desperately trying to avoid. I don't want the player sitting on the generic LA Buyoff levels while everyone else gains cool abilities.

[Red Fel]

As an alternative, you could consider the trade-off and give the player what amounts to a free LA.

Assuming the character is a magical beast, but not a magical talking Disney beast, it loses access to most weapons, normal gear, the ability to engage in many social roles/rolls, and access to various spells/abilities which might require hands/thumbs/speech. That's a substantial handicap on its own. The character more or less becomes limited to combat, until/unless you develop a means for it to do what everyone else does naturally.

Get your mind out of the gutter.

For all of that, I don't think it's unreasonable to give a small free LA to the player. I think +1 or +2, under the circumstances (I don't know how much the Dire Wolf would require) is reasonable.

That said, I also don't know the base stats of such a creature. For all I know, they will totally dominate combat at low levels. In which case, you may very well go for a racial level progression instead.

But given how handicapped the character will be out of combat, I think cutting some slack and offering a small level adjustment for free is reasonable.

[Xerlith]

As an alternative, you could consider the trade-off and give the player what amounts to a free LA.

Assuming the character is a magical beast, but not a magical talking Disney beast, it loses access to most weapons, normal gear, the ability to engage in many social roles/rolls, and access to various spells/abilities which might require hands/thumbs/speech. That's a substantial handicap on its own. The character more or less becomes limited to combat, until/unless you develop a means for it to do what everyone else does naturally.

Get your mind out of the gutter.

For all of that, I don't think it's unreasonable to give a small free LA to the player. I think +1 or +2, under the circumstances (I don't know how much the Dire Wolf would require) is reasonable.

That said, I also don't know the base stats of such a creature. For all I know, they will totally dominate combat at low levels. In which case, you may very well go for a racial level progression instead.

But given how handicapped the character will be out of combat, I think cutting some slack and offering a small level adjustment for free is reasonable.

Yep, I've been thinking about it and considering it as the best option from the beginning. It just seems so... Crude. :smalltongue:

[Forrestfire]

My advice? Let them take the Dire Wolf (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a) levels of the werewolf monster class sans LA. If you want to give more than that for the six HD, maybe toss a small maneuver progression onto there (Setting Sun throws would fit a big wolf grabbing someone and tossing them around, or maybe just give them some generic Iron Heart or Tiger Claw attack moves), or grant some fighter bonus feats to go with it.

They might be a bit stronger early on, but it will even out by the time the rest of the classes start getting real class features around levels, and by the time the party hits 6+, the character should be about even, given they will have one attack and no iteratives, etc.

[Xerlith]

Stuff.

Ooooooh! This actually seems really good. I think it's the best option and I'll go for it unless I decide to play around with it a bit. Thanks!

[TiaC]

My advice? Let them take the Dire Wolf (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a) levels of the werewolf monster class sans LA. If you want to give more than that for the six HD, maybe toss a small maneuver progression onto there (Setting Sun throws would fit a big wolf grabbing someone and tossing them around, or maybe just give them some generic Iron Heart or Tiger Claw attack moves), or grant some fighter bonus feats to go with it.

They might be a bit stronger early on, but it will even out by the time the rest of the classes start getting real class features around levels, and by the time the party hits 6+, the character should be about even, given they will have one attack and no iteratives, etc.

Personally, I'd rate a human intelligence Dire wolf as ECL 5. That strength bonus is huge, but it doesn't have much else going for it.

[Waker]

Progressing as an Awakened Dire Wolf isn't too terrible. The end result would be 8D10hd, full BAB, good Fort/Refl, Dark and Low-Light Vision, not to mention becoming Large-sized at level 7. I would suggest ignoring any LA out of hand, since it really isn't necessary. You could consider bumping up the skill points to 4 or even 6 if you feel it necessary. Perhaps give them some Ranger and/or Barbarian features, like Rage or Combat Style (Improved Natural Attack (Bite)) for free since they are hardly game-breaking.
The biggest issue will be his lack of thumbs.

[Forrestfire]

I'd also suggest allowing the player to qualify for the Rapidstrike line of feats later along the line, so they aren't totally screwed in the full attack department.

Maybe give the player a refluffed Ancestral Relic as well, or let them take it if they want, and treat the wolf's jaws as a masterwork weapon for the purposes of the feat--that way the wolf can "sacrifice" magic items (I'm having a mental image of the wolf eating magic items to gain their power) to keep up in the WBL department in a useful way.

What's the player's goal with this character? Anything other than just "a dire wolf?" Because something neat to offer/add in as a perk might be to give them the abilities of a Zhentarim Soldier at 3rd and 5th levels in the dire wolf class, to play up the fact they they are literally a "big bad wolf." Or something. I know that I'd have fun playing a big scary dire wolf :smallbiggrin:


(If you and they like the last idea there, maybe waive the "evil alignment" requirement of ghost-faced killer and direct them towards an avenging executioner/ghost-faced killer fear build. So they can be a terrifying, phasing wolf. Pretty much a horror movie monster there, ridden by a Paladin, who would have the most well-fluffed aid-another actions for intimidate ever: "I could set my wolf on you.")


In any case, good luck, I hope it turns out fun.

[Fax Celestis]

Tell your player to take Leadership and have his cohort and followers be other wolves so he can start a pack.

[visigani]

In something or other from Faerun...

Look at the players Level Adjustment... we'll say it's 4.

That player takes a -1 penalty to skill and ability checks, attack rolls and saving throws, DC for any spells he casts, and a -1 to any bonus armor class granted by race (i.e. dodge bonuses, natural armor, and so forth). He also takes a -1 to his racial level adjustment.

Give him base intelligence 3, the natural lycanthrope template, and the feral template.


A wolf, even a dire wolf, as a PC is going to have a lot of difficulty.... and though he'll be benefiting from the paladins class feature it's assumed he won't be getting any of his own.

The lycanthrope template (minus being able to turn human) gives +2 wisdom, +2 Natural Armor, and +10 Silver/DR (which should also be subject to the above -penalties). Which certainly isn't stellar for a +3 level adjustment...

Enter Feral... we're adding Feral because it has abilities that improve over character level which will provide the semblance of a real class.... but we're giving him the Feral Template for free

So to start our Dire Wolf won't be so dire and he'll take a -9 penalty to skills, saves, and so forth.

Consider allowing the player to start out at first level as a small dire pup, rather than a wolf... base the changes on srd's improving monsters he'll drop two size categories and if I'm reading this right will lose 12 strength, 6 con, and gain 4 dexterity.

He'll still be phenomenally strong and tough (and dumber than a box of hammers) all things considered, but he won't dominate everyone. He still starts with 6 HD though...

Every character level he loses -1 penalty... and he increases in size at level 3 and level 6.

Instead of bonus HD from the Paladin's class feature he gains a bonus feat from the fighter's bonus feat list every time he would increase his strength and natural armor, using the paladins class levels in special mount as his fighter level when determining what beats he is eligible for.


tl;dr

Gains Lycanthrope and Feral Template.
Base Intelligence begins at 3.
Starts as small size losing 12 str, 6 con, and gaining 4 dex.
Begins play with -9 penalty to attacks, saves, ability checks, Natural Armor Class (and variant) DR/Silver.
At every level reduces -1 penalty by 1.
At 3rd level becomes medium size, and at 6th level becomes large size.
Instead of bonus HD gains a bonus fighter feat at 5th, 8th, 11th, and 15th levels using the paladins class levels in special mount to determine what feats the Dire Wolf is eligible for. Still gains special abilities, strength bonus, and natural armor bonus from the paladin class feature.

[Xerlith]

Actually, thanks to the link Forrestfire provided and the propositions that were given here, as well as greatly inspiring myself by the Oslecamo's Monster Classes, I've slapped together this:


Dire Wolf, Awakened
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+2|
+2|
+0|+2 STR, +2 Dex, Wolf Body, Trip

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+3|
+0|+1 Str, +1 Con, Skills, Bonus Feat (Run), Scent

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+1|+1 Str, +1 Con, Growth, Bonus Feat (Awareness), Track[/table]

HD: d10
Skills: 4 + Int (x4 at first level).
Class Skills: Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Survival

Class abilities

Wolf Body: An Awakened Dire Wolf loses all other racial bonuses, and gains magical beast traits. It has a land speed of 40', darkvision 60', low light vision, and a natural armour bonus equal to its Con mod.
It is a medium sized magical beast with base speed of 40 foot, and a natural weapon bite attack dealing 1d6+1,5 Str modifier damage. Dire Wolves have no limbs capable of fine manipulation.

Scent: As the SRD ability.

Track: As the SRD feat.

Trip: A 2nd level a dire wolf that hits with a bite attack can attempt to trip its opponent as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking anattack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the dire wolf.

Skills: An awakened dire wolf has a +1/2HD racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot checks.

Growth: At 3rd level, the Dire Wolves category becomes Large.

Do you think it's balanced enough? I want it to be a base for growth, not a tax.

EDIT: I think this should go to the Homebrew category, though.

[Forrestfire]

Trip would be just a normal trip attempt, the number given in the stat block is simply that wolf's mod for it.

Other than that, does the size increase up Strength and lower Dexterity as a normal one does? If not, it feels kinda... I dunno. I feel like a total of +4 Strength for what is supposed to be a dire wolf is somewhat off, thematically (I mean, orcs have +4 str). It also feels weak as a set of three levels, since while the saves are alright, large size is actually a penalty in many cases. Especially since you have no thumbs.

Personally, if I were making the character, I would not want to take those three levels in the class; I'd just play a refluffed Orc psychic warrior/whatever with expansion, which amounts to pretty much the same thing, but trading speed for generally superior combat ability and utility.


On the topic category, I think it still fits for 3.5. It's a proposed way for someone to play a character, but we're still in the realm of discussing minor house rules instead of full-blown homebrew. I think.

[Xerlith]

Well, I've posted the class. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16269434#post16269434)

And for your arguments - i see what you mean. But on the other hand, I guess I'm a bit afraid of the player dominating the early levels through the sheer physical stats. I mean, the dire wolf we see in the SRD has 6 HD, this class here offers three...
Well, anyway, I've doubled the Strength bonuses on each level, now I guess I should think about making it more... Attractive overall.


Trip would be just a normal trip attempt, the number given in the stat block is simply that wolf's mod for it.

Aaarrgh... That's what I get for copypasting without checking.

On a sidenote, the player is obliged to take only the first level. Rest is not obligatory. :smallbiggrin:

[Forrestfire]

On a sidenote, the player is obliged to take only the first level. Rest is not obligatory. :smallbiggrin:

Oh, in that case, the class you posted in the homebrew section is definitely something I'd take in this situation. I can still see having no thumbs becoming a problem, but much less so if they still get actual class features, and turn large later on, at a point where it's actually useful.

[Person_Man]

Interestingly enough, if you read through the various myths and stories, there are versions of werewolves that start as actual wolves, that learn to become men and/or hybrid monsters. I think it would fit well into a D&D game.

My thoughts at a homebrew solution:

d12 hit dice
Full BAB
Strong Fort and Ref Save
6 Skill Points per level: Hide, Jump, Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (nature), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot, Sense Motive, Survival, Swim.

Start as medium size, 50 ft movement, bite, low light vision, scent, Alertness, Run, Wild Empathy. As a wolf, you can't use most equipment, and are treated as a normal wolf by most NPCs.

Odd levels gain a natural attack, a related special ability, or a Bonus Feat which improves natural attacks: Claw (can be added up to 4 times), Slam, Trip, Rake, Improved Grab, Trample, Pounce, Multiattack, Improved Natural Weapon, +5 ft reach with natural weapons, etc.

Even levels (except level 6/12/18): Gain one of the following abilities of your choice: DR/Silver = 1/2 your hit dice, Fast Healing = 1/2 hit dice, natural armor bonus = Con bonus, or any Barbarian, Ranger, or Monk class ability or related PrC ability that is ECL and thematically appropriate.

At level 6 gain Alternate Form: Can to turn into humanoid or hybrid any number of times per day for any duration. But while in your alternate forms, you lose odd level class abilities (natural attacks and related), but obviously gain the ability to interact normally with people and use all equipment normally.

At levels 12 and 18 gain +1 size when in wolf form - can be "turned down" if you choose, in case you don't want to be Huge in a cramped dungeon.

20th level Capstone: Regeneration 10/Silver.

[hamishspence]

Interestingly enough, if you read through the various myths and stories, there are versions of werewolves that start as actual wolves, that learn to become men and/or hybrid monsters. I think it would fit well into a D&D game.

D&D 2e had wolfweres- wolves who turn into men, rather than vice versa. More powerful than werewolves.

[Xerlith]

Person_Man, I like it, I fear, though, that making it a 20-level class can be a bit... Overwhelming, I guess. I don't really know. I want them to be able to personalize and choose other classes without the feeling they're losing on their identity... Or something. It seems I can't decide on what path to take. :smallbiggrin:

[Forrestfire]

Maybe ask the player if they want a beefier, 6-level class, a watered-down 3-level class, or 20 levels of them becoming an increasingly bigger, badder wolf?

Maybe throw on some of the Monster of Legend abilities or other template stuff if you do a 20-level progression.

[ArqArturo]

Suddenly, I'm reminded of the Big Bad Wolf in Fables. Could work.

[Emperor Tippy]

I would go with "magic gone wrong" throwing him into the wolf body (something like True Mind Switch).

Change the type to Magical Beast and just require him to take the first 6 levels in magical beast HD. Leave the stats alone (let the PC roll for the mental stats).

After the six levels of Magical Beast HD the player can either take other class levels or can take more magical beast HD.

Let him pick his "class skills" as he desires.

May or may not allow speech (I lean towards "not", at least until the player gets a Tongue's or Psionic Tongues ability).

---
Magical Beast HD are basically Fighter HD except without the feats.

[Person_Man]

Person_Man, I like it, I fear, though, that making it a 20-level class can be a bit... Overwhelming, I guess. I don't really know. I want them to be able to personalize and choose other classes without the feeling they're losing on their identity... Or something. It seems I can't decide on what path to take. :smallbiggrin:

Well, there's nothing wrong with cramming fewer abilities into a template class of some sort. But the problem is that templates, template classes, and short PrC in general tend to scale very poorly. You get one or two powerful cool signature abilities, which can be overly powerful at low ECL. But then once you get to ECL 15ish+, those things tend to scale poorly (or not at all) and you have no high level class abilities to look forward to (like 7th-9th level spells/maneuvers/powers/vestiges, capstone abilities, or any equivalent).

So if you're going to use a shorter template class of some sort, I would suggest that you either just play around in ECL 6-14ish, or figure out a 20 level homebrew the player likes, or consider allowing him to play a Wildshape Ranger 20, but his default form is that of a wolf, and he can also turn into humanoids in addition to that of animals.