sundering a magic weapon: Saving throw or no?

[graeylin]

I am reading the rules on sundering a magical weapon, and a bit confused.

One point of view is that sundering is complete when the opposed rolls happen, and the damage done is greater than Hitpoints the magic sword has.

A second view tells me that even after that, the item gets a savings throw.

which is it? Is sunder a unique form of damaging an item being wielded by a PC, and a +2 magic sword doesn't get a save, or is it just the first part of "damaging an object" and it does?

Does the rule for sundering end in the sundering section, or continue where the table is located, which includes the rule about smashing objects and doing damage (which has the savings throw caveat)?

thanks in advance for your help.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I am reading the rules on sundering a magical weapon, and a bit confused.

One point of view is that sundering is complete when the opposed rolls happen, and the damage done is greater than Hitpoints the magic sword has.

A second view tells me that even after that, the item gets a savings throw.

which is it? Is sunder a unique form of damaging an item being wielded by a PC, and a +2 magic sword doesn't get a save, or is it just the first part of "damaging an object" and it does?

Does the rule for sundering end in the sundering section, or continue where the table is located, which includes the rule about smashing objects and doing damage (which has the savings throw caveat)?

thanks in advance for your help.

Items get saving throws against effects that grant saving throws, sundering does not grant a saving throws. AT NO POINT does it ever say an item gets a saving throw after a sunder attempt.

[KillianHawkeye]

Magic weapons have increased hit points and higher hardness than a nonmagical one to represent being more difficult to break.

[Bruenin]

Items get saving throws against effects that grant saving throws, sundering does not grant a saving throws. AT NO POINT does it ever say an item gets a saving throw after a sunder attempt.

From what I read magic items get saving throws even in cases where some things don't grant them. Like if you tried to hit a magic item with a ray spell or what not.

I think that only applies to spells cast at them though.. I'll have to check

[KillianHawkeye]

From what I read magic items get saving throws even in cases where some things don't grant them. Like if you tried to hit a magic item with a ray spell or what not.

I think that only applies to spells cast at them though.. I'll have to check

No, Vukodlak is right. Given the opportunity, magic items always make saving throws, but you can't make a saving throw against something that does not offer a saving throw. Sunder does not offer a saving throw.

[Curmudgeon]

Magic weapons have increased hit points and higher hardness than a nonmagical one to represent being more difficult to break.
That's at least partly true. The bonus is +2 hardness and +10 HP per enhancement bonus, and every magic weapon must have at least +1 enhancement bonus. However, non-numerical weapon enhancements don't increase the sturdiness of any weapon. Your +1 Brilliant Energy Vorpal weapon isn't any harder to break than a vanilla +1 weapon; the extra 198,000 gp in non-numerical enhancement costs don't add to hardness or HP.

[Bruenin]

No, Vukodlak is right. Given the opportunity, magic items always make saving throws, but you can't make a saving throw against something that does not offer a saving throw. Sunder does not offer a saving throw.

I just read from the rules compendium that items ALWAYS make saving throws, it doesn't say when applicable or whenever the player does. Just that it always makes saving throws when worn(or rather attended), when it's not worn it's considered as automatically failing it's saving throw.

All the information is under the big blue header ATTACKING OBJECTS and the sentence that starts off just under the headers tells you the sunder attack can attack items, weapons, shields, and worn or unattended objects and more.

Is there a different section I should check out?

[Curmudgeon]

I just read from the rules compendium that items ALWAYS make saving throws, it doesn't say when applicable or whenever the player does.
Well, that's nonsense.

Roll initiative. Now, every magic item in the game makes a saving throw.
First player's turn. They take a move action. Again, every magic item in the game makes a saving throw. Then they take a standard action. Again, every magic item in the game makes a saving throw. Then they take a 5' step. Again, every magic item in the game makes a saving throw.
Second player's turn. They take a swift action. Again, every magic item in the game makes a saving throw...

[Bruenin]

Well, that's nonsense.

Roll initiative. Now, every magic item in the game makes a saving throw.
First player's turn. They take a move action. Again, every magic item in the game makes a saving throw. Then they take a standard action. Again, every magic item in the game makes a saving throw. Then they take a 5' step. Again, every magic item in the game makes a saving throw.
Second player's turn. They take a swift action. Again, every magic item in the game makes a saving throw...


Well, for starters, the whole always get saving throws was under a header called attacking objects so I assumed that because the sunder section later in the book didn't mention magic weapons you'd use the rules set up under the attacking objects section. I noticed that it makes a sub header and says in special considerations, but it's in a large font, then it has tinier subheading with it then another heading the same size as special considerations.

The sundering section later in the book doesn't mention how attacking magic items work, so you could try and say that it means you treat attacking magic weapons exactly the same as you would non-magical weapons, or you could try and argue that you have to use the magic item rules established under attacking objects. They both mention attacking worn or attended objects but only the attacking objects section specifically mentions magic items.

It's say's magic items always receives saving throws, so I might just be tripped up on the wording.

[Psyren]

That refers to attacks that do allow a saving throw. For example, if you tried to destroy someone's magic sword with Disintegrate, the item would get a fort save (using its own save, or its wielder's, whichever was better) to reduce the damage.

The Sunder attack does not allow a saving throw.

[KillianHawkeye]

Okay, let's say for a second that magic items can make a saving throw. What does that accomplish exactly? Do they take half damage? No damage at all? Do they save for a partial effect? I don't know, because the Sunder action does not define any saving throw to resolve the attack. A spell will tell you what kind of saving throw you get (if any) and the outcomes thereof. So will a special attack such as a dragon's breath weapon or a rust monster's destructive attack. But sunder? Nothing.

So yeah, go ahead. Make that saving throw. It doesn't do anything, but I guess it made you feel better?





That's at least partly true. The bonus is +2 hardness and +10 HP per enhancement bonus, and every magic weapon must have at least +1 enhancement bonus. However, non-numerical weapon enhancements don't increase the sturdiness of any weapon. Your +1 Brilliant Energy Vorpal weapon isn't any harder to break than a vanilla +1 weapon; the extra 198,000 gp in non-numerical enhancement costs don't add to hardness or HP.

Nothing you wrote here negates any PART of what I wrote. You are simply being specific where I felt being general would suffice. Magic weapons are harder to break because they have more hardness and hp. But thanks for giving the full explanation where none was asked for, I guess.

[graeylin]

thanks for the answers guys! I was confused, and am now less so.