[PF] Roleplaying a Paladin

[Reprimand]

I'm trying to play a paladin in a campaign where LG and the church is resented very much.

I'm trying to make a paladin who is more low key rather than a holier than thou crusader.

Personal motto: Discretion is the greater part of valor.

I'm not talking hide and move silently but more of a not displaying religion or preaching about her god/mission.

For example dressing in mundane looking armor rather than bright/shining white armor to draw attention to herself.

Anyone have any ideas that I could use to avoid be ostracized as a Churchie?

I also need loopholes in the paladin code like:

Is it against the paladin code to not punish someone if they can serve the greater good as an informant and redeem themselves by helping the side of good and law?

Things like this would be incredibly helpful.

Sort of vengeful paladin but patient and willing to wait until the time is right to strike.

We also have a Ranger who is NG with favored enemy evil outsider so it's not as if I'm alone on this.

[ArqArturo]

As far as I know, if they're working to actively help you towards a greater good, I don't think it breaks the code.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Before the discussion of whether or not exploiting loopholes or vengeance is Paladin-like, starts up, I'll give what advice I can.

If you don't want to be considered a churchie, don't proselytize for the Church. Have your character spend time helping the poor or the sick, or doing work around towns. If church and government are separate, work more closely with the government than the church. You'll also want some way to hide your alignment for moments where you really want to be low key.

[Renegade Paladin]

The key is righteous, not self-righteous. Remember that at the end of the day, the paladin's job is championing the right and the good, not street preaching. No one even needs to know you're a paladin until the smiting comes out; just quietly do the right thing without prattling on about Heironeous/Torm/Iomedae/whoever while you're doing it and you'll be fine.

[Xerlith]

You should take a look at the Gray Guard paladin prestige class. It basically allows you for more... Gritty work without losing your Paladinhood.

[Keneth]

What does and does not break the code depends on your god and your GM. In Faiths of Purity you will find paladin codes for all main deities a paladin can follow (technically you can follow others, but really probably shouldn't).

Personally, paladins have lots of nice things in my games, but the primary rule is that the code is a guideline and each paladin has a personal goal they're trying to achieve. As long as they're working towards their goal and following the code to the best of their ability, they can compromise.

Obviously, they can't be Mr. I AM THE LAW, that's what inquisitors, hellknights, and other similar classes are for.

[GreenZ]

One of the main points I believe people never credit the Paladin's Code with is that the Paladin only has to try their best, not that they must succeed. There are only a small handful of things that are 'needed' to follow the Paladin's Code other than personal conviction.


A paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.


A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.

Beyond these very basic premises, everything else is based on personal conviction and a desire to do good as well as punish evil. In addition, nothing states that these must be done in any manner, including immediately. 'punish those who harm or threaten innocents' shouldn't always mean 'I need to start a fight with those evil doers right now' but can instead be a more subtle 'I need to prevent them from harming others' or even 'they will pay for their evil'

As long as a Paladin actively attempts to do good, they have no reason to fall. (Other than people being a butt about the Paladin Code.)


P.S. The fact that you are looking for 'loopholes' is an indicator that you likely do not understand the purpose of the Paladin's Code. It is a unique personal conviction that each Paladin has, not a unified written law.

[Spore]

So having a NG cleric of your own god is already off limits? o_O

[Reprimand]

If I were to take a position with the government what sort of role should I take on. Like a guard/captain?

I never noticed that it said attempt to do good, I always thought it was about results. Thank you for bringing that to my attention.

What does lawful good itself entail? am I never allowed to break a promise? Is lawful that drastic?

Also when I said loop holes I may have used the wrong word.

[Keneth]

What does lawful good itself entail? am I never allowed to break a promise? Is lawful that drastic?

Even paladins, the exemplars of lawful good behavior, are not obligated to keep every promise. But they want to, and they will if they can.

Absolutes are for denizens of those absolute planes. Devils will never break a promise for example (though they will find loopholes).

[Reprimand]

Good to know I'm not bound to keep a promise if circumstances change.

[hamishspence]

Absolutes are for denizens of those absolute planes. Devils will never break a promise for example (though they will find loopholes).

Might depend on the devil. Some lie a lot (Baalzebul is even nicknamed Lord of Lies as well as Lord of the Flies, in D&D).

[Keneth]

Might depend on the devil. Some lie a lot (Baalzebul is even nicknamed Lord of Lies as well as Lord of the Flies, in D&D).

Most devil's are compulsive liars, but they are compelled by nature to keep their end of a bargain, even if it was based on a lie. Devils are basically lawyers.

[hamishspence]

Given that it's possible to "win one's soul back from Hell" by proving in diabolical court that the bargain was reneged on (Fiendish Codex 2)- this suggests it does occasionally happen.

[Lord_Gareth]

Most devil's are compulsive liars, but they are compelled by nature to keep their end of a bargain, even if it was based on a lie. Devils are basically lawyers.

Noooooooooot quite true. Devils are obligated to uphold the law, yes - the Law Below. Certain behaviors are mandated by that law and it isn't their fault if you haven't done the (centuries) of reading up on how to properly negotiate with them.

[Winds of Nagual]

Be careful with 'the greater good argument.' That starts getting closer to CG and the notion of the ends justify the means.

[JusticeZero]

Lawful Good entails trying hard to do the right thing while staying on the right side of the law, being disciplined and generally putting "Doing what is right" over "Doing what I like" or "what is easy". That's basically it.
If you see a starving beggar stealing food, the Lawful thing is to stop them from stealing, the Good thing is to let them eat. The Lawful Good thing would probably be to stop them from stealing, stop the store owner from taking it out of the kid's hide, and buy them some food. Don't start looking for legalese. This isn't hard. Just be a good, law-abiding person.

[hamishspence]

Be careful with 'the greater good argument.' That starts getting closer to CG and the notion of the ends justify the means.
Pushed far enough, it can get into some strain of Evil.

Still, the example given- not punishing someone but instead giving them a chance to redeem themselves by acting as an informant- seems to me very in line with the "Good seeks to redeem more than to punish" theme BoED seemed to be trying to go for at times.

The Pathfinder rules on Association:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin

Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil.

don't mention "To Redeem" but I'd allow it.

[Keneth]

Given that it's possible to "win one's soul back from Hell" by proving in diabolical court that the bargain was reneged on (Fiendish Codex 2)- this suggests it does occasionally happen.

Possibly, but that's just conjecture. The Pact dictates that souls have a right to appeal, but I don't the book details any successful cases of appeals, and even if one were to make a compelling argument, it would probably be the result of a devil trying to fulfill its part of the bargain and failing according to the letter of the agreement, rather than intentionally not doing so, or a third party compelling the creature to sign a pact without the devil's knowledge.

None of this is Pathfinder lore though, so...

[Reprimand]

Excellent feed back so far. What sort of party "Plan A" stuff is common that would interfere with my alignment (stealing, lying, etc)? How should I help defuse or deter these ideas without creating an inter-party conflict?

You know, I can't just go "I can't do that because my code says so," every time it would basically make me the fly in the metaphorical soup every game.

[JusticeZero]

You're still thinking legalistically.

That won't get you where you want to go. Quit thinking "What specific clauses do I have to fulfill" and start trying to think of examples of people who do good things and are respected law-abiding members of the community. You're probably going to be a bit irked by things like theft ("Grrr, Haley, that poor merchant has to eat, too!"), slaughtering people that you didn't actually need to ("Guys, these guards are just doing their jobs. Can't we sneak around them instead?"), vigilanteism ("You know, we didn't actually SEE Ms. Lee poison the well, the evidence is sketchy at best, and I think everybody here is just getting a little bit bloodthirsty. She deserves a chance to prove her innocence here.") and other things of the sort where innocents are being needlessly hurt, even indirectly, and anarchy sown.

[hamishspence]

You're probably going to be a bit irked by things like theft ("Grrr, Haley, that poor merchant has to eat, too!"), slaughtering people that you didn't actually need to ("Guys, these guards are just doing their jobs. Can't we sneak around them instead?"), vigilanteism ("You know, we didn't actually SEE Ms. Lee poison the well, the evidence is sketchy at best, and I think everybody here is just getting a little bit bloodthirsty. She deserves a chance to prove her innocence here.") and other things of the sort where innocents are being needlessly hurt, even indirectly, and anarchy sown.

I like this description.

[Reprimand]

As a former rules lawyer/power gamer it's hard to stop thinking that way.

So less about the actual wording and more doing acts of good and law?

[Kudaku]

While we can give you general advice (and JusticeZero's advice in particular is excellent) it really depends on the "environment" you'll be playing in. If your GM is a stickler for the code that'll limit your options heavily.

I'd have a sitdown with the GM (face to face or over the net) and really hash out how he wants to handle your code - the way it's written is vague enough that depending on the reader it can be interpreted very strictly or very loosely, which is part of the reason why paladin threads are so common on forums like these.

[Ravens_cry]

You are the sword of Justice but also the hand of mercy.
After all, sometimes the best way to eliminate an enemy is to make a friend.
That doesn't mean you are a push over. You need to know when someone is just putting you on and when someone is genuinely repentant.

[Keneth]

You are the sword of Justice but also the hand of mercy.

Some paladins (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/oathbound-paladin/oath-of-vengeance) are just the sword. And a vengeful one at that. :smalltongue:

[Ailowynn]

My protip for RPing Paladins is to pretend you're a Cleric, but with a bigger stick. (And you can be a cleric of a cause, rather than a deity).

As for the Paladin's code...it's really up to the GM. I'd recommend working together to write it out and put up some clear guidelines.

Also, have you looked at the Inquisitor class? It might work a bit better for this concept. Its flavor is more similar to what you wabt, and there's no stupid code of conduct to worry about.

[lsfreak]

Anyone have any ideas that I could use to avoid be ostracized as a Churchie.

Sure. Ostracize the church for being overly political, for caring more about the details of belief than whether they do good or evil. It always seems weird to me that the assumption is that paladins are intricately tied to a church when religions are a huge source of interpersonal strife. A paladin that ignores the church entirely, and openly speaks against the ills they do in the name of their faith, seems a much closer representation of someone who is the mortal embodiment of Law and Good, compared to someone who is beholden to the tenants of a specific faith.

[Ravens_cry]

Some paladins (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/oathbound-paladin/oath-of-vengeance) are just the sword. And a vengeful one at that. :smalltongue:
It's too bad what they get is so awesome because, to me, that is not what a Paladin is about.

[Kane0]

Play as Good Guy Greg with a suit of armor.

[Keneth]

It's too bad what they get is so awesome because, to me, that is not what a Paladin is about.

I like my paladins (and antipaladins) in all shapes an sizes though. Plus, holy vengeance is a thing. :smallbiggrin:

[ArqArturo]

I like my paladins (and antipaladins) in all shapes an sizes though. Plus, holy vengeance is a thing. :smallbiggrin:

Like one player said while roleplaying a half-orc paladin yesterday "There be time of War, there be time of Not-War, and also there be time of WAAAAAAGHH!!" :smallbiggrin:.

[Ravens_cry]

I like my paladins (and antipaladins) in all shapes an sizes though. Plus, holy vengeance is a thing. :smallbiggrin:
Not holy vengence, at least to me.
If I want to play a greyer paladin, I'll play a full BAB cleric (from the old campaign setting book.)

[HylianKnight]

1) Always be Good. If doing what is Good conflicts with being Lawful, choose the Good. You should always try to find the best situation within the confines of both, but if your in those situations that force you to clearly favor one over the other, pick good. No one can blame you for it when your forced to pick.

2) Never forget how loosely defined that code of yours is. It's not a rulebook, it's a demarkation of a few loosely defined boundaries. One of the things that has always amazed me is seeing a player RP an awesome LG character through an entire campaign, only to pick up a Paladin sometime down the road and fall into the Lawful Stupid Jackass territory immediately because he 'had to follow the code.' Meanwhile his last character could've been a Paladin and never fallen once! No where the boundaries, but never forget the massive amount of freedom you have within it.

3) Like all alignments, the LG system only works because there are so many characters that can exist within it. A Paladin can be The Vengeful Sword, The Benevolent Protector, The man forged in war, or the one who wants nothing more than peace. Mother Theresa with a sword, or the example the Good does not mean Nice. Pick whatever character YOU want to play, and have fun with it, the code should barely come up.

[Renegade Paladin]

Not holy vengence, at least to me.
If I want to play a greyer paladin, I'll play a full BAB cleric (from the old campaign setting book.)
It's worth noting that vengeance and revenge are different things. Vengeance is synonymous with retribution, not revenge, and what exactly do you think paladins do? :smallconfused: