The value of stealth in a party.

[tadkins]

I was debating on a character concept earlier; a gnomish archer-type character with an emphasis on stealth and sniping. Considered different ideas such as rogue, ranger, Swift Hunter, etc, and looking up information regarding each one.

Of course, when I search for these things I tend to click on the Giant links, since these forums have touched on most every D&D subject out there. :)

One particular post really grabbed me, though. To summarize, the person talked about the actual value of stealth in a party. It basically went along the lines of how scouting slows a game down, and is generally pointless because we know what is around the next corner anyway; a level-appropriate encounter!

I'd like to explore that idea a bit more. What do you guys think? Is it worthwhile to build a stealthy character knowing that, or would it be better to just focus on building a kickass archer?

[Ortesk]

As a player, i tend to think that well yes the stealth thing is pointless. Divination works just fine, and magic trumps anything a rogue will pull


As a DM, you need stealth. I give my group appropiate CR's sure, but if you run in guns blazing your gonna die. Why you ask? I am a crafty dm, divination isnt the go to answer in my world, and with no foresight to the fight the enemies have the advantage and im unforgiving. My players always have a dedicated rogue for the sake of being a scout

[Talya]

Pathfinder makes stealth far more viable to a party with teamwork feats.

[HalfQuart]

I think it depends a lot on the DM. I'm used to playing in campaigns where CR is not always level-appropriate and if you're dumb you die. That said, unless the whole party is stealthy (pretty rare in my experience), optimizing stealth means splitting the party so you can scout ahead... which is both dangerous and un-fun because of how it slows down play.

[WebTiefling]

If you metagame stuff, then sure - the player can know all sorts of stuff that the characters can't, such as the fact that there's a level-appropriate encounter around the corner.

That's "cheating" in some ways. Let's set that aside.

Now Wizards, Clerics, etc are Tier 1 for a reason - they can do freaking anything and do it awesomely with a bit of preparation. However, this doesn't really kick in until "later" levels. Before you get to level 7,9,11,something, the Wizards can't do everything.

Working your way through that dungeon? You've got several hours of scouting that needs to be done, and a party just can't keep the scouting up for that long using magic when they're only level 5. They run out of spells, or have all their spells focused on scouting activities and are useless for anything else.

Until you get to the point where Wizards/Clerics/whatever can cast buttloads of spells using umpteen different special capabilities to provide nigh-unlimited awesome scouting abilities, then Stealth is a VERY useful thing.

Example:
Level 3's going through the dungeon - six hours, four encounters that day, three of them need some stealth work, and the players need a bunch of ongoing stealth work because (metagaming aside) they don't know which one of the hundred different corners will have the Minotaur around it.

Even two wizards dedicated to stealth capabilities there can't cover the Stealth needs of the party. Or, if they can, they can't do anything else, and so are in worse shape than the Rogue who can Stealth his way around with his skills and still do other useful things like bypass traps/doors and maybe Backstab enemies.

[Red Fel]

I find that conversations on stealth often discuss out-of-combat ramifications of the ability, such as scouting, instead of in-combat applications.

Being able to stealth, and strike from stealth, while in combat can neutralize many of the advantages against stealth. An enemy forced to choose between casting a divination spell or defending himself against your allies is unlikely to choose the former; stealth can enable you to smoothly and strategically move around the field. It also enables tactics which might be effective against a smart DM, such as one using Tucker's Kobolds. Taking advantage of the combat effects of stealth, concealment and the like can be very valuable, I think.

I've seen a number of builds that involve using Hide in Plain Sight, followed by various effects, to functionally move in and out of visibility in the middle of combat, thus enabling a rogue or similar character to set himself up for powerful, tactical strikes, then to fade back into the background before the enemy can counter. Doing so ensures that every enemy will be flanked, every foe must cast defensively, and every encounter requires the DM to be tactically smarter than the players.

Combat stealth can be a surprisingly effective tool, is my take.

(That said, a stealth archer is an entirely different premise, and one with which I have no real experience to add. But it does sound pretty sweet, and tough to counter in combat.)

[Psyren]

Spells also have the problem of detectability. If you're invisible or glamered up with a disguise, and someone has detect magic on, they're going to know something is up. Detect Magic is at-will in PF (and for many monsters even without class levels) so there's no reason not to have it up. Whereas something like See Invisibility or True Seeing, with a short duration, probably won't be active all the time - the sentry in question is more likely to turn it on when they suspect something. If they suspect you, you're already bad at stealth.

Further, divinations have limits. All the True Seeing in the world can't help you find someone who is simply good at hiding, nor can they help you uncover somebody who wears makeup and some feathers.

[Equinox]

scouting slows a game down, and is generally pointless because we know what is around the next corner anyway; a level-appropriate encounter!Priceless! I'm going to steal this quote, if you don't mind.

Having said that, if the DM runs more of a sandboxy world, where encounters may or may not be appropriate for the PCs level, the value of scouting goes very high.

[Story]

On the other hand, a 1 level dip in Binder and binding Malphas gives you all the scouting you'll ever need.

[Curmudgeon]

t basically went along the lines of how scouting slows a game down, and is generally pointless because we know what is around the next corner anyway; a level-appropriate encounter!
Says who?

Check DMG page 49, which says that fully 5% of all encounters should be Overpowering: EL 5+ higher than party level. Smart scouting can recognize and avoid these flirtations with certain death.

[Madwand99]

The typical user of stealth in a D&D party is fairly useless: that is, a human or halfing rogue who tries to scout ahead or use stealth in a fight. It can work once in a while, but it's extremely risky for the rogue and doesn't have a big payoff.

That said, I've seen stealth and scouting pay off BIG for certain parties who optimized for it. One party I've seen had a Tibbit swordsage with the Darkstalker feat and a hide check so high Hide in Plain Sight was nearly redundant (30+), AND an anima mage who made regular use of Malphas, and divinations at higher levels. Starting from very low levels, scouting and stealth was a huge force multiplier on the strategic level, letting the party get away with tactics most parties could only dream about, regularly fighting foes with combined EL so far above our APL that eventually our DM just gave up on providing adequate challenge. Divination just can't provide the amount of information needed to do accomplish this kind of force multiplication, especially at low levels (1-10), but it is a useful complement to scouting.

That last point is actually a problem with stealth: too low and it's useless, but if it's high enough to be useful, DMs can a have a huge problem dealing with it. Lots of DMs hate it when the party has access to more information about their enemies than the reverse, and it's just tough to handle. They'll hate it even more if it's so high the PC can effectively use it as a sort of Improved Invisibility that can't be defeated with the various invisibility-defeating spells.

One last point: the role of scout isn't something a newbie should try. It takes a lot of system expertise to pull it off competently and without absurd risk.

[JaronK]

My sig has quite a bit on this topic, for what that's worth.

JaronK

[Cambrian]

If a party metagames to not play cautious you can always break their expectations. Throw the odd non level appropriate encounter their way, and make it so there are reasonable methods of avoiding the encounter if they take the time.

is this punishing? Yes.

But is punishing metagaming, and forcing more engagement because their choices matter more.


As for stealth: it has it's uses. Even if you know your encounters are level appropriate you can gain a leg up by getting into an advataged position or sneaking past encounters to save resources.

My biggest gripe is that with invisibitity a wizard can just outclass one of the rogue's signature abilities (but that's just magic vs mundane). That and unless the process is streamlined it can take a while.

[khachaturian]

just remember, being alone and squishy can be risky

[tadkins]

Good responses, thanks guys. :)

Based off what I'm reading, it would be a good idea to talk to the DM beforehand and find out what kind of game it is? Perhaps have two character sheets ready for the same character; one focused purely on being a crackshot with a crossbow, and another with stealth/espionage skills mixed in.

Of course, if this were Pathfinder, a gnomish Gunslinger would also be a fun option!

While I always do my best not to metagame, I know that there are some DMs who might drop an ogre mage on a level one party if they made the wrong decisions, while other DMs would keep things level-appropriate. It's my belief that the latter outnumber the former, which is why I was questioning the usefulness of stealth in those types of games.

[ArqArturo]

As a player, i tend to think that well yes the stealth thing is pointless. Divination works just fine, and magic trumps anything a rogue will pull

Actually, there are several mundane means to hide from divination spells. Misdirection and indirect truths can help you evade Truth spells, as is working with proxies that have proxies of their own, who also have proxies, and making the contacts so convoluted they never really meet. There's also disguise kits, a good use of folliage. Honestly, if the BBEG is only using magic to hide, it's laziness, and he/she/it deserve to be caught :smallamused:.

So, I will defend the use of common scouting.


just remember, being alone and squishy can be risky

So, who's on worst end of the line? A wizard being caught by five big dumb fighters, or a big dumb fighter being caught by wizards?.

[nedz]

I've played in games where stealth wasn't much use because there was rarely ever any cover, and I've also played in games where it was very useful to have someone infiltrate a building etc.

I'm currently playing in a high level stealth party. We routinely just walk through the room full of, well robots actually, and get on with the mission. Speeds things up immensely: Make a few moves, roll a few skill checks, none of that tedious combat stuff unless we want it. So: level appropriate combat around the corner: fine we'll just mosey on by.

[Lanaya]

Stealth can be very useful, there are many more ways to use it than simply checking what the next encounter is. If you're just doing a linear dungeon crawl in which each room contains an encounter with a CR equal to the average level of the PCs, then maybe it's not so great. If you have to infiltrate the enemy camp and assassinate their leader, stealth is indispensible. Or perhaps you want to infiltrate the enemy camp and assassinate their leader, but after sneaking in and scouting around you decide that actually, there's an awful lot of really strong people here, if we try this we're going to die. Basically, the more kick in the door, hack-n-slash encounters your DM throws at you, the less useful stealth will be, but in a game with a balanced mix of situations it's very handy.

[Vortenger]

In one game I play in, I'm a summoner level 4 w/ a rogue based eidolon. With nothing but some masterwork tools for stealth my 3 HD eidolon packs a +23 stealth modifier and has the shadow form evolution for constant concealment. Generally, she can walk through any area taking 10, and even in broad daylight walk within 5' of the BBEG and not be noticed. No magic gear means no pinging on magic radar.

I use her to walk through an area, scout out troop locations, likely tactics, traps, locks,etc. I ride in her head for a round or 2 to take in important room layouts. Then I have her hold the most valuable thing she can find and extract her back to her home plane. Then I resummon her next to me to report and hand me the goods.

Knowing exactly what opposition you're facing and where is solid gold. The trick I've learned is that your stealth and perceptive abilities must be so superior to your enemy as to leave you untraceable. If you can be found, you will be, eventually. Found and alone often equals dead. The other trick is to make sure your scout has an out. My eidolon is a standard action to dismiss. Rogues have to be a bit more crafty (wands, panic buttons, dropping a tree feather token for instant cover, etc.), but thankfully itemization for stealth (hide and move silent) is painfully easy to optimize as most boni are competence based, which stacks with other competence boni, as long as its not the 'same source'. Slap some boni together in the back of the MIC and watch your low level stealther rise to the mid +20ish bonus range by level 3-4, easy.

Side note: that same summoner with a 16 dex, no ranks in stealth, but with 2 mundane items and a shuriken has a +16 bonus to stealth. Not bad for under 3,000 gold

[Kennisiou]

A lot of skills have a sort of inverse bell-curve of usefulness. They're really useful early on before you have the spells that "replace" them, like when you need to sneak into the kobold camp to rescue the kidnapped villagers at early levels the rogue will excel while the wizard is probably only tagging along because he likely has high dex and no armor check penalty. Once you start getting the spells that replace them, these skills are a lot less useful. Once you can fly and turn invisible your hide and move silently skill points don't mean a lot. But then an odd sort of thing happens where these skills start becoming really useful again once the enemies you're likely to be facing start having means of countering these spells (true seeing is a biggie, since it makes magical disguises/hiding spells worthless but a disguise/hide skill check can utterly thwart it still).

It really does depend on the DM and how the party likes to handle things, though. If the DM likes putting you in scenarios where fighting isn't the best or only solution to encounters (or often isn't even a valid solution at all, say that if you were to start attacking the village the kobolds would kill their prisoners) then these skills follow that inverse bell curve. If combat is always a valid solution then it's a different story.

Also, the idea that scouting ahead to figure out what the next encounter is is worthless because it's always another level-appropriate encounter is silly. "Level appropriate" is a wide range of challenge ratings, and often (according to Tippy in an earlier thread, about 5% of the time) "level appropriate" in fact means "run like hell or die." Scouting ahead lets you get tangible strategic advantages, letting you know ahead of time what you'll be facing, what the best way to deal with it is, and what the area you're likely to be fighting it in is like.

[Emperor Tippy]

Depends on the players and the DM.

Stealth can be everything from a critical necessity to totally worthless.

[tyckspoon]

but thankfully itemization for stealth (hide and move silent) is painfully easy to optimize as most boni are competence based, which stacks with other competence boni, as long as its not the 'same source'. Slap some boni together in the back of the MIC and watch your low level stealther rise to the mid +20ish bonus range by level 3-4, easy.


..no, they don't. You are perhaps thinking of Circumstance bonuses, which are provided by Masterwork Tools and sometimes alchemical items? It is worth noting that multiple Masterwork Tools explicitly do not stack.

[Curmudgeon]

... but thankfully itemization for stealth (hide and move silent) is painfully easy to optimize as most boni are competence based, which stacks with other competence boni, as long as its not the 'same source'.
You seem to be misinformed, or confusing competence and circumstance bonuses. From page 171 of Player's Handbook:
The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don’t generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus works And from page 21 of Dungeon Master's Guide:
Circumstance: This is a bonus or penalty based on situational factors, which may apply either to a check or the DC for that check. Circumstance modifiers stack with each other, unless they arise from essentially the same circumstance.
Tool, Masterwork: This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items used toward the same skill check do not stack. (Having two screwdrivers won't let you turn a screw any faster than having one.)

[JaronK]

As a note about Invisibility: if you're moving, it's only a DC 20 to know you're there (but it's hard to pinpoint you). So if your hide check beats a 20, it's better than invisibility.

JaronK

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Y'know, even level appropriate encounters have better or worse ways of dealing with them. Any encounter is easier if you have the jump on the enemy, as opposed to the other way around. Stealthy scouting is great, as long as the DM isn't an ass and you're in a broad set of situations where it's possible.

Those optimized for hide/move silently (darkstalker is a must, collar of umbral metamorphosis is nice) are basically only detectable via niche abilities like Mindsight and Touchsight, which have their own weaknesses. At the very least being undetectable is a very powerful defense. This is partly why unseen seers and spellwarp snipers can be worth losing a caster level.

Also, the whole "but the wizard can use valuable spell slots and an hour of game time each in-game day to figure out what's going to happen" is technically true, but (1) stealth-based intel often complements these efforts and (2) for all the bad talk stealth doesn't slow the game down nearly as much as magical intel, especially if you establish an M.O. for being in a particular terrain/situation.

[Firechanter]

I found that your mileage may vary considerably depending on the game.

I've played in three types of game, stealth-wise:

- "Normal": one or two in the party have stealth, the rest doesn't. Rogue scouts, and if lucky makes it back undetected. Occasionally yields some extra prep time, allowing the casters to put their buffs up etc. At other times, it's a liability when the scout gets busted and the rest of the party is out of range.

- High-Op: screw stealth, we use magic for/instead of scouting and then just barge in. Works, but all players have to be on the same page for this or you may get a very sad and frustrated rogue player.

- "Covert Ops": everyone in the party has stealth. We can sneak right up to the enemy, get the drop on them, wipe them out and they never knew what hit'em. I have built Stealthy Clerics for this purpose. Have to say these were the most fun games.

[Anecdote, not from 3.5 but from Conan D20: we were so good at our shtick that at one point well into the game the GM said "Alright, this time let's say that the enemies detected you and are ready to fight; I want to at least roll initiative for my NPCs just once." :smallbiggrin: - we still won, the combat just took a little longer.]

[Vortenger]

Apologies, I did indeed mean to say circumstance. Thats what the notes on my character sheet say as well. Most folk seem to be unaware that there is a bonus for skills that can potentially stack with itself. I was attempting to bring that to light. Thank you for quoting the rule in question. My point stands that many various item's boni stack. Dig deep and ye shall find many ways to stack the bonus higher. Moreover, its cheap.

The Silent Moves weapon enchantment in OA is circumstance based (+10 to move silently), and unless I'm mistaken, that does stack with the +2 from your masterwork tools. Other such enchantments would similarly stack. Maybe I'm not understanding why you mention two masterwork items...?

[XmonkTad]

I love playing scout. It is probably my favorite class. I know it gets clack for not having UMD or a lot of sneak attack dice (and most people swift hunter it). I play it strait, because it allows for stealth sections, but also permits direct combat without needing cover and sniping or neraph charging every round.

However scouting and stealth sections DO slow down play. Of course, so does spending 10 minutes casting a divination spell at low levels (my rouge naps while the wizard looks behind yet another door with magic). Your DM will have to handle it. Do you play solo sessions while your party crafts back in town? Do you have the party sit there and make OOC suggestions? Do you just stay in telepathic contact with your wizard and have him teleport the ubercharger to you when you spot the BBEG undressing?

It is useful, but unless you talk to the DM/party about it, it might be annoying or redundant. If no one else in the party has stealth, then "scouting" splits the party. How do you usually play or resolve a split party?

[Psyren]

- "Normal": one or two in the party have stealth, the rest doesn't. Rogue scouts, and if lucky makes it back undetected. Occasionally yields some extra prep time, allowing the casters to put their buffs up etc. At other times, it's a liability when the scout gets busted and the rest of the party is out of range.

This is how we use stealth - the rogue sneaking ahead gives the party time to buff up, draw weapons etc. There are also generally traps ahead of the monsters that can be nasty if not spotted.


- "Covert Ops": everyone in the party has stealth. We can sneak right up to the enemy, get the drop on them, wipe them out and they never knew what hit'em. I have built Stealthy Clerics for this purpose. Have to say these were the most fun games.

Psychic Rogues are pretty good at this approach - Control Light and Control Sound makes everyone into rogues, along with powers like Attract and Distract to screw with sentries.

[Chronos]

My group mostly favors linear dungeon crawls, and I've still never seen a situation where "you know what's around the corner: Another level-appropriate encounter!". Sure, the next interesting thing we find is probably going to be a group of monsters, but it's not necessarily around the next corner. Maybe it's two corners from now, or ten corners, or five hours. If you cast short-duration buffs, and then charge around the corner without scouting, you've probably just wasted your buffs. With scouting, not only do you know what to do to prepare, you also know when to do it, which is just as important.

[gooddragon1]

Depends on the players and the DM.

Stealth can be everything from a critical necessity to totally worthless.

That one right there.

Though I hate stealth because it's not handled well. Splitting up the party is a very bad idea and you need a very competent DM to handle it well rather than just killing the scout. Funnily enough here's an example from the dungeon master's guide (page 10):


Lidda: Oops. I rolled a 7.
Now the DM begins rolling attacks for the ghouls. The players ask what’s going on, and why he’s rolling dice, but his silence adds to the tension and suspense. The ghouls hit Lidda with their paralyzing touch.
DM: Lidda, make a Fortitude save.
Lidda: Oh, no! Why? A trap? [Rolls.] Arrgh—a 1. This is where our luck runs out.
DM: [To the others.] You see a sickly gray arm strike the halfling as she’s looking around at the floor where she stands, 10 feet above you. She utters a muffled cry, and then a shadowy form drags her out of sight. What do you do?

So, now because of 1 slip up the party is down a player because they were forced to split the party for scouting purposes. An experienced DM may have just done this as a way to make it a timed mission and will adjust the CR of encounters to account for lack of a member as well as giving the player who got nabbed a chance to contribute in some way. However, more likely, the player dies and the group fails because of the risky nature of stealth.

Though if you're dead set on it: JaronK's Guide to Scouting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267900)

[Psyren]

It's more accurate to say that rogue scouting is weak. If Lidda were a Psychic Rogue, Factotum, Incarnate/Totemist, Beguiler or Alchemist she could easily get out of that predicament because those classes can actually act autonomously.

[Spore]

It's more accurate to say that rogue scouting is weak. If Lidda were a Psychic Rogue, Factotum, Incarnate/Totemist, Beguiler or Alchemist she could easily get out of that predicament because those classes can actually act autonomously.

Those aren't rogues. This is a freak show.

[Psyren]

Those aren't rogues. This is a freak show.

If actually being competent at my job makes me a freak, sign me up :smallbiggrin:

[gooddragon1]

If actually being competent at my job makes me a freak, sign me up :smallbiggrin:

It is possible with those classes to do it right, but without optimization it is difficult to stealth appropriately imo.

[nedz]

It is possible with those classes to do it right, but without optimization it is difficult to stealth appropriately imo.

It can be hard at level 1, but by mid levels even mid-op characters can do it.

[Sith_Happens]

That one right there.

Though I hate stealth because it's not handled well. Splitting up the party is a very bad idea and you need a very competent DM to handle it well rather than just killing the scout. Funnily enough here's an example from the dungeon master's guide (page 10):

So, now because of 1 slip up the party is down a player because they were forced to split the party for scouting purposes. An experienced DM may have just done this as a way to make it a timed mission and will adjust the CR of encounters to account for lack of a member as well as giving the player who got nabbed a chance to contribute in some way. However, more likely, the player dies and the group fails because of the risky nature of stealth.

Though if you're dead set on it: JaronK's Guide to Scouting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267900)

If you fail on a 7 it just means you're a horrible scout.:smalltongue:

[Spore]

If you fail on a 7 it just means you're a horrible scout.:smalltongue:

Or you have a DM like mine which gives his Lv 2 NPCs a perception check every round for each individual henchman.

Lv 2 Drow with a bit of WIS and maxed perception as well as the +2 racial perk net on a 8, and with my bonusses Lydda would've had 27. It's not that hard to get a 19 or 20 with 9 rolls (8 henchmen and 1 cleric).


With scouting, not only do you know what to do to prepare, you also know when to do it, which is just as important.

That requires

a) spell casters

b) thinking party members.

[tyckspoon]

The Silent Moves weapon enchantment in OA is circumstance based (+10 to move silently), and unless I'm mistaken, that does stack with the +2 from your masterwork tools. Other such enchantments would similarly stack. Maybe I'm not understanding why you mention two masterwork items...?

Masterwork tools are the only circumstance bonuses you'll find in Core. I've no doubt you can find others with sufficient book diving - you can find dang near anything if you go far enough afield in the entire 3.5 canon - but I find it a bit disingenuous to say you can do this easily or that this should be the obvious route to take. Circumstance is actually a pretty rare bonus type.

[nedz]

Or you have a DM like mine which gives his Lv 2 NPCs a perception check every round for each individual henchman.

That would shut down stealth very hard. It's maybe justifiable if they are spooked, but really.

The counter tactic is to create a diversion.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

What I'm getting is this: If you half ass it by getting 12 dex and a couple of ranks, you probably shouldn't be 60' ahead of the party.

If you're actually investing in being good at the role you've chosen - max ranks, synergy, size/racial bonuses, items, darkstalker, HiPS, spells/abilities/etc - then you will succeed almost all of the time, and the benefits far outweigh the risks.

[Cambrian]

Another aspect to stealth takes a lot of time argument:

Often classes with spells and X/day abilities blow through the abilities faster than a days adventures should be (the "5 minute workday"). If instead the encounters were drawn out with scouting between this issue is less pronounced. Combat might only be minutes, but spread out over a longer period due to tactical planning between each encounter.

Stealth in general though could benefit from more streamlining.

[Equinox]

A low level Halfling Rogue can have Hide and MS in the teens with zero optimization, just from ranks, Dex, size, racial, and a 50 gp masterwork item.

A Ghoul (as in poor Lidda's example) has +7 Spot and +2 Listen. If Lidda is prudent to take 10 on Hide/MS, the Ghouls can't hear her at all, and can only spot her on a very high natural roll (if there are no range penalties!)

In fact, the only reason the Ghouls spotted her in the DMG example, is because ... wait for it ... she wasn't actually scouting ahead! She was in the same bloody room as the rest of the party, including Jozan and Tordek in their heavy armor.

[Raimun]

It depends.

Sure, you can make it just fine without stealth if someone in your party can do it... or you're so powerful that stealth is not needed.

I still prefer to have some stealth options. Especially if I'm playing a character that doesn't need heavy armor. Especially if it's Pathfinder (or 4e) and Stealth is one single skill you can upgrade with one single Skill point. And I don't even play Rogues. However, if you do need a heavy armor and have no skill points to spare, it's better to focus on something else... and perhaps carry a Hat of Diguise. That will do in a pinch. I once disguised my armor clad Cleric as a metallic enemy construct. :smalltongue:

It's just that stealth can do much more than scouting. If that wasn't the case, I wouldn't take stealth because scouting is for wussies... and it does slow down games of D&D, no arguing there.

Anyway, with stealth you can have surprise rounds, get better positions for attacks (melee too) and most importantly, not be the first one of your team to draw fire... :smalltongue:

And those were just the combat uses. You can avoid combats if there are some circumstances where it's not a good idea to start a fight.

Edit: If you need to do something other than dungeon crawling, this will come up. You know, if there are actual consequences to your actions.

You can also do some wet work like theft, sabotage or information gathering. Not to mention following the rogue around, both to keep an eye on him/her and to keep you from getting bored when it would otherwise be a one man sneaking mission. Remember, you need only one dude to pick locks, disable traps, etc. but you can't outsource actual sneaking.

Stealth is one of the more useful skills out there. Not like jumping, athletics, climbing and so on. As far as I can tell, no DM does acrobatic/athletic challenges like in Uncharted- or inFamous-video games.

I think it's because everyone would need to be good at those skills and most often the only guy who has any ranks in any of them has huge penalties because of armor and doesn't even have all of them. :smalltongue:

[Humble Master]

Ultimately, as said above, it depends on what you and the players want to do with the campaign. Stealth can offer some quite powerful advantages. Getting the surprise round is quite potent and you could potentially sneak past the whole encounter. But, players might not want to spend the time rolling for all the Move Silently and Listen checks and the DM might not want his big Ogre ambush to be invalidated by a good Spot check, Silence and Invisibility Sphere.

[Pickford]

tadkins:

One particular post really grabbed me, though. To summarize, the person talked about the actual value of stealth in a party. It basically went along the lines of how scouting slows a game down, and is generally pointless because we know what is around the next corner anyway; a level-appropriate encounter!

I'd like to explore that idea a bit more. What do you guys think? Is it worthwhile to build a stealthy character knowing that, or would it be better to just focus on building a kickass archer?

Well, the thing is, if the DM is crafting an entire world, and not just railroading you through a particular series of hoops...there are going to be level inappropriate things around many corners. Part of this is just making sure the party has the opportunity not to die (either through discretion, the greater part of valor, or through overt warnings that there is something they probably don't want to encounter/deal with)

Assuming you have the understanding with your group that there 'will be casualties', then it's totally ok to have them figure out that there's a secret back-door to the target's house via the sewers...the extremely clean sewers that don't appear to have 'any' flotsam or jetsam around..."oh and hey what's that wavery light in front of....GELATIN*urk*!" (dead party member #1)

Frankly, I think it's easy to be up front with players saying that not everything they encounter will be tailor-made for them to fight (in other words, just because you put a Dragon there, doesn't mean the party has a kobold's chance in lava if it decides to eat them). Once that is done, the game can be much more varied and interesting.

also: see Curmudgeon's wise post on the matter.

tyckspoon:

Masterwork tools are the only circumstance bonuses you'll find in Core. I've no doubt you can find others with sufficient book diving - you can find dang near anything if you go far enough afield in the entire 3.5 canon - but I find it a bit disingenuous to say you can do this easily or that this should be the obvious route to take. Circumstance is actually a pretty rare bonus type.

You can also get them from...you know...circumstances being correct. This of course requires convincing the DM that whatever you're doing plausibly should be easier because of X.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

A low level Halfling Rogue can have Hide and MS in the teens with zero optimization, just from ranks, Dex, size, racial, and a 50 gp masterwork item.

A Ghoul (as in poor Lidda's example) has +7 Spot and +2 Listen. If Lidda is prudent to take 10 on Hide/MS, the Ghouls can't hear her at all, and can only spot her on a very high natural roll (if there are no range penalties!)

In fact, the only reason the Ghouls spotted her in the DMG example, is because ... wait for it ... she wasn't actually scouting ahead! She was in the same bloody room as the rest of the party, including Jozan and Tordek in their heavy armor.Just to expand upon this, I'll consider a (Strongheart?) Halfling Factotum 3. The only hide-related feat he takes is Darkstalker; the rest can be used on fun things like martial X, weapon finesse, shadow blade, etc. He has 20 dex and 16 int.

Hide: 6(ranks) + 5(dex) + 3(int) + 4(size) + 2(MW tool) = +20 Hide before magic items or other abilities.

Move Silently: is 6(ranks) + 5(dex) + 3(int) + 2(race) + 2(MW tool) = +18 Move Silently before magic items or other abilities.

In a pinch he can get another +3 to hide and/or move silently once a day via cunning knowledge (and this gets much better as he levels), and he can UMD or even SLA various magics to help further.

Worth noting:
A rogue built similarly would still have +17 Hide / +15 Move Silently.
As far as build resources go, I've chosen a thematic race, taken one feat (that doesn't even pump the check directly), maxed two skills in a skill-monkey class, and spent 100 GP.
I could invest further resources (Skill Focus, Incarnum, Magic Items, Dark Template) to pump the checks further, but I don't think it's necessary.

[Vortenger]

Masterwork tools are the only circumstance bonuses you'll find in Core. I've no doubt you can find others with sufficient book diving - you can find dang near anything if you go far enough afield in the entire 3.5 canon - but I find it a bit disingenuous to say you can do this easily or that this should be the obvious route to take. Circumstance is actually a pretty rare bonus type.

I should have perhaps been more concise. I was not implying a person should specifically hunt down every circumstance bonus in every book. I was implying a person should stack the various bonus types to achieve a high return on stealth skills so as to obviate the chance of being found. I also wanted to note that it is possible to stack a certain bonus type, and that can be immensely helpful to those who were previously unaware.

Add the following to the preceding poster's move silent for low level item-op

*+1 Shuriken of Silent Moves (+10 circumstance to move silently) - 121 gold
*Boots of Elvenkind (+5 competence bonus) - 2500 gold

Available by level 4. Moves the examples given to +30/+32 move silent respectively. Total of 2,621 gold. That's what I mean by trivially easy to optimize.

[Gnaeus]

Lacking an edition tag, I will add that IMO, Stealth is better in PF than in 3.5. This is because:

1. 1 skill instead of 2 reduces needed resources. It is much easier to have a full party with max stealth. You may still want a stealth guy going first, but your heavy armor wearer may not need to be in the next county.

2. 1 skill instead of 2 halves the chances that a random bad roll will screw you. This is really what hurts stealth parties. It isn't that it isn't cool to have a special ops mission. It is that when your party's hide rolls are 8, 10, 13, 18, and their stealth rolls are 1, 7, 14, 20, none of those rolls are likely to matter except the 1.

[Talya]

Lacking an edition tag, I will add that IMO, Stealth is better in PF than in 3.5. This is because:

1. 1 skill instead of 2 reduces needed resources. It is much easier to have a full party with max stealth. You may still want a stealth guy going first, but your heavy armor wearer may not need to be in the next county.

2. 1 skill instead of 2 halves the chances that a random bad roll will screw you. This is really what hurts stealth parties. It isn't that it isn't cool to have a special ops mission. It is that when your party's hide rolls are 8, 10, 13, 18, and their stealth rolls are 1, 7, 14, 20, none of those rolls are likely to matter except the 1.

Another reason PF makes stealth better, is that prior to PF, it was really almost impossible for an entire party to succeed at stealth. Even if you all maxed the skill, one of you is going to roll badly, and it only takes one bad roll to ruin it for everyone.

Then this came along:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/stealth-synergy-teamwork

[Emperor Tippy]

Another reason PF makes stealth better, is that prior to PF, it was really almost impossible for an entire party to succeed at stealth. Even if you all maxed the skill, one of you is going to roll badly, and it only takes one bad roll to ruin it for everyone.

Then this came along:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/stealth-synergy-teamwork

That is what you have a Bag of Holding or portable hole for. The infiltrator just carries the party with them.

[Equinox]

Another reason PF makes stealth better, is that prior to PF, it was really almost impossible for an entire party to succeed at stealth. Even if you all maxed the skill, one of you is going to roll badly, and it only takes one bad roll to ruin it for everyone.

Then this came along:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/stealth-synergy-teamworkCute.


Benefit: While you can see one or more allies who also have this feat, whenever you and your allies make a Stealth check, you all take the highest roll and add all your modifiers to Stealth.

Problem is, if your allies are very good at Stealth, you can't see them. So this feat is kinda self defeating. :smalltongue:

[Icewraith]

That is what you have a Bag of Holding or portable hole for. The infiltrator just carries the party with them.

Until the infiltrator gets that one bad roll or runs into an opponent stealth doesn't work on for whatever reason, plausible or not, and the infiltrator gets killed and the bag opened into a pit of acid or lava or similar. Or dropped in a bag of holding. The portable party trick can be a bit risky.

[Sith_Happens]

Until the infiltrator gets that one bad roll or runs into an opponent stealth doesn't work on for whatever reason, plausible or not, and the infiltrator gets killed and the bag opened into a pit of acid or lava or similar. Or dropped in a bag of holding. The portable party trick can be a bit risky.

Or left on the floor for ten minutes.

[nedz]

Or left on the floor for ten minutes.

I have seen it happen, reason: absent mindedness.:smallbiggrin:

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I have seen it happen, reason: absent mindedness.:smallbiggrin:http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bottleofAir ... that said I prefer other methods, just because it's harder for the party to communicate with the scout when across planar boundaries.

TL;DR version: Optimized scout + Chain of Eyes + Dimension Door is a nice poor man's scry'n'die.

Long-range communication + not being there somehow + way to get there can work. Nothing lacks counters, but having a counter doesn't mean stealth is bad.

Long-range communication: Chain of Eyes, Mindlink, Telepathic Bond, certain forms of Telepathy, Dominate oddly enough

Not being there: Etherealness, earthglide, literally being far away (see "way to get there")

Way to get there: Etherealness and Earthglide take care of themselves, but being far away pretty much requires either being really fast or dimension door.

[Emperor Tippy]

Scout Goggles from Dragon Compendium page 140 are great. You basically get to see out of the scouts face and they have no usage, range, or planar limitations (and only 15K).

Also great to put on your familiar.

Scout Goggles + Mindblank + a Ring of Invisibility + Interplanar Telepathic Bond + a familiar (or bound scout with good stealth skills of one kind or another) makes for a relatively cheap and quite good scout.

And in many situations you can drop the Mindblank and Invisibility and just use a regular permanent telepathic bond. Just remember to make the Scout Goggles Permanently Invisible so that people don't wonder about the owl's/toads/ravens/snakes eye-ware.

[Psyren]

Scout Goggles from Dragon Compendium page 140 are great. You basically get to see out of the scouts face and they have no usage, range, or planar limitations (and only 15K).

Actually you missed this line:


Transmission occurs over any distance but not across planes.

They do in fact have a use limitation as well, namely that goggles cannot send and receive images at the same time - so two-way surveillance requires alternating the goggles.

[Emperor Tippy]

Actually you missed this line:
Bah. Still a good item though.


They do in fact have a use limitation as well, namely that goggles cannot send and receive images at the same time - so two-way surveillance requires alternating the goggles.

I meant no usage limitation in terms of time or uses per day. Unlike, say, Sense Link.

[MirddinEmris]

There is some misconception about the "level appropriate encounter", because it doesn't mean it'll be easy or even that you can handle it. Even if you DO know that around this corner is encounter with passable CR, it doesn't mean that you can just barge in there. Tucker's Kobolds is a thing, after all)) Scouting is good for neutralizing enemy's tactics.

For example - there is a room with 10 orkcs next door and you are 2-3 level part of 4 adventurers, but orcs heard you coming (no stealth and probably a full-plate fighter) and readied their bows to shot first person who'll enter the room. Fighter barges in...and gets the cheapest hedgehog costume - face full of arrows. With scouting this situation can avoided, partially or fully - fighter can ready a tower shield for cover against arrows or the party can try not to be so loud and not alert the enemy.

[Vortenger]

Lacking an edition tag, I will add that IMO, Stealth is better in PF than in 3.5.

The skill consolidation certainly helped reduce the necessity to min-max for different stealth boosters, but perception got the same love stealth did. Perception is priced to match stealth boni now, where getting good spot+listen items for a value was difficult in 3.5. I think that with itemization its a wash overall. The one thing that makes me think you may be incorrect is the lack of Darkstalker. Am I unaware of something in PF that replicates that feat?

Barring Darkstalker, I'd say that stealthing around is easier in 3.5 (Since things can't auto-detect you), but the rules are much better designed in PF.

[tadkins]

Thanks for your responses, everyone. Given me a lot to think about.

I think I've reached the conclusion that a good stealth character is an asset, and that it's always good to have one, just in case. :)

[Chronos]

Quoth Vortenger:

*+1 Shuriken of Silent Moves (+10 circumstance to move silently) - 121 gold
This doesn't exist. Silent Moves is an armor property, not a weapon property, and even if it were, it's a competence bonus that won't stack with boots of elvenkind.

[Madwand99]

This doesn't exist. Silent Moves is an armor property, not a weapon property, and even if it were, it's a competence bonus that won't stack with boots of elvenkind.

It actually is a weapon property (p. 126, Oriental Adventures) and a circumstance bonus (p. 127), but the shuriken idea still won't work because it's only a melee weapon property, not ranged.

[Vortenger]

This doesn't exist. Silent Moves is an armor property, not a weapon property, and even if it were, it's a competence bonus that won't stack with boots of elvenkind.

Incorrect.

Silent Moves Weapon Enchantment. (p. 127 Oriental Adventures),

'A silent moves weapon gives a +10 circumstance bonus on its owner's move silently checks when carried.'

CL 5, reqs: Craft magic arms and armor,silence. Market Price 4,000g

Wow. swordsaged.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Buying a +1 Dagger of Silent Moves (~6300gp) for a +10 circumstance bonus to Move Silently is probably still worth it for a mid-high level sneak who expects dragons and other high-HD perceptive beings waiting for him.

You can also UMD a Wand of Camouflage for a matching +10 circumstance bonus to hide, but that's only 10 minutes a pop. Better to use it when you need it.